Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Baroness Stowell of Beeston

2nd reading
Wednesday 8th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow that fascinating speech. I think I need to read it again before I fully understand it. I had not heard it on the five previous occasions on which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, made it. Halfway through this debate, the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, commented that there seemed to be an extraordinary amount of consensus. That carried on through the rest of the debate. The question behind all the speeches is how serious are the Government about making sure that this Bill becomes an Act which successfully tackles economic crime, rather than one making another tiny step—a shuffle perhaps—in the direction of saying that it will, but not actually managing to implement it?

We have heard a range of arguments that the Government should accept amendments on several issues to strengthen the Bill, in so far as they can be fitted within its remit: SLAPPs, whistleblowers, greater transparency, asset seizures for reparations, tighter enforcement of the register of overseas entities and penalties for failure to prevent fraud or for assisting fraud actors and activities.

On the question of fees, we do not need that in the Bill, as the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, remarked. I disagree with him on whether Companies House needs more powers. It needs more powers, and for that it needs more resources. What we want is an assurance from the Government that they will substantially raise the fees. I sat thinking with amazement that the fees for Companies House are the way they are. With my wife, I am working through the process of downsizing our house after 45 years in one place. I gather that this is in line with the Government’s preferences and policy. They would like people our age to move out of their large houses into smaller flats so that housing problems are moderated. Yesterday, I sorted out how much it will cost me in stamp duty, conveyancing fees et cetera. In comparison with the fee for registering a company, there is rather a large gap.

We all know—I say this to our Conservative friends—that over the past 12 years a number of regulatory bodies have had their budgets slashed. The Environment Agency’s budget has been slashed by 80% and—surprise, surprise—it does not seem to have kept up with discharges of sewage by water companies. The Charity Commission, as the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, will know, had its budget severely cut, and that badly affected some of the things it had previously done to regulate and advise charities.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)]

Forgive me for interrupting. I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I ought to make the point that the Charity Commission’s budget was very severely cut, but it has been increased. Its operating budget is now pretty healthy. It might not be healthy compared with a lot of other regulators, such as Ofcom, when you look at what is required of the Charity Commission, but it had a quite dramatic reversal of its fortunes in terms of its operating costs.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

I take that correction happily. I was the Lords Minister responsible for charities from 2012 to 2015 and remember these arguments very painfully.

I hope that the Conservatives will say to those in their party, like our last Prime Minister, who say that the answer to every question is tax cuts and for that you have to cut spending wherever you can that there are some areas in which sufficient resources from whatever means—whether fees or taxes—provide very substantial public benefits and sometimes economic advantages as well. This is clearly one of them.

The noble Lord, Lord Clarke, added that greater accountability for Companies House is an important factor that we need to get into this Bill if we can. My career was in dealing with international issues. When I look at a Bill, I always start by asking where the international dimension is dealt with. The international dimension in this Bill is remarkably thin. I said to the noble Lord, Lord Clarke, that I could challenge him on Clause 190 when we get to it. The extent clause is always the one you have to start by looking at.

As the noble Lord, Lord Gold, said, a lot of economic crime is extraterritorial. When I briefly dealt with some police matters at the beginning of the coalition, I recall being taken around Yorkshire to discuss organised crime. The first statement that the chief constable made was, “There is no domestic organised crime”. All organised crime is cross-border—it is international—and, for that, one clearly needs international co-operation. The Conservative Peer who said in a debate here two years ago that we did not need Europol because we had Interpol and that that provided everything we needed did not understand the complexity of the co-operation one needs among national authorities. I, and I think many of us, would appreciate a briefing from the team on how the pursuit of economic crime will be managed in co-operation with other countries if the Government are going to be more serious about this. There is a brief reference to the Financial Action Task Force in the Explanatory Memorandum, but the whole ethos of coping with a massive transnational problem is almost absent from the Bill.

