Public Service Vehicles (Accessible Information) Regulations 2023

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Tuesday 16th May 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her explanation, and congratulate the speakers so far on raising a whole range of important information that we really need from her. I strongly welcome these regulations, which flow, as noble Lords have already said, from commitments made in the Bus Services Act 2017—which is, of course, back in ancient history, as the noble Lord, Lord Borwick, made clear to us. It is five years since the consultation. I know we have had Covid in between, which possibly interrupted things, but that did not last five years and it is very unfortunate that we have waited so long, because we have another three years to wait in some cases before full implementation. I recall that there was a Secretary of State recently who had a penchant for complaining about audible announcements on public transport, and I wonder whether that is why it has taken so long for these regulations to come forward.

The point I am making in relation to Covid is that if these regulations had been in place more quickly, I think we would have attracted people back on to the buses much more quickly. We have to attract new passengers to deal with congestion and emissions. It is easy, of course, to take what is in the regulations for granted, if you spend a lot of time in London—as the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, said, 98% of buses and all Tubes have notification of this nature—but there is a failure rate, and I will come to that point later on. Outside London, it is only 25%, and in some areas there is nothing at all.

I draw attention to Regulation 7(3), which specifies what information should be provided, and I am very pleased to see details on volume. Noble Lords may not be aware, but I wear two hearing aids and actually I have very little residual hearing. Without the hearing aids, I would not understand a word anyone was saying here today: even with them, I often miss things. I know the Minister often thinks I do not listen to what she says, but it is not for lack of trying. I am also pleased to see details on hearing loop in priority seats and the wheelchair space, and I am very pleased to see specification on character height for visible information.

I have one point though: the issue of contrast is specified in Regulation 14(5)(b) on page 7. There are good practice guidelines on contrast, which organisations representing people with visual loss are very well aware of, and I am hoping that the Government will take advice and pass it on in terms of the use of the best possible contrast for written information.

There is clearly a public information job to be done as well as training for drivers on these issues, and I would be grateful if the Minister could give us some details about what the Government plan to do to spread this information and good news and raise public awareness of things such as priority seats on buses. We take that for granted on the Tube in London, but that would not necessarily be the case in every part of the country, especially because you cannot see the hearing loop. For someone to have to sit in those seats, public information would need to be available.

I am pleased to see the support from the Scottish and Welsh Governments. It is good to see something on which the Governments across the UK can agree wholeheartedly. It is logical that these regulations exclude demand-responsive transport, but my question to the Minister is about ensuring that any vehicle used on a variable basis—in other words, sometimes for scheduled work and sometimes for demand-responsive work—would have the capacity to provide that information.

My final question relates to something raised by the noble Lord, Lord Young. What happens if the system breaks down, and what happens about the failure by the driver to switch on the information system or to update it from one route to another? What are the penalties for non-compliance and what are the mechanisms to ensure that all bus companies do comply and, if the system has broken down, that the driver makes the announcement? What is the process by which passengers can make complaints if they believe that this is not being implemented properly? Having said all that, the sooner this is introduced, the better.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for introducing this SI. For 10 years, I was managing director of the Underground and, as such, was part of the top team in LT. It is nice to see my former boss smiling at that point rather than frown. For two years, I was chief executive of LT and chairman of London Buses, and programmes from that period resulted in the 98%, of which I am personally proud and proud on behalf of the institution.

I want to introduce an idea of how to make these things happen. The reason why we were so successful is that we would have rules, standards and all that sort of stuff, but we also had a cultural issue. I will get the title wrong, but essentially we had a disability tsar, which meant that whenever hard-nosed people were trying to do things, they were asked whether they had taken account of all sorts of disabilities. It was not just about audio-visual disabilities; it was about things such as stairs, handrails and so on. If you can do that activity from a customer-focused point of view, you get to a cultural difference.

I hope that, insomuch as the department can have some influence in this, it will encourage operators to try to think from the point of view of the customer because there are things that can be done beyond this. One of the most difficult things that we found was the invisible disabilities. The most obvious one is deafness, but you also have intellectual capacity and mental health problems. The more you think from the customer’s point of view, the better results you get .

