Brexit

Lord Tugendhat Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tugendhat (Con)]

My Lords, there is one matter on which I am able to agree with the Prime Minister: that the Government should get on with Brexit. As much as I regret the result of the referendum, I think it has to be honoured, as indeed do the pledges in the major parties’ manifestos in the 2017 election. It grieves me to make this point, but I also fear that, after all that has happened, it is no longer practical to think in terms of a return to the status quo ante and Britain simply resuming its position in the EU as if nothing had happened.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, I wish the Government well in their efforts to secure a deal; I hope they succeed and I look forward to supporting it if they do. This brings me to the first point on which I disagree with the Prime Minister: the repeated assertions by him and his allies that it is somehow because of remainer plots and prevarications that we are still in the EU. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, referred to this. The reason why we are still in the EU is, above all, that the Prime Minister—before he became Prime Minister—and other leavers in the Conservative Party, among our so-called allies in the Democratic Unionist Party and in the Labour Party would not support Mrs May’s efforts to secure a deal. Far more people who voted remain in the referendum supported her than opposed her, and it was the so-called leavers who created the difficulties.

My next point of disagreement with the Prime Minister concerns his insistence on a departure date regardless of terms. To announce in advance that one will walk away from a negotiation on a given date means announcing in advance when one will be giving up the struggle. I have to say that if ever there were an act of surrender, it is that. Instead of leaving in a huff, like a child not getting its way in a game, the Government owe it to the nation to stay at the table until they get the best deal they can. That is what Mrs Thatcher did during the epic struggle over the British budget negotiation, which I remember all too well on a personal basis. That is what Mrs Thatcher did and what the Government should do now. This point is particularly apposite in the light of all the documents concerning the Government’s plans that were issued just before this debate. Obviously, like everybody else, I have only had an opportunity to glance at them, but a glance is quite sufficient to show that they contain a number of new elements, to put it mildly, and move a number of goalposts. To expect our negotiating partners to get their minds around all that and reach conclusions in the time allotted is really asking too much.

As the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, pointed out, there is all the difference in the world between a deal and no deal, between an orderly and a disorderly departure. Leaving is a massive step: it changes the whole direction of Britain’s trade and external relations after a period of over 40 years. It is vital that such a manoeuvre be conducted with the minimum disruption possible. As older Members of this House will recall, when we joined the European Community, as it then was, we had a transition period in order to adjust to the disciplines, the rules and so forth we were taking on. We had a transition period going in and it would be greatly in our interest to have a transition period going out. I say that not just because short-term disruption will cause pain to the British people—whether it is more pain or, as my noble friend Lord Lilley said it will be, less pain—but because it is certainly going to be disadvantageous. I have not heard anybody argue that the consequences of a no-deal departure would actually be beneficial to the economy.

So, there is that short-term reason but also, the manner in which we leave will create the platform on which we will be building for the future. If we are, as far as possible, to minimise the disadvantages of leaving the European Union and maximise the opportunities it may offer, we need to go about the process in a deliberate and orderly fashion. Growing apart from the European Union should be a managed process, like separating conjoined twins, not some exercise carried out in a rush in order to meet an arbitrary timetable. One reason we are in the mess we are is that those who campaigned to leave the European Union had no idea what means were required to do so. They wanted an end but they did not understand, or did not think about, the means. If we were to crash out now, whether it will be as easy as my noble friend Lord Lilley says or as difficult as others say, that would be the worst possible basis for building for the future, for minimising the disadvantages and for taking advantage of the opportunities.

Extension of Article 50

Lord Tugendhat Excerpts

Wednesday 25th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

We have indeed given extensive thought and consideration to all the possible impacts of no deal. If the noble Earl wishes to stick around until later this afternoon, we will be updating the House further.

[Lord Tugendhat (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that in some ways the collapse of Thomas Cook provides a dress rehearsal for what might happen in the event of no deal? A no-deal crash out would certainly be very damaging to this country but, as in the case of the Thomas Cook collapse, it would have reverberations all over Europe, leading to job losses and financial losses in all kinds of unexpected places.

[Lord Callanan]

No, I am afraid I would not agree with my noble friend that there is any parallel between the two events. The collapse of Thomas Cook, about which we are to get a Statement, is totally unrelated to Brexit and—

EU: Law-making Process

Lord Tugendhat Excerpts

Monday 1st July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

As someone who worked in the institutions for 15 years, I think it took me all those 15 years to understand them. I think it is important to understand how the EU legislative process works. I am delighted to hear that the noble Lord will allow the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, to read his books. Perhaps I can act as a bit of a matchmaker here and suggest that he might want to send him copies, so that he does not need to detain us by asking Questions about it.

