Human Rights: UK Application

Lord Trimble Excerpts

Wednesday 18th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulks]

The noble Baroness has particular expertise and knowledge of this area, and I defer to her knowledge, as it were, on the ground. The application of the law in relation to human rights should of course be common across England and Wales.

[Lord Trimble (Con)]

My Lords, I draw the Minister’s attention to the Dudgeon case, which concerned the legalisation of homosexuality. Mr Dudgeon was from Northern Ireland, where homosexuality was still an offence when it was not an offence elsewhere. He went to the European Court, which held that human rights must be uniform throughout the country. I think that that might be relevant here, too.

[Lord Faulks]

The question of uniformity is difficult. Although the European Court of Human Rights maintains certain core standards, it nevertheless acknowledges a margin of appreciation for all members of the Council of Europe. We may well feel that some countries respect these better than others, but unless there is a violation of a convention right, that is a matter for the individual country.

European Union Referendum Bill

Lord Trimble Excerpts

Wednesday 18th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tyler]

I have had that discussion with the Electoral Commission. It does not regard that as a particular obstacle in this case. I am grateful to the noble Viscount for helping me in that respect.

Any reference to the disadvantages of piecemeal constitutional change is frankly absurd, particularly from that side of the House. When female suffrage was extended, that is exactly what we had: piecemeal changes. I used to be a historian. It was Disraeli who started this process. The Conservatives have been at it ever since. They always tell us that they want change on an incremental basis. That is constantly what we are told. It was the same with female suffrage. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Morgan, who said that he heard some of the arguments we have been hearing today before, at the time of the extension of female suffrage. My wife and I went to see the excellent film about that subject, and there were occasions when I thought I was listening to the present-day House of Lords.

[Lord Trimble (Con)]

I have been reflecting on this issue and the piecemeal way it has been done. Presumably when David Cameron decided that he wanted to make sure that people aged between 16 and 18 did not have a vote, it must have been because he considered, or feared, that most of them would vote to leave.

[Lord Tyler]

I do not follow that because I do not think that at this stage the Conservative Party has collectively made up its mind. It will be very interesting to see what happens, because a large number of Conservative Members take the view that this is an inevitable change. That was reflected in the contributions of a number of Conservative Members in the Bill Committee.

The evolution of our constitution has always been piecemeal. Indeed, down the other end, the Government are currently changing the constitution, through English votes for English laws—EVEL, or evil, as some would prefer it— on a piecemeal basis. It may be that before Christmas, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, will come forward with another piecemeal change to our constitution. Are noble Lords going to be against that? Some may be, but I do not think that others will be. It is frankly absurd to argue that we cannot make a change because it is piecemeal and ad hoc.

I have a great deal of sympathy with those who say that we should in the longer term have a constitutional convention. I have no problem with that—I have always thought that—but here and now we have a Bill before your Lordships’ House, and we have to deal with the franchise. We have already agreed some changes to the franchise, not least to include your Lordships in the electorate for this referendum.

I do not understand the argument that somehow, it is not the right time. That was what they said about female suffrage before the First World War, and some went on saying it after the First World War. We have a Bill before us and a big decision for the citizens of this country to take in the near future. Those young people who will be so affected by the outcome—just like their colleagues and compatriots were in Scotland a year ago—should be given the opportunity to participate in the choice about their future.

I was challenged earlier about why this situation is exceptional. I have an expert witness. Last week, David Cameron described this vote as,

“a huge decision for our country, perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes. And it will be the final decision”.

That is the strongest argument I have heard for extending the franchise to this particular group. The Prime Minister is absolutely right, and it must surely follow that this group of our fellow citizens cannot be denied a say in that decision.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Trimble Excerpts

Monday 1st June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trimble (Con)]

My Lords, I start by echoing the praise which has been given throughout this House to the three maiden speeches that we have heard. We have also heard a number of other extremely good speeches, but I want to move on to my own.

I begin with a couple of what might seem like minor points. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, referred in their speeches to the funding of political parties. I come with a suggestion which is borrowed from the German example. In Germany they have a process whereby the person filling in his tax form can tick a box and by doing so a proportion of his tax will then go to a particular body. They use the system in Germany for financing churches, but I suggest that we should use it here for financing parties. It would not mean people paying any more money; some of their tax money would be used for it. The support of the party would then come from ordinary people and ordinary voters. That may not be the exclusive way of doing it, but I suggest it because we clearly have a system that needs repair. It is one suggestion.