Transport: Investment Plans

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Thursday 30th March 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I too thank my noble friend Lord Berkeley for securing this debate. Bus networks across England are fundamentally broken, and railway operators are breaking records for delays and cancellations. The Statement on 9 March does not solve this. In fact, there was no mention of buses at all. The bus network is used by twice as many people as use trains, yet a lack of reliability across England is holding back the economy and causing misery for millions.

I therefore begin by asking the Minister: does she agree that this is a result of Britain being the only country in the developed world where private bus operators set routes and fares with no say from the public? Fares have consistently risen twice as fast as wages since this Government came to power. While we can all recognise the value of the £2 bus fare cap in England, its time-limited nature, and the fact that many providers have chosen not to take part in the scheme, means that it falls far short of expectations.

Only a new system that gives local communities a say over routes and fares can make the network fit for the future. Mayors across England have been using their devolved powers and funding to bring down the cost of living and put more money in people’s pockets. With greater authority, they could achieve so much more. Will the Minister therefore bring forward new legislation to devolve further powers across England, put the public back in control of the public transport they depend on and end the ideological ban on municipal bus companies?

I was chairman of London Buses for two years, during which time I came to realise what buses mean. More than any other form of transport, they are engines of social change. They carry the old, the young, the poor and the weak. We should be debating not profit but the value they bring to communities, in particular their weakest parts.

On the future of the railways, the Government have again rewarded failure by handing Avanti West Coast an extension. It is the worst-performing operator on the rail network, but its problems are not isolated—TransPennine Express has caused misery across the rail network, with dozens of cancellations every day. After more than a decade of this Government, railways in the north and the Midlands are broken.

Despite fares rising, performance remains unacceptable and promised investment is not being delivered. The scaling back of Northern Powerhouse Rail, coupled with the scrapping of the eastern leg of HS2, is a betrayal of the promise made to the north. This scheme alone could have sparked a rail revolution and created tens of thousands of jobs. Given that the Government based their decision not to go ahead with Northern Powerhouse Rail on seat capacity and time savings, will they now commission that independent assessment so that the north can finally get the rail network it deserves?

Among the minor updates and tinkering in last month’s Statement, the most significant announcement was the confirmation that HS2 is delayed and set to cost the taxpayer even more. This latest announcement appears to confirm that HS2 trains will stop at Old Oak Common for up to 10 years. Is the Minister aware that the Government’s own review and assessment found that this would evaporate time savings, detonate the business case, overwhelm the Elizabeth Line and cost £30 billion in growth?

The railway has now been in chaos, to a greater or lesser extent, for at least a decade. We need to grip its challenges. The Government have a plan with Great British Railways. It seems to me that it is the only plan in town, so why cannot we get ahead with it, to a position where we can hold a single body to account for the railways and their improvement?

A £1 billion cut to the active travel budget was confirmed as part of the announcement, as well as the mothballing of major roadbuilding schemes. What assessment have the Government made of the impact of this on rail and buses? Does the Minister expect that it will increase demand?

The piecemeal announcements on 9 March fall far short of people’s ambition for buses and rail. We need the Government to put passengers back at the heart of our railways and bus networks and build the infrastructure fit for the century ahead, unlocking jobs and growth. I hope the Minister will reflect on the comments made during this debate and that the Government will reassess their investment plans.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed. As ever, I will reflect carefully on those contributions. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for once again giving noble Lords the opportunity to discuss buses. It is a subject close to my heart, and I think we all agree that we want the same thing; we are dealing with how, on the pitch that we are on, we can achieve the sorts of services that we would like to see.

Let me start by commenting on the announcement on 9 March. Essentially, the £40 billion set out in that Statement was the capital investment for transport over the next two financial years. Sometimes it is easy in transport because the figures get very big very quickly, but it is a significant amount of money that we are going to invest in our transport systems—that is across all modes—and it does not include the further funding that is committed for revenue support in terms of the services as well.