[Lord Tugendhat (Con)]

My Lords, is my noble friend aware of the old saying in the Army that time spent on reconnaissance is rarely wasted? In other words, one ought to know what the other side is doing and to be aware of its decision-making processes. No doubt he will have followed closely—I hope he has—the various tractations between Switzerland and the European Union. They are engaged in almost permanent negotiations, as will be the case with us. Does he not therefore feel that a certain amount of knowledge about how the other side works and how it takes decisions would enable British public opinion to judge more easily the policies that the Government pursue?

[Lord Callanan]

I know that my noble friend also understands the working of the EU extremely well from his time in the European Commission. I have been following the discussions with Switzerland quite closely. I note that there is not yet an agreement, but we will want to see how that pans out and what implications, if any, it has for our negotiations.

Brexit: Date of Exit

Lord Tugendhat Excerpts

Monday 8th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

The Prime Minister and the Cabinet agreed that date. The Prime Minister made the proposal but, as the noble Baroness will understand, given her extensive experience of European law, this is a matter for negotiation with the European Union. The Council of 28 will decide that on Wednesday.

[Lord Tugendhat (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend not recall that, when the legislation first went through Parliament, a number of us warned that, if we are to secure an orderly withdrawal from the European Union, it would be better not to fix a date in the calendar but to allow the negotiations to take their course, and that by fixing a date we are putting a gun to our own head? I would be grateful if he would say whether he recalls that. Does he not also agree that, when the country faces a crisis—and we certainly face a crisis now—it is in the British tradition to seek all-party agreement to get out of it?

[Lord Callanan]

I agree with my noble friend that there were extensive debates on all aspects of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill at the time—at late hours of the day and night—and the matter of the date was of course discussed. It would of course be preferable to have all-party agreement across the House, if we can, and we are trying to get that.

Brexit: Article 50 Period Extension Procedure

Lord Tugendhat Excerpts

Monday 18th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I refer the noble Lord to the answer I gave earlier to the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford. I do not agree that there should be a further people’s vote; we have already had a people’s vote and we should implement that one first.

[Lord Tugendhat (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister is of course quite right to say that a majority of people voted to leave the European Union. Does he not therefore think it rather ironic that it is, by and large, Members of Parliament who are strongly in favour of leave who are doing so much to undermine the Prime Minister’s plans to get us out of the European Union on the date that the Government promised and now look as though they cannot deliver?

[Lord Callanan]

There are indeed many ironies in this process, and that is one of the largest.

Brexit: Preparations and Negotiations

Lord Tugendhat Excerpts

Monday 23rd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tugendhat (Con)]

My Lords, I begin by associating myself with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, about Lord Carrington. I think at this time we are all very conscious that, in the Conservative Party, we miss Lord Carrington’s wisdom and his sense of honour.

The noble Lord, Lord Birt, was quite right when he said that, while one might regret the result of the referendum—as he and I do—the Government have a duty to seek to carry out the instruction of the majority of the British people. The Prime Minister deserves credit for the efforts she is making to do that in a manner that mitigates the economic damage that might flow from the decision and seeks to puts us in a position from which we can compete successfully under a new regime. Her document may not be perfect, but I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Butler, and my noble friends Lord Bridges and Lord Jopling, that it provides a basis for negotiation and should be treated in a positive fashion in that light.

What I find so hard to understand about so many members of my party—in particular Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg and others who think like them—is their refusal to recognise the practical difficulties in leaving the EU. They attack the Prime Minister’s plans with grandiloquent verbosity, ludicrous historical analogies and sweeping generalisations, but they put nothing in their place. They also talk only to the British people, with no consideration of how our departure from the EU involves negotiating with the Commission and the EU 27, and that they too have legitimate interests to defend and aspirations to pursue. The right reverend Prelate had something sensible to say on that score.

As the White Paper points out, the nature of our trade with the EU is quite different in many important respects from our trade with the rest of the world because of the supply chains and the just-in-time processes that link our manufacturing industry inexorably with plants in other EU countries, and they with us. This is the result in part of the EU system that has been built up over the past 40 or more years, but it is also a result of geography. It is very important that we should seek to maintain frictionless trade in Europe, because the arrangements we have in Europe cannot be replicated elsewhere in the world. I hope very much that the ambitions—although rather unquantified—of the great free-traders who support Brexit are realised. I hope that we achieve the success that they promise us. However, it is very important to preserve what we have as far as we can within Europe, because those arrangements cannot be replicated elsewhere. The noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, dwelt wisely on these issues, and I suspect that what he said may be a harbinger of the future.