Another thing that may need repair is the provisions on human rights. I shall mention two things, one of which is really quite important but has been mentioned only in passing. It was in our manifesto and concerns the application of some aspects of human rights law to the Armed Forces.

Originally, the situation was quite clear: the Armed Forces were bound by the law on armed conflict, which is basically the Geneva conventions-plus. But in recent years—the European Court of Human Rights in particular has been guilty of this—human rights law concepts which previously had nothing to do with armed conflict have been brought into armed conflict law, and they are having very negative consequences there. I was at a conference a month or two ago where a number of persons from various countries, partly in Europe, partly elsewhere, were discussing this issue. A representative from NATO said that NATO is now very worried about the way in which human rights concepts have come into the Northern Ireland conflict. This needs to be fixed or our Armed Forces will become ineffective.

With regard to the manifesto commitment in the Queen’s Speech for a Bill of Rights, I would be willing to see what comes along and I do not think that we should jump to conclusions. There is a lot of jumping to conclusions going on here but let us wait to see what comes. If it is a genuine British Bill of Rights, I do not see a problem. A number of people are saying that the European convention is embedded in the devolved arrangements for Northern Ireland and Scotland, but I do not see a problem there. If the legislative capacity of the Northern Ireland Assembly is such that it cannot legislate in contravention of the convention, and if it cannot legislate in contravention of a British Bill of Rights, I do not see a problem. Therefore, something has been turned into a problem when it is not really a problem.

Earlier, we heard an excellent speech from my noble friend Lord Forsyth. I found myself agreeing with virtually everything he said, but he made one really big point which we should all take to heart and think about, and that is the consequence of this general election for the Smith proposals. Those proposals were endorsed by Labour, the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats in Scotland, who, between them, got three seats. However, the proposals were not endorsed in the manifesto of the SNP. Instead, it went down the road of fiscal autonomy and got 56 Members. In that situation, in normal politics you turn round and say that the Smith proposals are dead because they have been rejected by the Scottish electorate. However, we are continuing with the proposals. One axiom from literature is that you should never reinforce failure, but that is what we are doing. I think that we should take what happened there as an opportunity to stand back and think about those proposals.

That brings me to what has been coming from a number of quarters here: the suggestion that we need some sort of convention or body, the sense that constitutional matters have been handled on a piecemeal and short-term basis, and the feeling that putting the union on a sounder footing needs more than just repeating a phrase; it needs to be thought through. That thinking through should come not from continually scratching the sore of devolution but from looking at the other end and asking what the core matters of our union are—the matters that must be uniform throughout the state. We cannot say that everything is up for grabs; there has to be a core element.

I came across a suggestion of that from a colleague in the Commons, John Redwood. In his blog last week he said:

“Our union is above all a currency, benefits and tax union”,

and of course for those things there must be uniform standards throughout the kingdom. You can change some aspects and you can devolve matters, but legislation will set the standards. Administration can be devolved and there can be minor variations in these matters but unpicking too much will unpick the whole system. Consequently, we need to think about that as well.

As we know, welfare is a problem at the moment in Northern Ireland. It is an anomaly. For the other devolved bodies, there is no power to legislate for welfare. There is in Northern Ireland, although purely by accident. In 1920 there was no welfare state, so there was no provision for the reservation of welfare legislation to Westminster. After the creation of the welfare state, the Northern Ireland Parliament stuck rigidly to its step-by-step policy and copied GB welfare legislation on to the Northern Ireland statute book en bloc. Northern Ireland voters accepted this. They did not hold Stormont responsible for the ups and downs of welfare policy, knowing that the policy was made in London and that overall they were beneficiaries from it.

That has now been disrupted, but before coming to the specific causes of that disruption, I want to say that if a policy is to be uniform throughout the kingdom, is it really then fair for London to expect the local representatives in a particular part of the kingdom to bear responsibility for the heavy lifting of having that uniformity? I do not think that it is fair but that is what is happening with regard to Northern Ireland.

