Pension Schemes Bill

Debate between Lord Vaux of Harrowden and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Wednesday 22nd April 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I support the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, in insisting on the omission of mandation in Motion A1. The proposal has made the Government unpopular in the City and, as an ex-businesswoman and ex-pension trustee, I urge Ministers to think more radically and get rid of the power altogether, even in its constrained form.

Moving on, I thank the Minister and the Minister of State, Torsten Bell, for Amendments 85C, 85D and 85E in Motion D, which respond positively to my proposal for a review of public sector pensions. The work promised by the Government Actuary’s Department should provide the transparent analysis of this complex area that I have been calling for, with the support of the Centre for Policy Studies, the economist Neil Record, my noble friends Lady Noakes and Lord Moynihan of Chelsea, and the coverage in the Times and the Telegraph. It was reassuring to know from the Minister that the important complementary work responding to the Public Accounts Committee’s concerns about the whole of government accounts 2023-24 will be published within the one-year timeframe in the amendment.

I have been addressing not just a technical matter but serious problems, such as intergenerational unfairness and the long-term affordability of our important public service pensions. I trust that, as a result of the new work, we will be able to tackle the issues better and in a much more informed way.

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

My Lords, I will briefly add my support to Motion A1 from the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, to remove the mandation reserved power. On Monday, the Minister told us:

“On the question on fiduciary duty, nothing in the Bill disapplies trustees’ existing duties of loyalty, prudence and acting in members’ best interests”.


Her argument was that

“the savers’ interest test allows a scheme to seek an exemption if it can show that compliance would cause material financial detriment to members”.—[Official Report, 20/4/26; col. 591.]

I hope that noble Lords can see the rather fundamental flaw in that argument. Not causing “material financial detriment” is very different from acting in members’ best interests. Would the Minister put her pension savings into a fund that promised only that it would not cause material financial detriment? Of course she would not, but that, as she has said, is the standard to which the mandated asset allocation will be held. So, contrary to what she keeps claiming, the power to mandate asset allocation, even with the latest proposed constraints, quite clearly undermines the fiduciary duty of trustees to act in members’ best interests, and it has no place in pension scheme regulation.

Pension Schemes Bill

Debate between Lord Vaux of Harrowden and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Monday 20th April 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, Motion J1 reintroduces my proposal for a review of the long-term affordability, intergenerational unfairness, fiscal sustainability and accounting treatment of public service pension schemes. I am trying to help the Government to fill a lacuna in their important work on pensions, so I was taken aback by the Commons’ reason for rejecting it—namely,

“that it is not necessary to duplicate existing information regarding public sector pension schemes”.

The presentation of the liability represented by public sector pensions is widely seen as inadequate, and the PAC itself has expressed concerns—in particular that pension liabilities are not being presented in a way that allows Parliament properly to understand their real costs in the long term.

I will highlight four reasons why a review is needed. First, the cost is huge. As we have heard repeatedly, unfunded pension liabilities represent the second-largest government liability after gilts. Currently, we commit future taxpayers to about £60 billion of new expenditure every year, in the form of a stream of index-linked new expenditure. According to the OBR, the long-term liability is £1.4 trillion, but it may be more as a lot depends on the assumptions made.

Secondly, it is an unfunded pay-as-you-go scheme. The problem with that is that the current generation of older and former public sector workers are taking money from younger generations of workers already weighed down by trying to finance housing, young families and, in some cases, repaying student loans. This is unfair, and it is why I put intergenerational unfairness at the heart of the review.

Thirdly, the coalition did well to reform some public sector pensions following the Hutton review, as the Minister acknowledged, but the new arrangements have turned out to be more costly than expected. Sadly, growth, which helps to ease things, has been modest. Moreover, substantial increases in the pay and size of the public sector make things look better in the short term, as employer and employee contributions increase. However, this is a mirage, as it stores up even more trouble for the future, as greater payouts on higher salaries will be needed as those people in the system retire.

Fourthly, there are serious accounting issues, as we know from the PAC. The scale of liabilities is not clearly visible from the public accounts. Moreover, as I have learned from my unique experience as a civil servant and a Cabinet Office Minister, the costs of future pensions are not properly taken into account in decision-making across the public sector—for example, on restructuring or adding to the workforce. In conclusion, there is a real need to establish whether the system is fair and sustainable, and whether anything could be done to improve things.

I emphasise that I support the work of public sector workers and that I am not making any recommendations. That is for the experts, who would look at the whole area objectively, and it is for the Government to decide what, if anything, needs to be done.

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

My Lords, I want very quickly to ask the Minister a question on Motions D and D1. I say at the outset that I agree with almost every word that the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, said. I entirely agree that one year is too short. I have at least two pensions that have not been touched for that long, which would fall into the dormant category; I would not consider them dormant, but there we go.