Whatever happens, our Prime Minister is not going to be able to negotiate successfully on the issues in the White Paper, or on any other issues, unless she enjoys the support of her colleagues in government and in Parliament. For as long as the Commission and the EU 27 have good reason to believe that she cannot get a deal through Parliament, they will be reluctant to make concessions or to compromise. There is a direct correlation between the strength of the Prime Minister’s position at Westminster, and among public opinion, and her strength at the negotiating table. Those who constantly seek to undermine her, while pleading patriotism, are doing the country a great disservice.

I have one final issue to raise about those who look forward so blithely to working under WTO rules. My first point—and I stand ready to be corrected—is that there is no significant trading partner of the European Union that relies solely on WTO rules in its trade with the Union. Secondly, this is a particularly bad moment to become wholly dependent on WTO rules, as its dispute arbitration mechanism is on the verge of breakdown, owing to the fact that President Trump is unwilling to appoint a judge to the panel, and, very shortly, it is unlikely to be quorate. Thirdly, there is all the difference in the world between a carefully prepared and transitioned change on the one hand, and an overnight crash out on the other. Fourthly, given the nature and intensity of our trade with the European Union, and the role of the supply chains and the just-in-time processes, we in any case need something much better than WTO rules. The Prime Minister deserves our support in trying to achieve it and I believe that, with the White Paper, she has at least thrown the ball into the lineout. I hope it comes out in a satisfactory way.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Tugendhat Excerpts

Report: 6th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 8th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robertson of Port Ellen (Lab)]

My Lords, in the dim and very distant past, responsibility was given to me by Neil Kinnock—now my noble friend Lord Kinnock—for dealing with the Maastricht treaty Bill in the House of Commons. John Major had come back from the Amsterdam summit with a flawed agreement and an opt-out on the Social Chapter of the Maastricht treaty. We somehow had to protect the treaty, which we supported, while making the case against the exclusion of the Social Chapter. For over a year and a half, I, along with my party and 26 Conservative MPs, one of whom was to go on to lead his party, ran the Government ragged and made life for my now friend, John Major, a complete misery.

Therefore, I know a little bit about the parliamentary tactics involved in dealing with European legislation. I know a bit about the European issue as well, and maybe that is why I have played such a small part in these debates up until now—I have had my fill of it in the past. But I knew about the way in which tactics play out. A lot of my friends in the House of Commons —the European supporters, some of whom are speaking in this debate tonight—kept questioning the tactics of the Front Bench. They kept asking, “Why are we doing this? We’re endangering the project as a whole”. I said, “Wait a bit. We’ve worked out the strategy and the tactics”. I also had to pacify the Eurosceptics on our Back Benches, who thought that I was not opposing enough. At the end of the day, because our strategy and tactics were right, we inflicted the first defeat on the Conservative Government in 14 years, and it required a Motion of confidence by the Prime Minister to get the opt-out from the Social Chapter through.

During this debate I have listened to my noble friends—they are long-standing friends as well—and they make a powerful case. Crashing out of the European Union, as we might do, would be almost fatal to the economy of this country and to the future generations for whom we have responsibility. However, I have to say to these noble friends that our Front Bench has been incredibly successful up until now by taking a careful and calculated view of the issues involved here. We have given the House of Commons a series of issues on which it can make the final decision. We have not overegged the pudding or overstretched ourselves; we have been careful, because my noble friends Lady Hayter and Lady Smith have carefully judged the mood of this House and have anticipated the mood in the other House. If it is their calculated view tonight that we should not vote for this amendment, I shall accept that judgment.

[Lord Tugendhat (Con)]

My Lords, it really is intolerable that my noble friend Lord Forsyth should give lectures about loyalty at a time when the Foreign Secretary is writing in the Daily Mail and the European Research Group is laying down ultimata. It is intolerable that he should cast doubts over the loyalty of my noble friend Lady Verma. Of course he is right to point out that we are considering the withdrawal Bill and to say that we are considering a number of matters that the House of Commons has already considered, but the role of the House of Lords is to give the House of Commons the opportunity to consider things a second time. In the end, its will will of course prevail, but we have a duty and a right to ask it to consider matters a second time.