One then has to turn to the role of Sinn Fein in this matter. A problem arises because Sinn Fein is a single party that operates in both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. If it were two separate parties, the problem would not arise. Sinn Fein might evolve organically into separate parties but that will not happen this year or next year, although it is something that may well happen. However, Sinn Fein’s chief objective at the moment, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, is next year’s elections in the Republic. Because Sinn Fein in Dublin opposes austerity, so it has insisted that the party in the north must do the same. There is reason to believe that the northern party tried to adopt a more sensible line but that it was dragged back into line.

The second point to make about Sinn Fein is that once it has said something in public, it will insist on that even when it is clearly bad for it. It foolishly thinks that this makes it look strong. We have seen these characteristics demonstrated over recent months and it is silly to think that they will change.

Last week, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland was reported as saying that there was a move in the direction of bringing back the power to legislate to Westminster, which I have suggested before. But it was said that the Secretary of State was thinking that there was still some way to go on this. Why dither when the only consequence of waiting is that hundreds of millions of pounds are taken out of the budget, which would involve huge tax cuts in Northern Ireland? The Secretary of State could cure that tomorrow simply by taking steps to bring back legislation. No doubt Members will have noticed that Peter Robinson, the First Minister of Northern Ireland, has endorsed that proposal on several occasions. There may be a fear that if that is done somehow Sinn Fein will react negatively to it—a fear which I think is completely misplaced. If it does something to damage the Assembly, voters in the south will punish it next year, and it knows that. What it does will be limited.

I shall briefly mention the policy of English votes for English laws. I am indebted here to a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, which I heard at a conference we were attending in St Anne’s College many months ago. Apparently, the clerks in the Commons had looked to see how many times a measure had been carried without the support of a majority of Scottish Members. They found that in a 10-year period, that had happened only in the order of four times. Therefore, it is not a big problem.

My final point on that is quite important: the measures in the Commons are supposed to bite on things that relate exclusively to England. If a Bill triggers a Barnett consequential, it is not exclusively English. If it triggers a Barnett consequential, all the people in the devolved areas should be involved and should not be kept out. That is crucial. I have not heard that said and it needs to be borne in mind.

Inquiries Act 2005 (Select Committee Report)

Lord Trimble Excerpts

Thursday 19th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trimble (Con)]

My Lords, I was also a member of the Select Committee which produced this report. Like other Members, I want to thank the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, for his chairmanship of the report and in particular for the way in which he has followed matters up in the interval since we made our report. I will come back to that later.

I had intended to start by quoting paragraph 14 of the report, in which we express our disappointment at the contribution that we had from the Government, but the noble Lord, Lord Richard, has done that in pungent terms and I merely endorse what he said.

I then thought of referring to paragraph 19, in which we challenged the Government. I will be interested to hear what the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, says about this when he replies. In that paragraph, we refer to how we recommend in the report a number of amendments to the Inquiry Rules 2006 and point out that the power exists to make those amendments by order. We suggest that this is so simple a procedure that there is no reason why the Government cannot make these amendments to the Inquiry Rules “within three months”. The Government’s response accepts the recommended changes in the rules but I am not aware of any order coming forward to implement them.

A lot turns on the question of the type of inquiry that one has. I want to touch on that for a moment, first, by referring to the Royal Commission on Tribunals of Inquiry back in the 1960s. It made a number of important recommendations, the sixth of which was:

“No Government should in future set up a tribunal of the type adopted in the Profumo case to investigate any matter causing nation-wide public concern”.

That inquiry was not established under the 1921 Act. It was a non-statutory inquiry and the judge conducted it entirely in private. Witnesses were not permitted to hear the evidence of other witnesses and there was no opportunity for any witness to test the evidence of another witness. Naturally, we described this in our report as unsatisfactory but I much prefer the terms of the royal commission in saying that no such tribunal should be set up in future. I wish that that had been before the Northern Ireland Office when, a few months ago, it decided to establish a private inquiry into the on-the-runs letters. The description of the Profumo inquiry fits pretty well the way in which that inquiry was conducted, which was unfortunate.