I shall try to focus my reflections today on rail, both high-speed and traditional, and local transport. I accept that there were some comments on active travel and roads, the responses to which I may put in a letter after the debate—certainly, the figure given for the reduction in active travel funding I just do not recognise.

When we restated the amount of funding that will be forthcoming in the next two financial years, we did so in the face of two quite significant challenges. The first is the overall decline in the number of passengers on the railways and on buses, as well as a change in the nature of travel, because fewer people are going to work —indeed, we have seen a welcome rise in the amount of leisure travel taking place. The second is financial. There has been significant inflation within the construction sector. That is not a homogeneous situation; some things are inflating at a higher rate than others, and it is time to reflect on the impact of that inflation and to consider how we can de-risk the investments that we want to make.

The Transport Secretary’s statement set out which sections of HS2 the Government are prioritising to deliver as planned and which sections need to be rephased to take into account that inflationary pressure on the cost base. Cost estimates for each phase of the programme will be published. His announcement clearly requires officials to work through the consequences with HS2 and the supply chain to firm up the information that we have.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

Does the Minister have data for that publication?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The six-monthly updates will continue to be laid before Parliament as they have been previously. We will of course endeavour to put in every single update as much information as we have at that time. We will not have all the information immediately, because various things will be worked through at a different time.

We confirmed that the first stage of HS2 will be delivered as planned between Old Oak Common and Birmingham Curzon Street by 2033. Sometimes, I am mildly disappointed by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, making comments such as “serious doubt about the project” and “unlikely to go beyond Birmingham”. I am not sure where such observations have come from, because we have been quite clear in our plans.

On the rail system more generally, as the Secretary of State said during his Bradshaw address,

“operating the railways is currently financially unsustainable and it isn’t fair to continue asking taxpayers to foot the bill”.

We have to be very careful about the costs, thinking particularly about the depressed revenue that we are seeing at the moment.

Train Services: North of England

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Monday 27th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

There are many things that the Government are doing, because not all train operating companies in the north are the same; they all have slightly different challenges and some have been able to address those challenges more quickly than others in certain circumstances. The challenges fall into three areas. The first is absence and sickness, which is higher than it really should be, and that needs to be addressed. The second is rest day working and overtime. Noble Lords will all know about the national industrial action that happens periodically, and there is also other industrial action around rest day working and more localised disputes. Those are having very significant impacts on services. The last, in some circumstances, is driver departure, as some drivers are choosing the leave the industry. As my noble friend points out, those are the sorts of things we have to consider. We have got action plans for each of the train operating companies, but each one will have slightly different challenges to address.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has just described a railway that is in a mess. Is the new Great British railways going to sort this out? If the answer is yes, why are we not seeing a Bill to make it happen? Does the Minister know when such a Bill is going to be introduced?

Cars: Headlight Glare

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Monday 30th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is quite right. One should not drive at another car with full-beam headlights on; it is right that they are dimmed. However, many vehicles nowadays have a manual system for levelling the aim of headlights; the problem is that not enough vehicle owners know how to use it. That is why we asked the UNECE to look very closely at the automatic systems that are available to see whether that would help.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I return to the point on road markings and cats’-eyes. An awful lot of road junctions have become increasingly complex. Good road marking is crucial to finding your way around them, but it usually seems to be only white lines on dark surfaces, and there seems to be a world shortage of white paint. Over and over again, the best you can see is a shadow during the day; at night, particularly when it is wet, you are all alone trying to navigate the complexity.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, the Government set out guidelines for local authorities on road markings and all sorts of different things on the streets. We are currently looking at revising these but, of course, for most roads across the country, it is for local authorities to make sure that they are marked up appropriately.

Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2022

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Wednesday 18th January 2023 Lords Chamber

Can the Minister please explain exactly what that means in practice for the member of staff who has to issue the penalty fare? Also, what is the difference in practice between a penalty fare for travelling between Swindon and Bristol Parkway and one issued between Bristol Parkway and Newport? More importantly for me, as someone travelling from Wales—I am interested because this is what people will ask me about—what about people travelling from Newport to Bristol Parkway? Will the penalty fares be issued only when people get through the Severn tunnel on the English side? I can see the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Gower, being interested in this as well. He knows as well as I do that the rail line between Cardiff and, say, Birmingham, goes up the border and threads in and out of Wales—will staff be standing there waiting to decide which country to issue the penalty fare in? To make a serious point about this, what discussions have been had with the Welsh Government about liaising in a way that ensures that life is sensible and bearable for the staff working on trains going between Wales and England?

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Snape, for introducing this very interesting debate.

Under this Government, fares are rising and the promised investment is not being delivered. For Ministers to decide that this should be a priority, rather than the introduction of a Great British Railways Bill, therefore beggars belief. This instrument adds further complexity to the ticketing system. I therefore begin by asking: how have the Government communicated these changes to passengers?

The department has said that it seeks to increase penalties to deter fare evasion more efficiently. Can the Minister confirm whether there has been an assessment of the unintended consequences that this could have on individuals who have been unable, rather than unwilling, to purchase a ticket? Given that this has been introduced to address concerns of operators, can she confirm whether the department has also engaged with trade unions to ask their thoughts on the changes?

The noble Lord, Lord Snape, raises a series of points which I echo. I specifically support his criticism of Avanti West Coast. The Government’s decision to extend that contract was seen by the public as a reward for abject failure, and I still cannot understand why the Government chose to hand over millions more in taxpayers’ cash to an operator that has so clearly failed.

I share the noble Lord’s concerns regarding ticketing too. All this is evidence of the broader problem with the Government’s rail policy—a lack of direction. Short-term decision-making has held back long-term planning on the rail network, whereas modernisation, simpler ticketing and guaranteed universal accessibility is clearly not a focus for Ministers. The noble Lord is right to draw attention to the delays in implementing the Williams-Shapps review and the promised legislation. Can the Minister confirm whether a railway Bill will be introduced in this Parliament?

The Government must be far more ambitious about our railways and, rather than tinkering with minor changes to penalties, should bring forward the changes that they have promised.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I am enormously grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Shapps, for giving your Lordships’ House and indeed me—

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

Snape.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

I do not regard that comparison as at all flattering.

Rail Services

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Tuesday 20th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is quite right: the opportunities for decarbonising our transport system using our railways are massive. We have invested in hydrogen trains—I think they are called HydroFLEX. That is something we will look to take forward in those parts of the country that will be hydrogen hubs. Of course, electric propulsion plays a very important part and we look to technology around the world in order to see whether we can bring it back to the UK.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I always admire the way the Minister battles on with this problem, but this Government have been in office for 12 years and the railways are a mess. Let us look just at Avanti. Back in October, when I called on the Government to end Avanti’s contract, the Minister told the House that

“in December, Avanti will go from 180 daily services to 264”.—[Official Report, 26/10/22; col. 1526.]

We are in December: how many services each day has Avanti averaged so far this month?

South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive (Transfer of Functions) Order 2023

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Tuesday 13th December 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a long-suffering passenger in South Yorkshire. I live in Sheffield, and I am well aware of the area and of the request of the former mayor and the current mayor, Oliver Coppard, for this change. However, in South Yorkshire we are bit perplexed, not because we are not bright people but because since August, as the Minister said, the functions of South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive have moved to the mayoral combined authority.

South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive’s website still exists. Its last post was on 31 August. It states:

“To better reflect who we are, the communities we serve and the way we work we changed our name on 17 September 2021 from ‘South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive’ (SYPTE) to ‘South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority’ (SYMCA).


SYPTE will continue to exist and retain the responsibilities of the local transport authority until the legal integration of SYPTE and SYMCA is complete”.


which is what this statutory instrument does. However, there is no reference on the mayoral combined authority’s website to its function separate from the mayoral authority. There is no way that a member of the public can work out what is happening and there does not seem to be any oversight of the functions of the passenger transport executive. It seems from a lay person’s perspective—and from my perspective, and I used to lead a city in South Yorkshire—that by default this has just happened and there is no dividing line. What assurance does the department have that there has been separation until this order goes through and that it is still there? How has the department checked that separation and that the passenger transport executive is independent?

