Police: Elected Commissioners

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Dear

Thursday 4th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, issues of policing cannot be entirely non-political. I am conscious that local government has had elements of corruption, which is one of the problems of a democratic system. Perhaps the noble Lord would prefer an appointed system as well as an appointed House of Lords.

[Lord Dear]

My Lords, I am sure that the Minister will agree that we should welcome any attempt to ensure that public concerns are better addressed by chief police officers and that this proposal should be considered carefully, while at the same time recognising the wide-ranging sensitivities that exist. At this admittedly early stage, I ask the Minister to reassure me on two points: first, that the operational independence of chief police officers will be protected absolutely; and secondly that, given that an elected commissioner might not be able to operate without support, consideration will be given to examining the case for having other elected persons in place to support the PCC.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the process of consultation is intended to ensure that we hear all the voices on the proposals; the noble Lord may be aware that the Home Secretary met the chief constables yesterday. There is no intention to undermine the operational independence of chief constables. The proposals in the policing White Paper, which I am sure many noble Lords have read, are that there will be consultative police and crime panels made up of magistrates and representatives of the local authorities alongside the directly elected police commissioners.

Policing

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Dear

Monday 26th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dear]

My Lords, I should first remind the House that I served for more than 30 years in police forces in this country—in one of the smallest and, indeed, in the two biggest forces. I also currently hold three non-executive chairmanships of companies that have some sort of interface with the police service, although I hasten to add not directly related to the issues that have been mentioned today.

I welcome this Statement. I should say immediately and it will not be any surprise to those listening that I respect and greatly admire the police service, both for its history and for what it does today. However, there is no doubt in my mind that there has been a need for a top-to-bottom, root-and-branch overhaul of the functions of the police service for at least the last two decades and probably longer. These proposals address only some of those issues, but it is I believe a good start and I look for more to come in the future.

First, one needs to recognise that the police have slipped quite badly in terms of public confidence, and a good deal of the blame for that must come from the issue of bureaucracy in general, in the broadest sense. About 10 days ago Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary, in conjunction with the Audit Commission, published a damning report on the back-office function of the police. It has grown to enormous proportions. It has been indicated that that, coupled with the growth of specialist groups, must change. Therefore, the moves in the Statement today to support a retreat from micromanagement and to cut central targets have to be applauded.

So far as the central crime agency—

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I remind you that the rules on Statements apply. People should make short interventions in order to leave time for others to come in.

[Lord Dear]

As for the National Crime Agency, I support what is being said there. I have supported border policing, working in conjunction with UKBA, for some time.

The nub of the whole problem for onlookers is with elected commissioners, and I seek two reassurances from the Minister. In principle, I give qualified support to that proposal, which amounts to a revamp or modernisation of current police authority structures, which have stood the test of time for the past 50 years. Times have changed and this may be the time to look again at the role of police authorities, but the devil is in the detail. I ask the Minister to comment on the issue of hire and fire. Hiring will need very careful handling at a time when the whole question of police leadership is under the microscope and the need is even greater to ensure that there is selection of the right person for the right job and that careers are managed not only for the benefit of the individual but to the advantage of the community. On the issue of firing I seek a very firm reassurance from the Minister. If there is the power to fire, reserve powers must be given to the Home Secretary to endorse that, or the chief officer will be at the mercy of single-issue politics and extremist groups. Comment has been made about operational independence not being damaged, and I accept that, but I seek reassurance, particularly on the issue of hire and fire. Overall, I welcome the Statement and look forward to the debates that will follow.