My concern is that if we start moving people’s small pots around, potentially without their knowledge, we increase the problem of lost pots. The answer to that is the pension dashboard. So my question to the Minister is: will we have the pension dashboard in place, as a method of being able to retrace a lost pot, before we start moving people’s pots around?

Employment Rights Bill

Debate between Lord Vaux of Harrowden and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Committee stage
Tuesday 24th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 326A on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Penn, who apologises that she is unable to be here.

The amendment is simple: it would require the Secretary of State or the relevant devolved counterpart to have regard to the impact of any regulations made under the Bill on the economic growth and competitiveness of the United Kingdom. It is very similar to Amendment 325, just introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom, which itself mirrors the wording of the secondary objective for financial regulators, which was introduced in the Financial Services and Markets Act 2023. I would support either one; they ultimately have the same goal.

As we heard on many occasions in Committee—we are reaching the end, at long last—this is a skeleton Bill, where an enormous amount of the detail will be added later by regulation. I counted 173 regulation-making powers in the Bill—a quite staggering number. Call me old-fashioned, but I rather think that we should do the work first and then legislate, not the other way around.

We also have an impact assessment that accompanies the Bill that, as we were just told, was described by the Regulatory Policy Committee as not fit for purpose. In many cases the impact assessment makes no effort at all to quantify the costs or benefits, precisely because it is not yet known what will be in the final regulations that follow the Bill. The Government themselves concede in the impact assessment that many of the measures in the Bill will have negative consequences. For example, the Government expect that, overall, the measures in the Bill will impose costs to business of around £5 billion. They also state very clearly that these costs will fall disproportionately on small businesses. The potential negative impact on growth and competitiveness from that is obvious.

Some of the negative aspects could be minimised if the regulations are well designed. To give just one example, I have been concentrating my efforts on the Bill on the introduction of day-one unfair dismissal rights. The impact assessment is very clear on the potential negative impacts from that on businesses and, in particular, on the potential hiring of employees who are seen as higher risk, such as younger people. That is my top concern in that respect.

After describing the potential negative consequences, the impact assessment rightly says:

“The impact of hiring and labour mobility will ultimately depend on the final regulations on what is permissible in the ‘initial statutory period’ of employment”.


I agree; a well-designed probationary period could negate many of the impacts that the Bill could cause, which is something that I hope the Minister will be prepared to discuss before Report. However, at the moment, we have no idea what the final regulations will be and neither, it appears, do the Government. They still have not carried out the relevant consultation.

That is a really good example of the importance of this amendment. The final consequences of the Bill will depend on the detail that is to be added later or amended by regulation. We should not just take that on trust. Although I of course have the greatest faith in the Minister, this Government cannot speak for or bind future Governments.

The Government have consistently stressed the importance of growth and competition, although it is fair to say that their actions have not always followed their rhetoric. To quote the Chancellor in January this year:

“Economic growth is the number one mission of this government … most of all … without economic growth … we cannot improve the lives of ordinary working people”.


Surely that last point is the main point of the Bill: to improve the lives of ordinary working people. It must be essential, and I assume agreed, that where the measures in the Bill could have negative impacts on growth, those negative impacts should be identified and taken into account when adding the details to the Bill by regulation.

In the same speech, the Chancellor went on to say:

“The strategy that I have consistently set out … is to grow the supply-side of our economy … recognising that first and foremost … it is businesses, investors and entrepreneurs who drive economic growth … a government that systematically removes the barriers that they face—one by one and has their back”.


It is hard to disagree with that, so surely we should ensure that the Bill does not do the opposite and create barriers for business.

There is a good precedent for including a growth and competitiveness objective in a Bill such as this. The Financial Services and Markets Act 2023 introduced a secondary objective for financial service regulators to facilitate international competitiveness and growth, something that the current Chancellor has been vocal in her support of and has rightly put pressure on regulators to follow, including through the issuing of new growth-focused remit letters to the regulators.

Having such an objective, or in the case of these amendments just to have regard to, is not new and is entirely consistent with stated government policy. Given the potential negative impacts the Bill may have—by the Government’s own admission—the sheer volume of detailed regulation that must follow and the difference that could be made to the consequences of the Bill if those regulations are well designed or badly designed, we must surely have some clear objectives for those regulations. All that these amendments would do is ensure that growth and competitiveness must be taken into consideration. Surely that is not too much for us to ask.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lord, I have added my name to Amendment 326A in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Penn. I agree with all that has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux of Harrowden, in introducing it, and, indeed, with the convincing analysis by my noble friend Lord Sharpe.

Noble Lords may recall that I come to the scrutiny of the Bill constructively, having worked for Tesco for many years and enjoyed excellent relations with the USDAW union, the noble Lord, Lord Hannett of Everton, and with the trade unions in general, under the noble Lord, Lord Monks, at that time. We always tried to treat people well, and the success of the business was a testimony to that. We complied with the law.

