European Union (Referendum) Bill

Debate between Lord Triesman and Lord Teverson

Friday 31st January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, I should state that I have dual Irish and British nationality. I am putting forward an argument. I do not think there is a perfect answer to this, but I would exclude purely Irish citizens under this definition. In fact, you could argue very strongly that the Republic of Ireland would be by far the most affected other EU member state and therefore perhaps you should include all Irish citizens. I do not think one could sustain that. I just want to make the point that as Britain we need to make up our mind on this area, and we need to be responsible for our decision. I do not think the argument is total, so I put forward a potential opposite view. I take a great interest in this small debate, but I do not think it is quite as straightforward as noble Lords who have spoken so far have said.

[Lord Triesman]

My Lords, I have been very concerned to understand how the conduct of the debate in the course of a referendum could be most useful. Noble Lords will recall that we debated parliamentary constituency boundaries at great length; it was argued that they work for parliamentary elections despite the fact that the homogeneity of almost any of the constituencies was significantly disrupted. Some of them were essentially very artificial; they were no longer built around any kind of core principle but were to meet a numerical target, which I did not agree with but I fully understood.

I make that point because, by and large, local authorities are not constructed that way. Some of the very large ones may be, but a very significant number are constructed around entities where you can see the degree of homogeneity of the economic system that applies in that part of the country. That seems to me to be very important, because I believe that one of the telling debates during any referendum would be on the balance of economic interests for us as a community. Do we see a future? Will our kids continue to want to live here? Will the economic community be capable of sustaining the sorts of schools and kinds of medical provision that we want? All those will be live issues. It is no accident that chambers of commerce and a great many other economic entities in all those communities are organised with that kind of boundary in mind. That is where many of these most telling debates will take place—they will not take place on the grounds of constituencies.

European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Second Agreement amending the Cotonou Agreement) Order 2011

Debate between Lord Triesman and Lord Teverson

Monday 17th October 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, I should like to raise a couple of issues that have arisen from this. First, fishing has been mentioned a couple of times. One of the worst things to be inflicted on the developing world, particularly littoral states, has been the taking out of their fish stocks through EU agreements. Although this has improved over the years, given the complete lack of coastal protection for these nations and the voracious appetite of certain European fleets for those stocks, I wonder whether the Government will make sure through this agreement that the attempt to improve the situation continues.

Secondly, on aid, I am sure that the Minister will be well aware that there is a major aid effectiveness conference taking place in Busan, in Korea, next month. Are the Government encouraging parliamentarians to be present at the conference? There is a lot to be learnt not only by governments but by parliamentarians. Does she have any expectation for outcomes from that conference?

Lastly, it always seemed to me that the Cotonou agreement and its predecessors were made on a very imperialist-based system in terms of how the EU looks at the rest of the world. There is a division between those nation states who were the French and British empires and those who are not. I would like to think that at some point we can end that discrimination and look at the rest of the world in terms of its needs rather than in its imperial past. Do the Government share that view?

[Lord Triesman]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing the order. I should say at the outset that we support it. The changes and the coherence to be added are welcome; trade arrangements will improve; all of that is positive territory.

The Cotonou agreement as a whole has proved, as it was always intended to, an essential framework, fostering development, co-operation, economic and trade integration and security of political institutions in the ACP countries. It makes complete sense for the EU to have embarked on this course, not only because of our long-term economic and political interests in the ACP countries but also because it reflects the colonial past, the legacy of that past and the obligations that we plainly face in dealing with it.

It is encouraging that when the predecessors of the EU in the European Coal and Steel Community forged those institutions in 1951, many of them were still colonial powers in the very countries in which these arrangements are now in place as a result of the Cotonou agreement. That is positive in many ways.

The continued mutual obligations plainly mean that we continue to have a shared EU-ACP interest in co-operation. In many respects, this has matured from simple co-operation into interdependency. Those interdependencies are created for pragmatic, economic and moral considerations. It is encouraging to be able to talk about the work of the EU in such a positive way; we do not always seem to do that in our House; so I am a little encouraged to have had the opportunity to look at that without people snarling about it.

The renewal of Cotonou comes at a critical juncture. Last year, the World Bank estimated that 64 million people had been pushed into extreme poverty by the financial crisis. Of course, most of those were in countries in the developing world. Noble Lords have already mentioned the impact of climate change and famine, which have had an amplified effect because of the financial challenges in the international community, especially in those countries where we are still slipping backwards on the millennium development goals. Those tasks demand a multifaceted response, and that is what the Cotonou agreement and the changes and revisions now help us to produce.

There is a good deal of independent research in Australian universities and universities across Europe that demonstrates that it is the interpenetration of democracy and institution-building with economic progress which gives economic progress the greatest prospect of success. Much of that research also shows that in those countries where you do not have those institutional and democratic opportunities, economic development is tried to the greatest extent.

It is not a perfect agreement. The point has already been made that, even with the new language on non-discriminatory practices, one area has still not been resolved in any way that I think we would regard as satisfactory in Europe. The democratic, economic and civil rights that have been extended in so many ways seem still to exclude those who are in same-sex relationships. That is a great pity. I know that people in the EU have attempted to see these issues raised in the European Parliament and elsewhere but have not perhaps made the progress with the countries on the other side of the agreement that they would have wished for. I just hope that we will not say, “Well, we are where we are”, but take every opportunity that we have in all the revisions that still lie ahead over the 20 years that the agreement will be in place to see whether greater progress can be made.

The Cotonou agreement has carried forward the EU’s 1992 human rights and democratisation policy. We supported it at that time; we have supported it on all occasions since, from its inauguration through its revisions; and we support it today.