Medical Innovation Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Turnberg and Lord Saatchi

Friday 24th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Saatchi]

My Lords, I think that the Minister has answered this point, and I do not know what I can add. The Bill at the moment focuses on “responsible” and “irresponsible”, and it is very pleasing to hear that the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, might accept that the Bill concentrates on that distinction, and that to introduce a reference to “reasonableness” or “proportionality” might risk causing confusion. Therefore, perhaps this is a topic on which he can satisfy himself in the discussions that follow Committee.

[Lord Turnberg]

My Lords, I strongly support Amendment 2 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, for inserting the word “reasonable” for all the cogent reasons that he has given. Amendment 3 follows on from my earlier Amendment 1, which defines “relevant condition” and does not need further discussion here. I am very pleased to see that we have the agreement of the noble Lord, Lord Saatchi, that the word “reckless” will disappear from the Bill.

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[Lord Saatchi]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 23 I will speak also to Amendment 29 in my name.

Amendment 23 is a paving amendment. The substantive amendment in this group is Amendment 29, which inserts a new clause into the Bill after Clause 1, expanding the existing provision that states that the Bolam test is unaffected by the Bill. It is for the innovating doctor to decide whether to take the steps set out in the Bill or to rely on the Bolam test as at present. The new clause also includes express provision that doctors are not negligent merely because they have not followed the Bill. I beg to move.

[Lord Turnberg]

My Lords, I am very pleased to see Amendment 29 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Saatchi. I support it because it allows doctors to continue to rely on the current common-law arrangements based on the Bolam principle and on a body of reasonable medical opinion. It means, however, that there are now three options open to an innovating doctor. He or she can engage in a research clinical trial in which ethics committee approval has been given, the patient has given consent and all the regulatory approvals have been given, he or she can rely on the Bolam principle and take all the precautions that that entails or he or she can go through the processes outlined in this Bill in the belief that this will somehow avoid the fear of litigation under the common law. I just wonder whether that might lead to a little confusion and lead doctors simply to use and rely on the current common-law principle. However, I am happy for this amendment to be approved. I see that it would be a useful amendment to the Bill because it gives the doctors the opportunity to use what they always have done.

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[Lord Saatchi]

My Lords, perhaps we could add this point to the discussions that we are going to have before Report. My noble friend the Minister expresses a modest view of what the Government should and should not do and wants to leave it to the regulatory bodies to make this happen.

I refer once again to anecdote. The noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, said to me at an early stage in this process, in which he has been a great inspiration, “What are you going to do after the Bill becomes law?”. I said, “I am going to go on a very long vacation”. He said, “Oh no you’re not”. I said, “Why not?”. He said, “Your work is only just beginning”. His point, and he speaks as an expert, is that a culture change is contained in this Bill. “Culture change” is a phrase that my noble friend just used, and it was used by Dame Sally Davies, the Chief Medical Officer, many months ago. A culture change is being sought, but it will not happen overnight. It will follow, exactly as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, says, a great deal of education and discussion in the medical profession.

Not to go on, but the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, said that this will fall largely not just on the regulatory bodies, such as the GMC and NICE, but on the royal colleges. They will have to be involved in the process of educating people about what this means. This is the beginning of the process and I am rather with my noble friend in not wanting to have the Government set out the rules. I hope that that is acceptable to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt.

[Lord Turnberg]

My Lords, I am slightly reassured by the noble Earl’s comments that the Government’s intention is to produce some guidance with help from the relevant bodies. I am sorry that he does not think it necessary to have that in the Bill. I wonder why not. He has not explained why the amendment should not be there, because it sets out the need for such a code of practice. Meanwhile, however, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.