Great British Energy Bill

Debate between Lord Vaux of Harrowden and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Committee stage
Tuesday 17th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, this is a very interesting set of amendments, and I am grateful to all noble Lords who tabled amendments and have spoken in this debate. Clearly, as we said before, the overarching aim for the statement of strategic priorities is to ensure that Great British Energy operates in line with, and delivers on, the priorities set out by the Government. That is proper for the Government to do.

It is clearly important that we have a means through which to influence the strategic plans of Great British Energy. Equally, we want Great British Energy to have as much operational independence as possible within the parameters of Clauses 3 and 5. Inevitably, that makes me cautious about a number of the amendments proposed during this debate, which one way or another seek either to constrain the powers of GBE or to direct where it ought to focus its priorities and energies.

Amendment 46 tabled by my noble friend Lady Young proposes an addition to Clause 5 to ensure that Great British Energy will reduce greenhouse gas emissions, improve energy efficiency, ensure security of supply and include community ownership. As she said, we debated some of those matters on our first day in Committee. I agree with her about the vagaries of groupings, which after 27 years of membership of your Lordships’ House remain an eternal mystery to me, as we are enabled to repeat many of the debates already held. Indeed, the noble Earl, Lord Russell, has promised to come back to the very issue of community energy when we meet again on some distant future date in mid-January.

The Bill clearly provides a statutory basis for facilitating and encouraging the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions, improving energy efficiency and ensuring the security of supply of energy under the objects set out in Clause 3. Clearly the statement of strategic priorities must be consistent with these objects. I understand the point that the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, made about prices; there was an Oral Question today on the impact these are having on UK businesses. He will know that, as I said then, the highest price for energy was achieved under his Government’s watch.

The noble Lord, Lord Offord, also spoke on that topic, and talked about security of supply. I think he very much reinforced what the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, said when the latter raised the issue of the sun not shining and the wind not blowing, and the resulting reliance on gas. In our aim to move towards clean power by 2030 we envisage using renewables much more than currently. However, we also need nuclear as an essential baseload for our energy generation, and gas as the flexible energy generation which you can turn on and off. Currently gas is unabated, but with CCUS it will largely become abated. That is the way we see ourselves going forward, along with having long-term energy storage as set out in our clean power action plan.

On North Sea oil and gas—again, the noble Lord, Lord Offord, has raised this with me a number of times—I repeat that we are committed to a just transition, working with industry and the workers involved themselves to recognise the importance of the sector, which will operate for decades to come. We remain in close engagement with the industry on these matters. Like the noble Earl, Lord Russell, my essential response to these issues about energy price reductions and the need for long-term price stability is that reliance on international fossil fuels, and the markets that operate in the way they do, is simply not the way to solve them.

I turn to the specifics in Amendments 47 to 50 and 51A, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Offord, my noble friend Lord Whitty, and the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, and the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, although he did not speak to them. These amendments would require the statement of strategic priorities to include targets relating to consumer bills, jobs and supply chains, and to include reference to community energy schemes.

On the general principle, we want Great British Energy to operate independently. The Bill is focused on making the minimum necessary provisions to support establishing the company—that is why the Bill is constructed in the way it is. Normally, Governments are accused of trying to micromanage the institutions they are responsible for, but here the Government are saying that GBE needs to have as much operational independence as it can within the constraints of Clauses 3 and 5. However, some noble Lords wish to constrain, in one way or another, what Great British Energy should do. We are resistant to that as a general matter of principle.

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

I am rather baffled by the Minister’s argument. The Government are going to publish a statement of strategic priorities, but if Great British Energy is going to be independent why does it need such a thing? Presumably the statement of strategic priorities will point the company in the right direction, but the implication of the Minister’s argument is that it is going to be incredibly thin. Is that correct?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

I do not really know why the noble Lord is baffled by what I said. I thought I clearly said that we wish Great British Energy to have as much operational independence as possible, within the constraints of Clauses 3 and 5. At this stage, I cannot tell him what will be in the statement of strategic priorities, because it is being worked on, but it will have sufficient detail to make absolutely clear the Government’s priorities within the constraints I have suggested, while allowing Great British Energy the breadth and room to move in the way it thinks best.