This leads me on to the question of the Crown dependencies and the overseas territories, which the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, raised. I have been interested in this for many years. The frustration is that they fall between the domestic and the international. One is usually assured that one does not have to legislate for them—indeed, that it is improper to do so—but we ask them to follow British domestic legislation. Three years later, we are told that most of them have not got round to doing so yet, but they will, soon. I recall going to one Crown dependency many years ago and gathering from the chief Minister’s enthusiastic briefing that their chief message to me was, “We are so much better than the other two”. That is not a good area. I strongly suggest that this House needs to consider a sessional committee to look at the relationship between the Crown dependencies, the overseas territories and the United Kingdom. It is always being pushed to one side. It is dealt with by a junior Minister in the Ministry of Justice or the FCDO, but some very knotty issues come with it.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevens, remarked that half the registered overseas entities come from the BVI. The largest numbers among the others, adding up to more than three-quarters, came from Jersey, the Isle of Man and Guernsey, and then, I think, Luxembourg. This leads me on to the other point made by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks: Luxembourg is of course also a tax haven and it has its own interests. I must look at that ECJ judgment. I am certainly for transparency against privacy when one draws the balance, and it sounds as though the ECJ has been persuaded on this occasion to support privacy against transparency. It seems to me that corporate privacy should be valued a great deal less than personal privacy, but I will look at the case. International co-operation is clearly an essential part of where we need to have this. The British Government’s deep reluctance to assert sovereignty over the overseas territories and Crown dependencies is very odd for a Government who have spent a lot of time saying that they want to take back control.

A number of noble Lords have talked about the role of enablers within our system, and I am a bit partisan on that issue. Liz Truss talked about the liberal establishment that blocked her radical reforms, but if one is to talk about the enablers who have assisted oligarchs and others—the Intelligence and Security Committee’s Russia report had some extremely strong language on that—one must acknowledge that they were at the heart of our financial, accountancy and legal establishment in the City and that they successfully penetrated the Conservative Party. That is a real problem for us, and we must do something much more strongly about it. When I criticised sleaze within the Government the other week, the noble Lord, Lord Clarke, said to me, “This is a different Government.” I say to him: to demonstrate that we now have a different Government, we need now to take some stronger action, with the Bill, on that problem.

The noble Lords, Lord Leigh and Lord Browne of Ladyton, my noble friend Lord Fox and others all praised the quality of debate on the Bill in the Commons, adding that the Ministers there were clearly listening to concerns and criticisms. I hope that the Ministers here will take very much the same attitude and accept that the Bill can be improved and strengthened, as everyone here has asked. I found it dispiriting, as others have, that on several Bills over the last two Sessions, Ministers here have been told to resist amendments as vigorously as they can. On one recent occasion, a Lords Minister told me that they had to go back on a concession made in the Lords because there was resistance to it from her party in the Commons.

This is a debate in which we have had remarkable consensus on all Benches. We are concerned with the quality and reputation of this country, and we think that the Bill can make a significant difference on that in a number of areas. Let us all pursue the further progress of the Bill with that in mind. I look forward to the conversations which I hope that the Ministers will offer us before we reach Committee, and then again between Committee and Report. Let us see what we can do to put on the statute book a strengthened and improved Act on economic crime and transparency.

National Security Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Baroness Stowell of Beeston

Committee stage
Wednesday 11th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as the chairman of the Communications and Digital Select Committee. It was because I was chairing a meeting of that committee that I was unable to speak at Second Reading.

I will speak briefly about the potential effect and unintended consequences of this important legislation on investigative journalism. Before I go any further, I should say that I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, for the opportunity to debate this matter. As my noble friend Lord Black already explained, comprehensively and very powerfully, the potential chilling effect on legitimate journalism is of particular concern. That is real and we must find a way of avoiding it, without diluting the intentions and objectives of this Bill, which I, like other noble Lords, support.