Since the House of Commons last considered these matters, time has moved on and we have seen members of the Cabinet at each other’s throats. We have seen Ministers openly defy the Prime Minister in a way that I have never seen in the nearly 50 years since I was first elected to Parliament in 1970. We have seen Back-Benchers laying down ultimata in a way that has not been seen before. We have seen the most senior Ministers in the Government, as well as Back-Benchers, divided over the direction in which the country should go. If they are divided over the direction in which the country should go and if they are trying to hem in the Prime Minister, reduce her range of options and drive her down the road towards the hardest possible Brexit, we have a right to widen those options and to give her and other members of the Cabinet and the House of Commons a wider choice than they might otherwise have. It is not a question of thwarting the will of the people or of delaying the Bill; it is a question of trying to improve it in a way that will help the House of Commons reach sensible conclusions about the kind of relationship that this country should have with the European Union after our departure.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Tugendhat Excerpts

Committee: 10th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 26th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I have indeed said that none of us gained a mandate from the election. That is precisely the position in which we all find ourselves. We should therefore be modest and moderate in the way in which we attempt to interpret the confused and disengaged opinion of the British public, with which we now struggle.

In the Statement the Prime Minister has just given in the Commons, which is about to be repeated in this House, I was very struck by the warmth it attaches to our co-operation with our European partners, the solidarity we gain from other members of the European Union with whom we have “shared values and interests”, and the assumption that we need to continue to co-operate with them on major issues from resisting President Trump’s tariffs and Russian threats to a range of other areas from which we will absent ourselves in March 2019 under the current arrangement. Therefore, as these negotiations move on, we need to continue this process of discovering where our interests lie, how we will continue to co-operate with our neighbours and partners if and when we leave, and not to leave until we are sure that we have a worthwhile alternative arrangement agreed.

We know why this measure is in the Bill: the hardliners in the Conservative Party and the Government have reached a point where they are prepared to accept all sorts of concessions that the Prime Minister may make to the European Union so long as we leave. The most important thing for them is that we leave what they consider to be the hated domination of the European Union. They have no thought of shared values and interests because they want to be out of the European Union. They want to be out even if we have a transition period of a further 21 months in which we continue to accept and follow all the rules and regulations of the European Union without being present around the table.

It is absolutely against the national interest for us to leave the table until the end of the transition period or to do so until we know—and Parliament has agreed—what our future relationship with the European Union will be in a range of economic, foreign policy, defence and internal security areas. We must not be stuck, as other Members said, because we have a fudge in October and a general political agreement without much content, and, following the Foreign Secretary saying to us, “You’re all too pessimistic about this. Let’s just be optimistic”, we then jump in, splash, and hope that the water is deep enough.

[Lord Tugendhat (Con)]

My Lords, this is the only intervention I will make in Committee, and I shall do it rather less contentiously than my old friend, the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire. However, I agree with the underlying thrust of what he said, just as I agreed with the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington.

At the heart of these amendments is a matter of trust. Initially, the change was put into the Bill, as a number of noble Lords said, because there were people in this party and in the Government who doubted the Prime Minister’s and the Government’s resolve to take us out of the European Union. I do not think that anybody can doubt her resolve on that point now, or doubt the resolve of the Government. The negotiations are moving ahead, and, whether or not one is quite as optimistic as Mr Davis was on television yesterday, clearly they are moving ahead better than many people at one time expected, and a deal looks a likely outcome. Therefore we do not need to worry about giving credibility to the Government’s ambition; we need to worry about making sure that we are in a position to secure the best deal we possibly can.

Anybody who has been involved in a negotiation, whether international or commercial, or to buy a house, knows that if one puts a gun to one’s head, one puts oneself at a great disadvantage. It seems extraordinary that we should be confronted with the proposition in a Bill of this sort that puts our negotiators at a disadvantage. Then there is the other point, which my noble friend Lord Hailsham and others have raised, on parliamentary sovereignty. The Bill takes the decision out of the hands of Parliament, because the curtain comes down at a particular point. Again, that makes it harder than it need be for us to secure the best possible deal.

There has been a large element of unanimity in this debate. Although I recognise that my noble friend on the Front Bench is no doubt operating within tight guidelines, I hope that she will be able to indicate that, having heard the contributions to this debate and having registered the unanimity, she will be able to undertake to go away and think about it and try to find some means to ensure that we do not put a gun to our negotiators’ heads.

[Lord Bowness (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly to the amendments in this group, particularly Amendment 343, to which my noble friend the Duke of Wellington has already spoken.