However, the law is now changing, and I am afraid that this Committee has shown that the Bill needs further work. As drafted, it will be a huge check on growth and will undermine the competitiveness of which we have rightly been very proud in the UK. My noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral mentioned earlier the worrying research by the Institute of Directors that reveals that seven in 10 business leaders surveyed believe that the Employment Rights Bill will have a negative impact on UK economic growth.

I have two particular examples, which I hope the Minister will look at again. First, Ministers—or rather their civil servant agents, and possibly even the trade unions—will be able to take a legal case where an employee is unwilling to pursue a complaint. That is inappropriate and unfair; consent is such an important principle. It also risks putting further pressure on the already struggling tribunal system.

Secondly, and I apologise that this example has already been mentioned, the Bill will radically reduce the effectiveness of the labour market by giving employees the right to claim unfair dismissal from day one of their employment. Other employees will be disadvantaged, as those who are slack, do a poor job or play the system will not be able to be dislodged without a long tribunal case. This will hit good employees who need to cover for their fellows.

The Minister has very helpfully agreed that there should be a probation period during which suitable arrangements can be made in such circumstances, but we have no detail. All of that will go into regulations, which we will not be able to reverse. That is why I feel so strongly about this evening’s amendment on growth and competitiveness. This would apply when regulations were being made by Ministers. There is, unfortunately, a plethora—a cornucopia—of powers in the Bill. It is essential that Ministers, here and in the devolved Administrations, to which our amendment refers, should be required to look at the impact on UK economic growth and competitiveness when they are making regulations. Otherwise, I fear that the growth objective of this Government is for the birds.

WhatsApp: Ministerial Communications

Debate between Lord Vaux of Harrowden and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Wednesday 8th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I feel that that is completely impractical. We live in a modern world, where people use WhatsApp, private mail and SMS. What we need to do is have sensible rules and training for Ministers and parliamentarians to teach them what they can do and what is risky. I personally had an excellent briefing on my first day as a Minister at the Cabinet Office. I was given my own devices and was told about the risks of social media in a way that I found encouraged me to conform very closely.

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

My Lords, is it appropriate for a Minister to hand a cache of WhatsApp messages—government messages—to a journalist for personal gain?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I will not be drawn on the individual case, but I will point to what the Government are doing and also refer the noble Lord, who is a friend, to the Covid inquiry. My understanding is that Mr Hancock has said that he will ensure that all appropriate material is given to the inquiry, and I understand that the Department of Health and Social Care is ensuring just that.

Pension Schemes Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Vaux of Harrowden and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 30th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden [V]]

My Lords, I support all three amendments. The grouping is slightly odd, mixing the question of transactions with that of data accuracy; there is a relationship but it is only tangential. The noble Baronesses, Lady Drake, Lady Altmann and Lady Bowles, have already explained the reasoning for the amendments so I shall try to be brief.

Amendment 52 would prevent a dashboard service from engaging in financial transactions. The matter has been well explained by the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, so I will just say that the risks around pension-related transactions happening without proper advice are very well known. Dashboards are being created primarily for the purpose of allowing people to obtain better information about their situation. That information will be helpful when deciding whether to carry out some transactions but it does not in any way negate the need for proper advice, so allowing dashboards to become transaction platforms would make ensuring that proper advice had been taken much more difficult. At least until they have been fully established and the implications well understood, it really must make sense to prohibit dashboards from becoming transactional platforms.

The other two amendments along with Amendment 13, which was discussed in the first group, are about establishing appropriate processes to ensure the accuracy of the data on the dashboard. It almost goes without saying that a dashboard containing inaccurate information may actually be more damaging than no dashboard at all; I apologise for the echo of something else there. These dashboards are intended to help people and their advisers to make decisions about their future pensions. Inaccurate data will lead to wrong decisions being made. It is therefore critical that data must be fully and regularly checked and audited, so I urge the Minister to accept these amendments.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe [V]]

My Lords, as noble Lords know, I am as concerned as anyone with consumer protection. I therefore welcome the amendment which we have agreed to during the passage of the Bill to ensure that the Money and Pensions Service provides a public-owned dashboard. That was a great step forward, and we will come on to that on the next amendment.

However, I fear that this amendment could stop commercial experimentation, which is desirable if properly regulated. As I understand it, any organisation providing a pension dashboard must achieve authorisation from the FCA. Innovation is important and can help consumers and pensioners. If the amendment were passed, it could have a chilling effect and prevent innovation until another Bill had cleared Parliament—not, I suspect, a welcome prospect for HMG after the extent of the amendments made to this Bill.

I have a question for the Minister. I am a little concerned about compliance with GDPR, which obviously is important in securing equivalence in the EU context, where portability is a key requirement. I wonder if the amendment could run us into any trouble on that aspect of regulation.