I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister for meeting me and others, with some of his officials, in December to discuss our concerns. I look to him for reassurance that the Government remain alive to this problem and open to discussion. I am not sure whether Amendment 66A from the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, is the answer to the problem; it may need to be combined with Amendments 65 and 66, which have already been debated. As my noble friend Lord Black already said, what we need here is a holistic approach to the point in question, which is around making sure that important investigative journalism is able to continue.

As a result of this very important legislation, I would not want, for example, deficiencies in military equipment that cost the lives of our Armed Forces not to be exposed. That example was put to me by some of the media organisations that have been in touch. They reminded me that that particular piece of journalism led to a change in the then Government’s commitment to defence expenditure and, subsequently, a ministerial apology—albeit several years later in a public inquiry. I do not want us to legislate in a way that risks journalists not exposing these important matters, if they fear that doing so would lead to them committing a crime that would attract serious penalties. I support the arguments that my noble friend Lord Black has put forward, and I look forward to my noble friend the Minister’s response and, as I have already said, to our continuing discussions on this matter.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, my name is on Amendment 70 and I want to speak to Amendments 68 and 71. I stress that, in getting this Bill right, we need to make sure that it does not lead to a level of overreporting that swamps the Home Office, with a great deal of cynicism and a negative reaction from those who are asked to do the reporting. In the last week, I have received a dozen representations, not just from media and academic sources—the liberal metropolitan elite, whom the Minister may regard as not terribly important—but from the City and commercial enterprises, which are as worried about the negative impact that the Bill could have on their international activities as those in universities are.

I admire the speed with which the Minister talks when he responds to our questions, but I hope that he is carefully considering the reasoned and sometimes expert criticisms that we have of this Bill, that he is more concerned to get the Bill right than to get it through and that, between Committee and Report, we will have some long, further conversations on particular aspects of the Bill about which the House has been concerned.

To expand on that a little, I thought the Minister was a little flippant about my suggestion that there were non-state threats from the right in a number of countries, including the United States. He may have been following the attempted coup in Brazil. The reports of it that I read suggested that the Conservative Political Action Coalition in the United States was actively tweeting in support of Bolsonaro and may well have provided funds, and that Steve Bannon and his organisation were also actively in support of Bolsonaro. These things should worry us as much as terrorist and state threats, and this is another dimension that we need to think about in this Bill.

We know that foreign money has come into this country, that there have been some very odd things, such as the Conservative Friends of Russia element, in which the right has appeared to work with what we regard as the foreign left. Those sorts of things need considering. I look forward to the letter that the Minister will be sending me shortly—I hope—on the question of spiritual injury, which the discussion last week suggested is unenforceable and almost undefinable, and therefore should not be in the Bill. I also hope that we will have further discussions on the impact on diaspora communities and dual nationals, because the extent to which our diaspora communities have relations with parties in the other countries to which they have links, and with the Governments of those foreign countries—be it Pakistan, Israel or wherever—is going to be complicated further by the Bill. We need to get to the end with an Act which commands public acceptance and public consent. Incidentally, it is likely to come into effect just before the next election, and if there was an adverse reaction to its implementation, the Government are likely to suffer.

Commonwealth Countries and Overseas Territories: European Union

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Baroness Stowell of Beeston

Tuesday 14th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, we have yet to hear from the Liberal Democrat Benches and there are other minor parties also trying to intervene. I suggest that we start with the Lib Dem Front Bench and see where we get to after that.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, do the Government recognise that if we were to restrict access to the other 450 million people in the European Union and open access to immigration for the 2.3 billion people in the Commonwealth—with the rapidly increasing population in west Africa and south Asia—immigration to this country would be likely to increase, rather than decrease?

European Council

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Baroness Stowell of Beeston

Monday 21st December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, a Private Notice Question is not the same as a Statement so we do not have to go round the Front Benches in the same way as we do on a Statement. I do not know whether the noble Lord might want to give way to my noble friend Lady McIntosh.

Renewable Energy: Solar

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Baroness Stowell of Beeston

Wednesday 14th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, it rains a lot in Britain, and we have a great deal of potential water power here, which can help us—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, I am so sorry; because of the dispute, and time is up, we will have to move on.