However, the main issue is whether the Act should be used or non-statutory inquiries should take place. The starting point here should really be: what was the intention of the 2005 Act? The genesis of the 2005 Act appears to have been in a recommendation made by Sir Anthony Clarke—now the noble and learned Lord, Lord Clarke—in the Thames safety inquiry in 2000. He commented:

“The time has in my opinion come to set up a statutory framework for inquiries generally to replace the various statutes which govern them at present”.

That language was echoed in the Explanatory Notes to the 2005 Bill, which said that the object was,

“to provide a comprehensive statutory framework for inquiries”,

and the Minister introducing the Bill virtually repeated those words. That language points to the Act being used for inquiries generally. It does not say that the Act is optional. It does not say, “We have enacted this Act and you don’t have to pay any attention to it. You can ignore it if you like”. That would be a rather novel proposition for legislation. I know that the practice has developed of non-statutory inquiries and it is perhaps late in the day to challenge that now. However, I suggest that it is not really within the original intention of the Act, which is why we made the recommendations we did in the terms that have been mentioned.

Another issue is perhaps more significant. It is the question of the compliance of the inquiries with the requirements of Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights. It is fairly clear that non-statutory inquiries are not compliant with the ECHR. I will refer to what we said in paragraphs 69, 70 and 74. I will not go through them in detail but the Edwards case is mentioned, as is a subsequent case in which the court directed the setting-up of a number of inquiries and went on to say that steps would have to be taken to ensure that the persons conducting those inquiries had the powers to compel witnesses and the disclosure of documents. I am not quite clear as to how that has happened in practice and whether anything has been done. Again, perhaps the Minister might enlighten us when he replies.

On this matter, the Government say in paragraph 32 of their response that inquests are,

“the main way in which the Government fulfils its responsibilities under Article 2”.

Three comments come to mind with regard to that. First, Article 2 goes wider than inquests. It is not just a matter of unlawful killing but of ill treatment and unlawful killing, so you cannot say that you regard inquests as meeting the requirements of Article 2 when it goes wider than the subject matter of inquests. Secondly, inquests are limited compared to inquiries. I will not go into detail on that. We set that out in paragraph 83 of the report, which shows that it may not be desirable to use inquests to fulfil the requirement of Article 2.

However, there is a more general point to be made because while we have the particular terminology of Article 2 in the ECHR, the general principle nowadays goes further. The second report of the Turkel commission, which I was attached to as an international observer, said:

“The general principles for an ‘effective investigation’ can be found in various international human rights law sources, including binding conventions (such as the Convention against Torture); interpretations of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights by the Human Rights Committee and its decisions in specific cases; and resolutions adopted by the General Assembly of the United Nations”.

It then goes on to refer to the ECHR. If this has migrated into a general obligation on human rights law, it reinforces the point that inquiries should be done on the basis of the statute and with the powers that the statute gives.

In chapter 6 of the report, we deal with another aspect, namely the independence of inquiries. We refer there to the reservations that the Joint Committee on Human Rights had with regard to the various powers that the Government have to influence the conduct of the inquiry, which led the Joint Committee to think that those powers in themselves rendered the inquiries not in compliance with the convention.

We make a number of recommendations in paragraphs 206 to 210. I notice that the Government accept one of those recommendations but reject three of them, particularly the power that they have, as it were, to close down the inquiry. I notice that in their response, the Government say in paragraph 72 that they wish to “retain the flexibility” given by this provision. I think that “flexibility” is not the right word. The word that should have been used is “power” and the power should not be utilised in the way that the existing legislation permits.

My last statement is by way of a digression. I referred to the commission to which I was attached as an international observer. Following the example of the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, in following up matters, he might be interested to know that some months after he took that initiative here, I got together with the other international observer who is domiciled in Australia but who comes to this part of the world from time to time. We both went back to his room to raise the issue with the Israeli Government as to whether they were implementing those recommendations. I suspect, though, that I will have to go back again.

Assisted Dying Bill [HL]

Lord Trimble Excerpts

Friday 16th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

My Lords, this has been a very impressive debate. I completely agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, said about it being in the right tone.

I shall make three points. First, I acknowledge the speech by my noble friend Lord Cashman, which was of immense power and immense pain. He made the incredibly important point that in the circumstances in which he found himself, he was very clear about the distinction between assisted dying and suicide. I understand the difficulty and the pain that must have been involved in making that speech. All Members of Committee appreciate that.

