Electoral Registration Pilot Scheme (England) Order 2016

Debate between Lord Tyler and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Tuesday 5th July 2016 Grand Committee

[Lord Tyler]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, but I have not yet heard any explanation—I fear none is coming—of why we should not use the absolutely solid evidence of the electoral register that was, as it were, tested to destruction on 23 June 2016. What is the objection to using that register for the basis of this discussion? I cannot understand that.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

May I, too, come back to that point, rather than interrupt again later? I agree entirely with the Minister’s point about the need to have a defined date. It is absolutely right that we have to fix the date—I have no problem about that—and draw the boundaries on the basis of the figures at that date. It is absolutely spot on to say that we cannot move the date around. The problem the Government have to contend with is that we had a fixed, defined date, which was 1 December 2016, but they chose to scrap it and bring it forward by a year. The problem is that that was going to be the date, so all these people would have been on the register and would have been counted. I do not think the Minister was involved, but somebody in government sat around the table and decided to bring this forward by a year. We have never had an explanation of that. We have talked about ghost voters and other problems and this and that, but it was the Government’s decision. The December 2016 date clearly guaranteed the commission plenty of time over the next couple of years to have a review. The review would have come to both Houses some time in 2018, been approved by both Houses and been in place for the election in 2020. However, somebody in government took a decision to bring it forward by a year, and I suspect that decision was made purely for party political advantage. If that is the case, it is absolutely disgraceful.

Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Tyler and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Tuesday 12th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, I want to speak briefly—

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tyler]

I think that my friend here, the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, would like to follow me. He might like to react to what I have to say.

This afternoon the Minister, and indeed others, seem to be again saying, “Yes, one day this will happen but not now”. That is a position which I understand—it is a perfectly reasonable position—but it cannot be repeated and repeated without the Government coming forward and saying when and how. On 18 November, I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, put it very succinctly when he said:

“There may come a time for change, when we lower the age to 16. There may be a debate to be had. This is not the moment for that debate”.—[Official Report, 18/11/15; col. 179.]

When is it going to be the time for that debate? This is the doctrine of unripe time, which I think I am right in saying that Sir Humphrey was always quoting to Jim Hacker in “Yes Minister”. Whenever they wanted to avoid taking a decision they would say, “We’ll get to it one day. Yes, of course it’ll be important”. But it is not going to be sufficient simply to put this off for ever.

The Prime Minister himself has said, as we understand it, to the leader of the Conservatives in the Holyrood Parliament that, yes, there will be an opportunity for the full debate which I think the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and I will both want to contribute to. When are we going to have that debate? We cannot go on for ever leaving this on the side, as if it somehow does not matter that one part of the United Kingdom adjoining another has a completely different franchise, as my noble friend Lord Purvis said. If this is the United Kingdom, the franchise should be consistent across the United Kingdom.

There is also an important issue here about the way in which we discuss these issues in this House. The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, seems to think that it is inappropriate for this House to have any views whatever about elections. I dispute that. During my whole period in this House, we have been able to improve the law in relation to elections in a more dispassionate way than when I was a Member of the other place. It has a special interest in the electoral arrangements, in the Representation of the People Acts and so on. This House has a proper responsibility, a disinterest, which is extremely relevant to important questions about the franchise and the way in which our democracy works. If we give that up it will be an important loss of responsibility and role for this House, and I hope that we will not go down that track. In response, I trust that the Minister will be able to tell us, as the Prime Minister has hinted to his colleagues in the Holyrood Parliament, that there will be an opportunity for the wider debate that Ministers keep telling us is timely and should be happening. If she cannot tell us that, then we are right to make progress in this Bill and move in this direction.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, while I have every sympathy with the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, and with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, I should say right at the outset that if the amendment is pressed to a vote, noble Lords on these Benches will abstain.

My party fought the general election last year on a commitment to bring forward legislation to enable 16 and 17 year-olds to vote. We have, on numerous occasions, had debates, asked questions, moved Motions and won votes to advance the cause, but it has fallen on deaf ears on the government Benches. They have shown not the slightest interest in considering this change and I have come to the conclusion that it will probably take a Government of a different political persuasion to bring it about.

Not even the enthusiastic support of Ruth Davidson MSP, the leader of the Tory party in Scotland, or of the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, the former leader, has made any difference at all to the government Benches. We will continue to press the case at the appropriate time—the worst thing that the Government have done of course is to deny 16 and 17 year-olds a vote in the referendum on the European Union. The Government and the House of Commons have rejected this proposal repeatedly.

We are a revising Chamber. The elected Commons has made a decision, as the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said, and I do not intend to challenge it further on this occasion. In taking this decision, I am also mindful of the advice from the Electoral Commission about making decisions in a timely manner and the extra work that would be involved in the short space of time before the elections.

Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Tyler and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Monday 29th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, that is nonsense. The noble Baroness should simply look at what has happened in Scotland. We now have a practical example. There no longer are these one-party states in Scotland. There are now far more effective local authorities as a result.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare that I am an elected member of Lewisham Council in south London. This has been an interesting debate but changing the voting system to a form of PR is not something that I am in favour of, although this would be only for the election of councillors in England.

In 2011, we did of course have a referendum on moving to a new system for elections to the House of Commons. The system put forward was AV. I know that that is not a proportional system but it was the system agreed by the then coalition Government, put to a referendum of the voters of the United Kingdom and rejected. There is nothing that I have heard in this debate or elsewhere that makes me think there has been a change in the heart of the voters in England and that what people want is to elect their councillors by single transferable vote, having stuck with first past the post elections to Westminster only three years ago. I did, however, agree with the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, when he talked of looking at governance structures from time to time. I think that that is right. That does not take me down the road of moving to single transferable votes for the election of councillors.

There are issues, as the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, referred to, about the number of voting systems that we use to elect people to various public bodies, positions and Parliaments in the United Kingdom. Where a body is elected by a proportional system, it should remain a proportional system, but I would like to reduce the number of systems we use. It is very confusing for the voter to elect people when we are using, at least, first past the post, single transferable vote, closed list systems, top-up lists and the supplementary vote. Supplementary vote is one of the worst voting systems we use. I have been to many counts where the supplementary vote system was used. There are often a considerable number of spoilt ballot papers because people put the X in the second column instead of the first column so the vote is completely discarded, which is a bad thing. I do not think that these people intend to spoil their ballot papers; it is just that they have not understood that they need to put an X in the first column and then one in the second column as well.

Could the noble Baroness in her response make reference to the myriad voting systems we now have in the United Kingdom and how that could be a little less confusing for the voter? I am sure that from the Dispatch Box we are all agreed that changing the system for the election of councillors in England is not something that either of us supports. Nor is there evidence that it is something that the public want. At this stage, there is no need to move down that road.

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[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, I am pleased about the Minister’s final remarks, because I think the drop is catastrophic: 47% have dropped out in just over a year and that collapse is a consequence of IER. We have to deal with that; it is catastrophic.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, this late at night I am grateful for any crumbs that fall from ministerial tables. I suppose I should be grateful for that last comment. I shall take up, for a second, the argument that this is not appropriate legislation into which this reform should be inserted. The Long Title of the Bill includes:

“to make provision about local authority governance; and for connected purposes”.

That is critical to the whole consideration of the Bill. We are trying to revive important parts of the local governance of this country, and if the franchise is not relevant to that I do not know what is. Of course, at this time of night it would not be appropriate, as the Minister said. We have not had a very full debate: I have no doubt that we will have a full debate on Report. Therefore, for the time being, I and my colleagues are happy to withdraw the amendment.