Syria: Refugees and Counterterrorism

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Baroness Stowell of Beeston

Monday 7th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

If your Lordships prefer, I will say “Government”. This democratically elected Government have decided that this country will support those in need through the approach that I have outlined. Indeed, that has been our policy for a considerable time. We have given refuge to 5,000 people from Syria since the crisis started. Alongside the refuge that we are offering, we have made a huge contribution to support those people affected by this crisis in the region. That is not something that can be said about all the other member states in the European Union. We think that our approach is the right one for the refugees, and the right one in the long-term interests of achieving stability in that area and supporting people in need.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, I regret deeply the absence of any reference in the Statement by the Government to co-operation with other countries. At least in July before we rose, the Prime Minister’s Statement referred to the need for Britain to operate within a broad international coalition. Does not the noble Baroness accept that this is a common problem that we share above all with our neighbours on the European continent and that there has to be common action, particularly European action? Does she not accept, for example, that what is happening in Calais, which directly affects us, is part of this same movement of peoples across Europe; that we depend on co-operation with the French and others in this respect; and that co-operation, not unilateral action by Britain alone, is where we have to take things forward from here?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Lord makes a good point about Calais. Clearly, we have co-operated with the French over the summer to address the situation that worsened earlier in the summer. The Home Secretary was one of the Home Affairs and Justice Ministers who called for the meeting that will take place next week because we think it right that Europe should co-operate more. However, those within the Schengen agreement are not operating in a co-ordinated, coherent way. We want to support them but we are very clear that we do not believe it is in the best interests of this country or those who are most in need to join the action that has been taken by other member states. We are co-operating all the time with our partners in Europe by helping them strengthen their operations on the borders and trying to provide them with the expertise they need. However, in the end they have decided that they want to pursue the course they are following. We believe that by pursuing that course they are increasing the flow of refugees from Syria and that is putting people’s lives at risk unnecessarily. We think that a much better approach is the one we are pursuing, which is to provide refuge but to do so for people from the camps directly.

G7

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Baroness Stowell of Beeston

Wednesday 10th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I do not think that my noble friend is suggesting that we are at the point where we might extend the G7 to include China. But he is right about China being so important to the future prosperity and security of the world at large. Again, this is an area where we have been very much in the forefront in recognising the growing importance of China. Before the general election, the UK was the first G7 country to join the AIIB, which is the new Chinese version of the World Bank. Because of our leadership there, other G7 countries have joined that bank.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, I am sure the noble Baroness will be pleased to be reminded that the current EU Trade Commissioner is a woman, Cecilia Malmström, so she should therefore have said “her predecessor” when referring to the EU Trade Commissioner.

On TTIP, the transatlantic trade association, I hope the Government are well aware that there is an active campaign on social media and in the NGO community against this whole transatlantic free trade agreement as a capitalist ramp that will give multinational companies access to our markets at all sorts of cost. That is as irrational as much of the campaign for Britain to leave the European Union. Are the Government planning any major information campaign to combat that underlying distrust of the entire transatlantic trade agreement?

On the EU, are the Government also proposing to use the balance of competences exercise of the last coalition Government to inform the public, given that I read in the newspapers every day of major claims being made by members of the Conservative Party for the repatriation of substantial powers from the European Community, for which the balance of competences exercise produced no evidence?

Lastly, we all welcome the Government’s views on corruption, and we all see again from the FIFA example that the overseas territories and Crown dependencies under British sovereignty form part of a network of transnational corruption. Are the Government planning to take powers to tighten controls over overseas financial centres under British sovereignty?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, there is quite a lot there, but first I must thank the noble Lord for correcting me on the current EU Trade Commissioner. He follows these issues far more closely than I do myself and, unfortunately, I had not spotted from the name in my brief that I had got the gender incorrect, so I am pleased to be told that the Trade Commissioner is a woman.