Secondly, there are two separate groups in this group of amendments. One group is those amendments which wish to change various bits of the wording of the Bill to refer more often to the word “suicide”. Not one of those points has been pursued in detail except for the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, as regards Clause 4, in which he sought to suggest that the use in the draft Bill of the word “self-administration” was in some way euphemistic. It was not. It was used because a vital brick in the Bill is that the person has to do the last act to himself or herself. They have to do it to make clear that it is not euthanasia. That is why that word is there; it is not in any way intended to be euphemistic.

As regards the other matter, the Title of the Bill—which is the key point in the debate—I have thought very carefully about what the Bill should be called. I am always wary when I think to myself, “What will other people think I mean?”. When I hear noble Lords speculating about what the public may think, I am always rather wary; all we can do is to go by the words.

I have used the phrase “assisted dying” for three reasons. First, it is accurate. The purpose of my Bill as drafted is to:

“Enable competent adults who are terminally ill to be provided at their request with specified assistance to end their own life”.

That is the wording of the Long Title. Nobody in this debate has questioned its accuracy. What is the right way to convey a Long Title in a short title? In my view the right and most accurate way is by using the words “assisted dying”. That is why, after very considerable thought and having discussed it with people—not just people in favour but also lawyers—I wished to convey accurately what the position was.

The second reason is that to call the Bill “the Assisted Suicide Bill” would, as a matter of law, give the wrong impression. The words “assisted suicide” would give the impression that assistance could be given in any category of suicide. The third reason was that touched upon by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, who said that those engaged in helping people as regards suicide are very antipathetic to the words “committing suicide”. There is a moral opprobrium attached to it. For those three reasons I decided that the right wording was “assisted dying”. I urge the Committee to accept the Title as it is.

[Lord Trimble (Con)]

My Lords, my comments would have been most apposite when I tried to intervene earlier. At that point, the noble and learned Lord was quoting from the contribution from my noble friend Lord Mawhinney, who referred to Clause 4. I observe that that clause talks about prescribing,

“medicines for that person to enable that person to end their own life”.

Does he agree with me that the worst euphemism here is the use of the word “medicines”?

[Baroness O’Neill of Bengarve]

My Lords, we have had a very interesting debate on the first amendment in this group, which is very limited. I observe that the Bill does not alter the law on suicide. Suicide is not a crime. If your Lordships think about it, if suicide is successful, you cannot prosecute.

Arctic Report Card

Lord Trimble Excerpts

Monday 28th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trimble]

My Lords, in the context of the United States, would the Minister consider that the US has greatly reduced its carbon emissions in the past year by reducing its dependence on coal plants through the development of shale gas?

[Baroness Verma]

Yes, my Lords; the noble Lord is right that the United States has reduced its carbon emissions and increased its production of shale gas. However, this country takes the view that we need to ensure that our energy supplies are a mix of renewables and traditional fossil-fuel based. Therefore, although we are looking at shale gas, it will be part of a mix of energy rather than our having a dependency on it.

Elections: Registration

Lord Trimble Excerpts

Monday 31st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords—

[Lord Trimble]

My Lords—

[Noble Lords]

This side!

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McNally]

It is of no use for the noble Lord to say “Ah!” as if he has found out something wonderful and unknown. I admitted that there had been a fall—yes I did—and what I went on to say is that both we and the Northern Irish had learnt lessons from that exercise and the mistakes made. I went on to say—and I hope my noble friend behind me has an opportunity to say this—that we all used to make the “Vote early, vote often” jokes about Northern Ireland, but people are now going across to Northern Ireland to study their success in getting people on the voting register. That is to their credit and is something that we are trying to learn from.

[Lord Trimble]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that bogus registrations are probably the largest avenue for fraudulent voting, that this has been a major problem in England for decades and that it is long past the time that it was cleared up and we got a more honest register—which I am happy to say we now have in Northern Ireland?

