Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Agnew of Oulton

Report stage
Tuesday 20th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

My Lords, I shall speak to my Amendment 73A, which I apologise is a late manuscript amendment, with two supporting amendments. This is not in any way a change of the wording of my original Amendment 89, but I apologise to my noble friend the Minister that this was tabled only at around lunchtime today as I was only alerted by the Public Bill Office very late last night.

To remind noble Lords what I am worried about, which this amendment seeks to deal with, the amendment requires Companies House to publish information about trusts obtained in the newly created register of overseas interests that is not available for scrutiny. Nearly half of all trusts now registered with Companies House are shown to own assets anonymously. That is the background, and we heard just now from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, about the so-called lacuna which is being advertised brazenly by large firms of solicitors—I have seen the same briefing notes and these are not back-street operators. That is the picture today.

My noble friend the Minister has tried very hard to deal with this within the limitations of his department, let alone his own ability to influence what seems to be a very entrenched position across government. But the amendment that he is proposing simply does not cut the mustard because it talks about “may” use a power—not “will”, “can” or “does”, but “may”. The other concern is that it then talks about a consultation, but we know that consultations are the oldest trick in the book, frankly, for kicking cans down the road, so I do not get much reassurance from that.

I also have practical concerns also about how the—albeit improved—access to the register is likely to work in a practical way. We have seen with HMRC how badly it works at the moment, and it is very hard to get information. It seems that, under the new regime, we might be able to get information only one request at a time, which means that it will be impossible to get a full picture of what is going on, so you will not be able to carry out large-scale investigations to uncover wrongdoing.

I do not like to put forward a sour note, because I know how hard my noble friend has worked on this Bill and in his engagement with all noble Lords, particularly me, but I really feel that, as my noble and learned friend Lord Garnier said in Committee, we can register as much as we like, but if we cannot see what is inside then the whole thing is a futile exercise. I ask my noble friend the Minister to reconsider. I am afraid I am minded to divide the House on this, unless I hear something convincing.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, I am neither a lawyer nor a company formation specialist although, in a career as an international policy researcher, I have not only dealt with the Crown dependencies and some of the overseas territories but also spent some time in conferences with senior Swiss bankers, from which I benefited both from learning an enormous amount about their charm and discretion and from eating a number of wonderful meals.

In opening, the Minister said there will be nowhere to hide; the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, has said there will be always somewhere else to hide. At present we are engaged in doing our best to make it more difficult, and as difficult as possible, to hide who owns what, particularly when they are overseas, in the expectation that we will never succeed entirely in catching everyone because the cascade abilities of trusts in one place, partly owned by trusts in somewhere else, will always defeat us in some instances. We on these Benches will support Amendment 72 and Amendment 89 if it is pressed.

The statement that the Government will consult further on how to ensure that these measures can be used to maximise transparency is encouraging, but I share the limited scepticism expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, of how far that will take us when we are involved in this rather important Bill. We are in support of the maximum possible transparency. We know that the purpose of a great many overseas trusts is precisely to conceal, and we wish to extend that transparency as far as possible. Therefore, we on these Benches will support these amendments.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Agnew of Oulton

Committee stage
Monday 27th March 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

My Lords, I shall speak to my amendment on designated persons. The Minister is already dealing with this issue in some of his own amendments, but I stress that mine would be a slight tweak to the system that would have enormous power over the very few people who would be impacted. Last year only 1,200 people were designated for the Russian activities—across the whole world, not just by us—so we are talking about low numbers of thousands of people relative to the 5 million on the register. We also know that some of these bad actors got wind of their designation before it happened and were able to reorganise their financial affairs, so the horse had well and truly bolted by the time we rumbled into action. This slight amendment would give much more transparency into what these people were doing and allow the enforcement agencies to act accordingly.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, I note that these various amendments cover England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but the UK financial system very much includes Jersey and Guernsey for a great many company formations and associated company forms. I wonder whether at this stage the Minister could explain whether or not the disqualification of persons from being directors within the UK will in time apply to the Crown dependencies, or whether one will still be able to act as a director for companies formed in the Crowd dependencies while disqualified within the UK.