More important for those of us living in South Yorkshire is whether this is an administrative change. We want to see an impact on our buses and trains, not just the deckchairs on the “Titanic” being shuffled as our public transport sinks. Will the Minister say exactly what difference the order will make, and what powers that do not currently exist in South Yorkshire will be brought to bear that will mean that our bus services will be better—or is it just that the existing powers are being shifted to somebody else and therefore the mayor is unable to get anything extra that the passenger transport executive could not get? That is the key issue. Administration is good, but administration for a purpose is the most important thing. Will the Minister explain to the people of South Yorkshire and to the Committee why this administrative change will have an effect on the bus and train services in South Yorkshire?

For example, 103 TransPennine Express trains were cancelled yesterday—a record for the north of England, many affecting people in South Yorkshire. Will these changes have any effect on the mayor’s ability to hold TransPennine Express to account? Will this new statutory instrument mean that the mayor will be able to do things that the passenger transport executive was not able to do to help with our buses and trains in South Yorkshire?

The reason why I ask this is really important. Mayor Coppard has a very good way of blaming others for the poor state of buses and trains. To some degree he has a point, but if he asks for these powers, what is it that he will be able to do that people in South Yorkshire—either democratically elected councillors who are on the passenger transport executive or the leaders of the council who make up the South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority with the mayor—are unable to do at present? I look forward to answers from the Minister, because an administrative change is welcome if there is an effect on our buses and trains but not if it is just a shuffling of administrative posts back in South Yorkshire.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome this order to merge the South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive into the South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority. This step should lead to more effective and more accountable decision-making, but it is disappointing that it has taken this long for the order to be implemented. I begin by asking the Minister to confirm that the department is engaging with the South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority and its constituent local authorities to ensure there are no further delays.

Powers and reform must be matched with investment, and it is clear that the Government lack ambition for the future of South Yorkshire’s transport network. Today, Ministers still spend three times per head more in London than in Yorkshire and the Humber. If the South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority is to deliver a truly trans- formative agenda, then the Government must provide real support. I hope the Minister will commit to that.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords for their contributions to this short debate. I hope I was able to warn the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, in my opening remarks that this is an administrative change: it is nothing more exciting than that, but it makes sure that the accountability, responsibilities and governance are clear. It also saves the MCA having both the PTE and the MCA structure, so there will be some small savings. We were asked for this, and it is not something that we would necessarily have required of all MCAs, because MCAs should be able to choose how they administrate their local transport powers. There are no changes to the powers that the mayor will have, although colleagues in DLUHC are looking at taking forward further devolution for places in due course.

Railway Station Ticket Offices

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Tuesday 13th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Maybe we are headed towards the ways of ticket office workers. Who knows? I very much hope not.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, at the Conservative Party conference in October, the previous Transport Secretary, when saying that she was asking industry to launch consultations on reforming ticket office provision, suggested the move was about putting passengers first. Have the Government set out the terms of those consultations and can the Minister confirm that it will include thorough consideration of the impact on passengers with accessibility needs?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I can absolutely confirm all those things. This is not one central consultation. The train operating company that operates a ticket office will engage with passenger groups and, indeed, with passengers at the ticket office where they propose to make changes. It is all set out in the ticketing and settlement agreement, which all train operating companies must abide by. If there are any concerns, they should be registered and notified to the relevant body, which is either Transport Focus or London TravelWatch. They will then raise it with the Secretary of State, who will take that into consideration, plus various other elements, if there are concerns.