On the issue of jobs, which my noble friend Lord Whitty was absolutely right to raise, all the organisations he mentioned have a role to play to ensure not just that we create the required jobs but that we can fill them. The issue is not so much lacking jobs for the future but enabling enough people to come forward to be given the right training and skills to fill them as effectively as possible. There is a clear message in the action plan we published last week:

“The wider transition to net zero is expected to support hundreds of thousands of jobs, with Clean Power 2030 playing a key part in stimulating a wealth of new jobs and economic opportunities across the country. These jobs will cross a range of skill levels and occupations, including technical engineers at levels 4-7 … along with electrical, welding, and mechanical trades at levels 2-7, and managerial roles including project and delivery managers at levels 4-7. Many of these occupations are already in high demand across other sectors”.


We have within the department the Office for Clean Energy Jobs, whose role is to co-ordinate action to develop a skilled workforce to support and develop our clean power mission.

I should mention the nuclear industry. I am at risk of repeating myself, but other noble Lords have enjoyed doing that during our deliberation. The Nuclear Skills Taskforce calculated that we need 40,000 extra people working in the nuclear sector—civil and defence— by 2030. That is in five years’ time. That goes up into the 2040s. There is a huge job to be done, and I believe it is my department’s role to work with industry and all the other organisations to spearhead that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

There was one other question I asked the Minister which he has not answered, which is whether the strategic priorities document will be accompanied by an impact assessment. The impact assessment we have with this Bill basically says that there are no benefits or costs because all it does is create the company, so we are effectively going to go through this process of creating something that can spend £8.3 billion with no impact assessment if that does not happen. Will there perhaps be an impact assessment that accompanies it?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, at this stage, I cannot answer that because it is still to be decided as part of the work that we are taking forward in relation to drafting the statement.

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. Before I sum up, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Howell, that I am not against this Bill. The problem we have here is the lack of any detail in it and the lack of any scrutiny once we have that detail, which is what the Constitution Committee pointed out. As the noble Earl, Lord Russell, pointed out, there is a high degree of unanimity around the House that the current situation set out in the Bill in that respect is really not adequate and that we need a greater level of parliamentary involvement in what will be the core element of this Bill: what GBE is going to do.

I take on board the points that the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, made about secondary legislation. I agree, but it is what we have at the moment, so we have little choice but to work with it. I would love to see a change to the way secondary legislation is debated, and it should be amendable, but we have a way to go before we come there.

There were plenty of ideas in this group as to how we might improve the scrutiny. I do not think any of us are wedded to any one of them. I am encouraged by what the Minister says about listening to the Constitution Committee and his belief in parliamentary scrutiny. I therefore hope that we can have some useful and constructive discussions between now and Report on this subject and come up with something that we can all agree on as an appropriate level of parliamentary scrutiny on this most critical aspect of the Bill. If we do not, I am absolutely confident that we will come back to this on Report. For now, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 51.

Great British Energy Bill

Debate between Lord Vaux of Harrowden and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Committee stage
Tuesday 3rd December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, it was more than two. I can quote Prime Minister May, and I acknowledge her leadership in this country being the first to enshrine the 2050 net-zero carbon target. Prime Minister Johnson only recently addressed COP 26 in Glasgow; I think we all acknowledge the leadership the noble Lord, Lord Sharma, showed there. The noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, announced to the UN the £11.6 billion in international climate finance for the period 2021-22. Although we are having this friendly discussion about future energy policy, there is still some consensus on the need to decarbonise our energy supply, and Great British Energy is part of the way we are going to do it.