The Government frequently tell us from the Dispatch Box that they require flexibility in the negotiations, despite at the very beginning having ruled out the customs union, the single market and anything to do with the Court of Justice. Almost every single day brings to the forefront new problems that have not been recognised to date. Whether it is Gibraltar, Northern Ireland, the motor trade or pharmaceuticals, the difficulties are enhanced by our inability to contemplate the arrangements that we have already ruled out. I fear that the Government still refuse to tell people that the method of executing what they apparently see as a binding instruction to leave is deeply flawed. It would be possible to leave and remain in the customs union and the single market and recognise the Court of Justice for certain purposes. Indeed, this is being recognised in the proposed transition or implementation agreements which are being talked about.

Brexit: Sectoral Impact Assessments

Lord Tugendhat Excerpts

Thursday 2nd November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I understand that several noble Lords will be looking forward to the publication of sections of these documents in some sort of macabre sense, thinking that they will somehow provide succour to their view, but they may be disappointed when they see them. As I said, they are a whole series of long and complicated documents—I have read a number of them. It is exactly as I have said: they are sectoral analyses of different sectors of the economy and the effect it might have on our negotiations with our EU partners.

[Lord Tugendhat (Con)]

My Lords, it is of course encouraging that the Government have undertaken these assessments and I am sure we all look forward to seeing them. But can the Minister tell me whether the Government have undertaken similar assessments of the impact of Brexit on different countries, regions, industries and economic sectors in the EU 27? That, too, is highly relevant to the outcome of these negotiations.

[Lord Callanan]

My Lords, there is a huge amount of work going on across government on all these matters to inform our negotiating position. As I said earlier, it is interesting that the EU negotiators have decided not to publish similar documents on their side. I assume that they have done similar work to inform their negotiating position.

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Tugendhat Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Tuesday 7th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby]

My Lords—

[Lord Tugendhat (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, we will hear from the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, and then from the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat. Then, unless anybody else wishes to speak, we will move on to the Front Benches to conclude this debate.

[Lord Naseby]

My Lords, I shall be brief. I concur with what my noble friend has just said. We forget the effect this is having on the ordinary people outside. They knew what they were voting about when they voted at the referendum. Both individuals and businesses were fed up with the way that restrictions were put on their lives and regulations imposed. We have to recognise that fact.

It was my privilege in the other place to be Chairman of Ways and Means. There were 500 amendments to the Maastricht Bill. Many more were chucked out. The ones that were not successful were thrown out because they were out of order. They were wrecking amendments. They were defective. I find it quite extraordinary that your Lordships’ House is spending several hours on what is basically a defective amendment. There are better ways. If the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, is not capable of tabling an amendment that is in order, so be it, but he is a highly creative lawyer and there are other lawyers on the Liberal Benches who perhaps can produce an amendment that is not defective, in which case this House should rightly debate it. But as it stands, this amendment is defective in all four elements. Noble Lords should bear in mind that it is not wise for our House to vote on amendments which have huge implications and are defective. It would be much more sensible to take it back and maybe on another occasion find some means to move forward.

Ultimately, I trust our Prime Minister. I trust the right honourable David Davis to negotiate well. I trust them to do their very best for the ordinary people who have voted for it all. Frankly, what we are doing this afternoon—if we are doing anything—is undermining the public’s confidence in this House. Confidence is a very delicate flower and it affects not just us here or the public; it affects all the nation, all the businesses, all commerce, and we should not be undermining that confidence. I will certainly not be voting for the amendment.

[Lord Tugendhat]

My Lords, as the House knows, I speak as one who very much regrets the result of the referendum but who now feels that we must put it behind us and work to create the best possible relationship we can with the European Union. I feel that this amendment muddies the waters. I remind the House of the words of that very wise woman, George Eliot, who said:

“Among all forms of mistake, prophecy is the most gratuitous”.


The amendment goes down the road of prophecy. We can have no idea how the negotiations are going to unfold. Personally, I feel more optimistic about them than some people but we can have no idea how they are going to unfold or what the parliamentary situation or the situation in the European Union or anything else will be in two years’ time.

We can be certain of only one thing, and that was the point made by my noble friend Lord Howard. Generally speaking, my noble friend and I disagree on matters relating to Europe but he is quite right that the Government will stand or fall by the way in which they conduct these negotiations. Whether or not there is a deal, the House of Commons will pass judgment on the Government’s performance. It will either support the Government or reject them but either way, its will will prevail. That is a very simple matter. The amendment would put in place a complicated structure which would make it very much more difficult for the House of Commons to assert its authority. I quite understand that the purpose of the amendment is to enhance the authority of Parliament but its effect would be to diminish the capacity of the House of Commons to hold the Government to account. For that reason, I hope very much that the House will reject it.

[Viscount Ridley]

My Lords—