Rail Strikes: Impact Assessment

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Thursday 8th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is of course completely right. As the frequency of strikes has increased as we head towards Christmas, and of course over the special period that is Christmas itself, it is absolutely right that we ask the workers—or indeed that the RMT chooses to ask its workers—whether they can really afford this around Christmas, and to think about their long-term career within the railways and the damage being done to the ridership of the railways. We are going to see even lower demand than we did before. It is not going to make for a long-term sustainable solution.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on an open and refreshingly clear acknowledgement that only Ministers set the pay and conditions for railway workers, and that only they can unlock the deal. Will she urge her ministerial colleagues to get around the table and enter intensive negotiations to solve this dispute and find a deal to end the rail strikes?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

It is no secret at all that the Government work with the train operating companies and Network Rail to shape these deals. Why on earth would it be a secret? It is indeed the taxpayer that needs to fund these things. But of course the Government have facilitated many meetings: the Secretary of State has met the unions; Minister Merriman has met the unions. At the end of the day, the key to this is for negotiations to continue. My department is happy to facilitate those, but the actual discussions need to happen between the operator and the unions.

Merchant Shipping (Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping) Regulations 2022

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Tuesday 6th December 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, first, I thank the Minister for her introduction. I declare an interest as the chancellor of Cardiff University, which runs courses on maritime law, shipping, logistics management and transport education—all pretty intrinsic to the topic that we are looking at this afternoon. As has been said, these regulations relate to the updating of the STCW convention, which was the first international treaty to establish basic requirements and qualification standards for seafarers. However, we have come a long way since then, so the delay in this latest update is, as the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, said earlier, unfortunate.

The regulations update previous regulations; they are therefore important in enabling UK ships to trade and UK seafarers to work internationally. They are welcome because they broaden the scope of the 2015 regulations and, as has been said, now include pleasure vessels. Does this mean that the regulations will include people crewing their friends’ yachts, for example? If so, how large does the yacht have to be before it comes into scope? It has always surprised me that so little experience is required before people put to sea in leisure boats of one sort or another, because we require so much of individuals before they are allowed to drive on the roads. We require very little of people before they set off towards the horizon on what is basically a road that moves up and down unpredictably. However, being serious about this, if these regulations start to extend to new categories of people, they will of course have an impact on small businesses that build, sell and maintain boats.

There are very detailed specifications here for training providers, so my question for the Minister is this: where precisely does all this detail come from? Obviously, it comes via the IMO and is set out under the auspices of the MCA, but how exactly is it aligned internationally? Is it identical from one country to another, or are we able to vary our standards and specifications? In the past, we would have aligned ourselves with the EU rules, but of course that no longer applies, so how much freedom do we have to interpret the standards?

Paragraph 12 of the Explanatory Memorandum refers to a specific impact for the instrument of “£1.6 million per year”, but there is absolutely no detail as to how that figure was reached. What does it mean? How did those who write the EM get to that figure, because there has been no full impact assessment on the grounds that the instrument does not really affect small business? I would be interested to know the calculation, or at least the basis for the calculation, there.

Finally, I take the opportunity to thank the Minister for a copy of her letter to the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, the chair of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. That sets out in detail, item by item, the overdue maritime legislation. I congratulate the Minister on making progress with this. It does not look good but it looks a great deal better than it did a few months ago, so clearly a lot of hard work has gone into it. I have a couple of questions about the ones we have not dealt with yet. For speed, I will refer to the itemised numbers on the Minister’s list. We are told that items 8 and 16 are expected in March next year and item 9 by mid-year—let us be generous and call that July—but items 11, 12, 13, 18, 19 and 20 all just say “2023”. I would be grateful if the Minister could give us a little more detail. Do we have a whole calendar year still to wait for those six important pieces of legislation that are already seriously overdue, or can we realistically expect them to come through mid-year? What will the Government do to ensure that we keep up with maritime legislation more efficiently in future?

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for introducing these regulations. The Government are right to make further provision for the approval of training providers, including powers to remove that approval and to make provision to allow the Government to charge for approvals.

Across the world, 90% of global trade is made possible by the maritime sector, which is why it is so important that it is properly regulated. Highly skilled seafarers are incredibly important to the sector, and anybody with responsibility for safety at sea must be trained. I therefore welcome these amendments to the 1978 International Convention on Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping for Seafarers.