The key thing in the structure of the Bill is the objectives set in Clause 3. They will be informed by the statement of strategic priorities that Great British Energy will operate in, making sure that it will be aligned with the Government’s priorities. We have been clear that the first statement, which will be published in 2025—after due consultation and discussion with the devolved Governments and with Jürgen Maier, the chair of Great British Energy—will ensure that GBE is focused on driving clean energy deployment to boost energy independence, create jobs and ensure that UK taxpayers, bill payers and communities reap the benefits of clean, secure, home-grown energy.

Of course, the issue of energy bills is very important. We are relying strongly on the advice of the Climate Change Committee, of which the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, is probably not a great fan—but none the less, over 14 years his party listened to it. The committee said that a clean energy future is the best way to make Britain energy independent, protecting bill payers, creating good jobs and tackling the climate crisis.

The independent National Energy System Operator confirmed a few weeks ago that our 2030 clean power goal is achievable and can create a cheaper, more secure energy system. More broadly, the OBR—another body to which the previous Government paid great attention; they ran into trouble when they did not—highlighted that delayed action on reaching net zero will have significant negative fiscal and economic impacts. The Committee on Climate Change has said that the net costs of the transition, including upfront investment, ongoing running costs and costs of financing, will be less than 1% of GDP over the entirety of 2020 to 2050—lower, it said, than it concluded in its 2019 Net Zero report.

I have already said that we will publish the statement of priorities in 2025. How will GBE be judged? It will be judged on its performance against the statement of priorities within the context of the objectives set by Clause 3.

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

The Minister has said again that the objectives of the company are set out in Clause 3. I am afraid that is not correct. The objects of the company are set out in Clause 3. As the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, said, those objects restrict the activities—they do not set out the objectives. Nowhere in the Bill are the objectives of the company—what it is trying to achieve—laid out. I have not yet heard an argument from the Minister as to why that is.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

I really do not read Clause 3 in that way. Subsection (2) says:

“The statement must provide that Great British Energy’s objects are restricted to facilitating, encouraging and participating in”.


One way to read that is that Great British Energy’s objects are around the following four paragraphs, informed by the strategic priorities and plans that the Secretary of State will prepare over the next few months.

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

There is only one way to read the words the “objects are restricted to”. That is what the clause says.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I cannot give the noble Lord chapter and verse today but will certainly write to him with what we can say in public.

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who took part in this interesting debate and the Minister for his fairly fulsome answer. On Amendment 10, I am not totally convinced that trading is covered by the objects as they stand but I will read his answer in Hansard to see whether I can convince myself that he is right. As he says, the issue is that if it is not in the objects, it is not allowed. I want to make sure that it is allowed—not that it has to happen—in the same way that he argued the other way around on the security definition. That said, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Domestic Solar Panels

Debate between Lord Vaux of Harrowden and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Monday 25th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, of course, I cannot guarantee that the majority of solar panels between now and 2030 are going to be built in this country. What I can assure noble Lords is that, as part of the work we are taking forward, we will look at the UK supply chain. However, the essential point here is that we must strive towards clean power. I do not discount the positive impact of heat pumps. The Government, in their warm homes plan, are as committed to heat pumps as they are to solar.

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

My Lords, one of the best ways of increasing solar panels on the roof is to incentivise people to put excess capacity over their own usage requirements. What assessment have the Government made of peer-to-peer trading arrangements, which would allow people to sell their excess to their neighbours at a price higher than the smart export guarantee but lower than the retail price? I hope the noble Lord will agree that would be a win-win situation.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

The noble Lord has raised this with me, and I think mentioned it at Second Reading of the GBE Bill, so we are giving it consideration. Of course, one should say that in terms of the incentives for people to invest in solar panels, we already have the smart export guarantee, which is a payment for excess electricity generated. However, as part of the warm homes plan, we are looking at the role of incentives and the use of private finance to find a way to help people with the upfront cost, which—even though solar is cheaper than other renewable energies—is always one of the main problems in relation to people being able to invest in their own solar panels.