[Lord McNally]

I am pleased to have that confirmation from my noble friend. Yes, I make the point again that that is exactly why the Labour Government raised this issue because, perhaps a little complacently, we got used to the idea that this kind of thing did not happen in England. We found out the hard way that that was not true. What we are trying to do—I emphasise this again—is to bring forward a process which is thorough and which will deal with some of the concerns that have been raised, and then move forward to a register that will have full public confidence.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Lord Trimble Excerpts

Wednesday 9th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

I am using the figures that the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, gave. The noble Baroness may well be right that looking at those figures again, we could take other and better figures, but these are the only figures we have at the moment because I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, was asked and refused to answer.

According to the House Library, the Prime Minister is appointing new Peers at a rate well in excess of any of his recent predecessors. The number of new Peers appointed in the first year by Mr Callaghan was 19; by the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, it was 18; by Sir John Major it was 25; by Mr Blair it was 38; and by Mr Brown it was 16. I remind the House that the number appointed by the current Prime Minister before the end of his first year is 116. That is a remarkable trend.

[Lord Trimble]

Steady on. A large chunk of that was the nominations that he inherited from the outgoing Prime Minister and I think the noble and learned Lord should acknowledge that.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

I do not know what number that was. It was perhaps 30 at the most, so that would make the Prime Minister’s figure double the highest figure. I do not think that anyone, except perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, would dispute that the Prime Minister has appointed Peers at a much faster rate than anyone else in recent times and as we understand the effect of the coalition agreement, he has not yet finished. The coalition agreement says:

“Lords appointments will be made with the objective of creating a second chamber that is reflective of the share of the vote secured by the political parties in the last General Election”.

The report of the constitution unit of University College London of 22 November 2010 estimates that fulfilling that commitment will result in a House of 977 compared to the current 786, which makes it already the largest second chamber in the world. The coalition agreement on Lords appointments would therefore mean an additional 200 Peers. Accepting the limitations on the figures, which the noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain, has rightly pointed out—that means that there may be better figures—that would mean an additional cost of £33.5 million. Even if one took a third of that figure to deal with the capital costs, the saving of approximately £12 million each year, which is advanced as the reason for making the cull in MPs, would be dwarfed. The importance of those figures is that they perhaps undermine the justification given.

Even assuming that one put to one side the question of the unsound basis being advanced by the Deputy Prime Minister for culling the number of MPs, the views expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, my noble friend Lord Grocott and the noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain, are very widely shared around the House. If the trend goes on at the rate that has been said, putting aside the costs, the workings of this House will not improve but will get worse.

What the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, is suggesting is not something that will cause delay in the introduction of the reduction of MPs in the other place. It is not in any sense an amendment that cuts to the quick of the Bill. He proposes that the changes will not come into force until legislation has been introduced—only introduced—into either House of Parliament to limit the number of Members of the House of Lords. He is not saying what the number should be and he is not saying how it should be calculated. He is simply saying to the Government, “Put your money where your mouth is and do something about it. What you do is a matter for you in detail but you must address the issue”. That is a moderate and reasoned approach that would find favour around the House. It is a very serious issue which connects in completely with this Bill and I shall be very interested to hear what the noble Lord, Lord McNally, has to say about it.

Elections: Fraud

Lord Trimble Excerpts

Tuesday 5th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I am Deputy Leader of this House and a member of Her Majesty’s Government. The answers that I give from this Dispatch Box are answers for Her Majesty’s Government.

[Lord Trimble]

My Lords, the Minister may be interested to know that after the 1992 general election I attended a meeting in the Home Office as a representative of the Ulster Unionist Party. In the margins of that meeting there was an interesting discussion involving the representatives of two other parties, who discussed the prevalence of electoral fraud in certain regions of England among certain sections of the population, along the same lines as the comments of the noble Baroness that have been referred to. This issue has been around for a long time. People have been pussy-footing around it and failing to deal with a serious problem. Would it not be good if the party opposite, which has neglected to deal with this issue, was a bit more responsible now?

[Lord McNally]

I again make the point that anybody who has specific allegations or evidence should report that to the police and to the returning officer in the constituencies concerned. We are open to discussing with all parties how we can improve the integrity of our system. As my noble friend said, this is not a matter that has blown up simply since the last general election. There will be a full report in January by the Electoral Commission and the police. I suggest that at that time it might be open to the major political parties to look at that report to see whether there are other ways in which we can take this forward. The integrity of our system must be protected.