However, I would appreciate clarification on three minor points. First—I think this question has already been asked—the Explanatory Memorandum says:

“The impact on business, charities or voluntary bodies is estimated to be £1.6 million”.


Can the Minister provide a breakdown of this? Secondly, has the department collected information on how many other parties to the 1978 convention have implemented these amendments? Finally, just yesterday the department published new merchant shipping regulations. Should the House expect further merchant shipping legislation next year?

One or two speakers have commented on the size and thickness of the document. I compare it with the similar regulations for an airline pilot; they are substantially the same volume. In his career a commercial pilot is required to understand them all and, essentially, absorb the basic principles. This is what keeps aviation safe, and I am sure this is what will keep seafarers safe. The hazards are very similar. Aeroplanes are in the air, and therefore are intrinsically dangerous because they might meet the ground in an unscheduled way, but they can usually avoid difficult situations by virtue of their speed. Ships are much more vulnerable, in a separate way, being at sea and subject to the weather and the elements and not having the provision to run away from trouble in nearly the same way as aircraft. The responsibilities that the senior people on ships have, particularly with the enormous numbers of passengers that some ships carry, are about right.

I also heard some words which might be taken to say that somehow these standards might be reduced to facilitate more ships accepting regulation under a UK flag. That would be totally wrong. I have not read them all, but I read the process that created them and it seems that they are the right standards and that we should not move from them. They will make shipping safer, and that is an entirely good thing.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for such a fine turnout in this short debate on maritime safety standards. I will, as ever, try to answer as many questions as possible and will write with further information in due course. I will start with the comment by the noble Lord, Lord Jones, about the size of the regulations because he is right: they are a weighty tome. The reason for this is that in our discussions with the industry it was felt that revoking the 2015 regulations and putting them all in one place would be the better option rather than having some sort of supplementary regulations to the originals, which, quite frankly, may have been confusing. As the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, said, it is expected that people will read and understand these regulations, and having them all in one place is beneficial. Many of the regulations will not have changed. Seafarers also have the support of merchant shipping notices, which come from the MCA, and of their professional associations in understanding the applicability of the regulations to what they do.

A second question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Jones, was about the number of nautical colleges. There are 160 UK approved training providers and nine nautical colleges: Plymouth, Southampton, South Shields, Fleetwood, Lowestoft, Glasgow, Portishead, Shetland, and Grimsby. They take about 1,500 people a year, so this is quite a significant industry and of great benefit to the UK maritime sector. In addition to the colleges and the approved training providers, tens of thousands of safety courses go on all the time.

On the applicability of the regulations, one of the things that might be slightly missing from the discussion, and perhaps I did not explain it well in my opening speech, is that the vessels need to be seagoing—so, of course, Thames Clippers do not count, unless they have got lost, but they have high standards and I am not concerned about the level of safety on Thames Clippers. The regulations apply to pleasure vessels. They were not included in 2015 regulations, which is one of the things that these regulations fix, as is right.

I will have to write to noble Lords about whether you can crew your mate’s 24-metre pleasure vessel. I do not have any friends with a 24-metre pleasure vessel. We will have to write about whether having ad hoc people on board to help out is okay or whether they too should have the right training.

I turn to the international nature of these regulations and maritime in general; this picks up point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. Shipping it is so amazingly global. It does not make sense for one country to set standards that are different from those of another country. The UK is very much at the forefront of improving safety and welfare for people at sea. That is why we speak to our colleagues in the IMO to make sure that these standards are appropriate.

Noble Lords may have noticed that we have included ambulatory references in the regulations. This is now becoming fairly commonplace when dealing with IMO-type regulations. It does not mean a lack of scrutiny; it means that we engage with the industry and reach agreement with the IMO to improve standards over time. I am afraid I do not have the number for the other countries that have already put this into place, but I will endeavour to find out. I will come on to the impact on the UK of the slight delay in getting these in place.