Transport (Scotland) Act 2019 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2023

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Tuesday 17th January 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Jones (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his remarks, which were lucid and forthright. Is it the case that the DVLA referred to in paragraph 7.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum is the DVLA at Morriston in Swansea? That is a huge, valued employer in Wales with a marvellous workforce. One does not want a Scottish competitor, if I may say so. It must be securely located in the Principality. Similarly, where is the Joint Air Quality Unit located? Is it a UK unit? Lastly—I want to be brief in this cool Moses Room—there is a reference in paragraph 12.1 of the Explanatory Memorandum to a “Justice Impact Test”. Can the Minister elaborate on what that process is?

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing this order; I think he said that it is the first order he has introduced so I welcome him to this process. Having been involved in the process of statutory instruments for a decade, there are various responses to being here with this massive attendance, which is not untypical.

This is a devolution order. I have so far managed to avoid any such orders, so I will tread with care. It seems to me that the general philosophy, if the two sides have agreed this, is that the preponderant input is from the Scottish Government and that this order merely enables and completes it. It then seems that the order has three areas. One covers low-emission zones; here, it is clear that this is what Scotland wants to do in terms of such zones. There is also a section on bus services, ticketing and so on and a section on pay conditions and pension protection. My first question is this: why now? It seems that the essence of the order is to make the Transport (Scotland) Act 2019 work. That must have been sorted out three and a half years ago, so I am not clear on how it has worked in the meantime and why this was not done earlier.

The low-emission part is straightforward, as far as I can see, as is the employment part; they are perfectly sensible. The area where I had some trouble understanding was on the role of the CMA. The essence is in Article 21(1), on page 9 of the order, which says:

“A qualifying agreement to which this Chapter applies is exempt if— (a) it contributes to the attainment of one or more of the bus improvement objectives”.


That seems to be not exactly in conflict with but tested against paragraphs (1)(b) and (1)(c), which state that such an agreement is exempt if

“it does not impose on the undertakings concerned restrictions which are not indispensable to the attainment of those objectives”—

I always love these double negatives—and

“it does not afford the undertakings concerned the possibility of eliminating competition in respect of a substantial part of the services in question.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank noble Lords very much for those succinct questions. I turn first to the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, and the operation of the low-emission zones. These are appearing in all parts of the UK. They tend to be devolved to local authorities, which are in a position to make up their own minds how they operate. We have them going in London and Oxford; in Scotland, Glasgow is now in its pilot. They are very much a devolved matter to allow the local authority to decide how to operate them in its own area. In fact, this whole order simply implements the devolved settlement.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked why it has taken so long, with the 2019 Act now coming here in 2023. I guess it is not the first time that legislation in Scotland has taken a while to come through the system. There is nothing particularly controversial in this; I assume it is just how the wheels have turned. This is very much to allow the Scottish Government to proceed with their traffic Bill, and we are working in co-operation with the Scottish Government. Low-emission zones will therefore be run by the local authorities.

The specific question about the ferries is a good one. The briefing I have here is very much in relation to the buses, because there will be some changes to the bussing arrangements. It is a change from the established system of quality partnerships to a new partnership basis, where the local authority will have a different arrangement with franchise operators. The noble Lord, Lord Bruce, is absolutely right to say that there is very little competition on the ferries, with Western Ferries perhaps being one of the few cases where there is. If the noble Lord does not mind, I will follow up specifically on that because the buses point is well covered but the ferries point is not covered quite so well.

On the other questions that arose, the DVLA remains in Swansea and remains a UK institution. All this does is to allow the transfer of information effectively from the DVLA to the Scottish authorities, so that will remain in place. Similarly, the Joint Air Quality Unit shall remain. The whole point of devolution is to allow the UK institutions to remain in place and the Scottish Government to interact with them.

In terms of the justice impact, there is always an impact assessment done on legislation. That is done by the Scottish Government on their legislation; we do not do a further impact assessment. The Scottish Government have done their impact assessment on this Act and they consider it to be positive for the community and the people of Scotland.

There is a similar issue around the role of the CMA and the Competition Act. We are not changing anything to do with UK law around the Competition Act. It remains absolutely as it was before; all we are doing is making a provision for bespoke competition regimes to apply, and it is part of the devolution settlement that that is the case. This is very much Scotland being allowed to run its own transport system and to make its own decisions locally, but by referencing UK institutions when required.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

Can I help the Minister by defining my question more precisely? In that paragraph there is a balance between two concepts: one is better buses and the other is preserving competition. Somebody has to decide which of those arguments works. I would have thought that could result in the CMA coming into conflict with the Scottish Government or the Scottish local authority that wants to introduce a much better bus service, or have I totally misread that?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The local rules for competition will be set by the Scottish Government within the Scottish jurisdiction. The whole point of this is to allow them to do that; they will set their own rules, hence the reason for changing the arrangements around buses. Under this order, the Scottish Government are able to implement the Act that allows them to change the competition rules for themselves, within their country. That is fully devolved to the Scottish Government.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

Would the Minister be kind enough to review that answer and, if he is not entirely happy with it, write to me?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I would be very happy to clarify that point. We have covered the matters raised, so I will finish by reflecting and agreeing with the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, on how the majority of business done between the two Governments is done by officials, behind the scenes, reasonably competently. We work very hard to do that through the interministerial groups that we now have with the Scottish Government. We have a very difficult situation in the other place today—the first time a Section 35 order has ever been implemented—but, on the whole, we work together closely. On that basis, I beg to move.