On TTIP, the noble Lord is absolutely right to say that there are a huge number of benefits in the agreement for small businesses because it will help them to export, as well as for consumers generally in terms of cheaper goods and increased trade. I will reflect on his comment about the promotion of the benefits of TTIP, but that leads me back to the point I made earlier, which is that because there is so much to be gained from this trade deal, I think there are some misplaced concerns about issues which are not relevant. They are not ones that we need to be concerned about because we have got the necessary assurances. I know that the noble Lord was very much involved in the balance of competences exercise. I will look at it again.

On corruption and the overseas territories, although I may not be able to find the specifics, I can make the general point that one of the things that we as a Government have done in terms of increasing transparency is to ensure that the Crown dependencies are part of the first wave of the new arrangements for ensuring that transactions are properly recorded as part of one of our new measures to increase transparency, so they are very much part of the effort to make progress in this area.

Implications of Devolution for England

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Baroness Stowell of Beeston

Tuesday 16th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am a little bit baffled. A lot is happening in terms of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and the Opposition are not arguing that those changes should be delayed for a constitutional convention. Arising from the result of the Scottish referendum is the need for us to address an important issue, which is about English votes for English laws. That can be addressed quickly and there are some options for consideration. It comes off the back of several reports on the issue of English votes for English laws over many years. This is not about ruling out a constitutional convention or any other bigger issues that might arise in due course; but the issue of English votes for English laws needs to be addressed right now. It can be addressed and it should not be delayed.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, we now have 20 minutes of questions. I remind noble Lords that we should have brief interventions and questions to enable the largest number of people to contribute.

EU Council

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Baroness Stowell of Beeston

Monday 27th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, for her comments in response to mine on Afghanistan and Ukraine.

In starting my response to the points that she has made, it is important for me to make it clear that the Prime Minister played a leading role in Brussels last week on climate change and Ebola, two very important matters on the agenda at the Council meeting. He achieved very good results that were good for Europe and for the United Kingdom; they felt right and they felt fair. This is in stark contrast to the way in which the previous Government approached some of the negotiations on matters such as climate change in the past. The same cannot be said, though, in terms of it being right or fair, when we consider what happened on the EU budget surcharge.

Taking the questions that the noble Baroness put to me, and starting with climate change, the target of at least a 40% reduction in carbon emissions has been described as ambitious, but it is a very sensible one. The way that we are approaching this, in not having the subtargets as binding agreements on member states, is very important. However, we are now in the best possible position to push our international partners, such as America and China, to bring forward ambitious climate pledges to reach a global deal next year.

On Ebola, the noble Baroness was right to say that the Prime Minister succeeded in ensuring that we attracted a financial commitment from member states, so Europe as a whole now will be contributing €1 billion to fighting Ebola. However, it is not just about the money; we also got a commitment that other European member states will help with their healthcare workers and ensure that they travel to affected countries. This is something that we need to continue to apply pressure on and ensure that we all do our fair share in ensuring that Ebola is properly tackled out there in west Africa.

As far as the budget is concerned and the points that she made about the surcharge, I do not think that it is right to focus on who knew what and when. What people really care about is how much is being demanded and the fact that this amount is unprecedented in the level that is being sought by the EU. It is true to say that there is a process every year that is standard in calculating these contributions, but it has never led to the kind of demand that we have seen on this occasion. Importantly, with regard to the level that the UK is being asked to contribute, no member state will know what amount it is being required to contribute in terms of its net contribution until it is clear what amount the EU is going to return, having identified what the countries’ gross contributions are. It is the net contribution that is key in this context, and it is that net contribution that the Prime Minister has made clear is absolutely unacceptable. He has made it clear that the way in which the European Commission has behaved in going about this process is not right, and that is something that we will ensure is properly addressed in the way in which the Prime Minister has described today.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, we now have 20 minutes for questions on the Statement. I remind noble Lords that it is not a short debate. Noble Lords are asked to keep their questions short so as to enable others to follow.