Procedure Committee
Debate between Lord Trefgarne and Lord Sewel
Lord Trefgarne (Con)
I should like to make two points. First, I do not agree with my noble friend Lord Steel about financial inducement to retirement. That would be a very bad precedent and I hope that it will not happen. Secondly, what are the detailed arrangements for giving Royal Assent to Bills? Who is supposed to give that assent? Is it the Minister in charge of the Bill or someone else?
The Chairman of Committees
Let me try to deal with the issues in some sort of order. I am involved in so many committees that sometimes even I get a bit confused about which committee is considering what. First, on retirement, I am not aware of any committee actively considering any retirement scheme as such. However, it is always open to any Member, as well as members of the committees concerned, to write and ask a committee to consider a particular scheme or to bring forward proposals. The matter would then be considered by the appropriate committee.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for his intervention on consent, which means that I have won the private office bet that he would do so. We have to realise that this proposal originates from the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee of the House of Commons. That report was considered, quite rightly, by the Commons Procedure Committee, which decided to recommend that consent should be signified at Third Reading in both Houses. That was the nature of the correspondence between the chairman of the House of Commons Procedure Committee and me. There is agreement on that. I recognise that it is a modest reform. If there was a desire for any more far-reaching and radical reform, again, if Members write, the Procedure Committee would give it appropriate consideration.
The noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, raised assent, not consent. We are not dealing with the business of assent; we are dealing with the consent of Her Majesty and the Prince of Wales to the House acting in their quasi-private function.
House of Lords: Royal Gallery Frescos
Debate between Lord Trefgarne and Lord Sewel
Lord Trefgarne
To ask the Chairman of Committees what is the present condition of the two large Maclise frescos in the Royal Gallery; and what are his plans for their restoration.
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Sewel)
My Lords, over the past 12 months a research project with the Cologne University of Applied Sciences has been run by the Curator’s Office to examine the condition of the murals and investigate ways to improve their presentation. At the moment it is too early to say how the murals might be restored, but the results of that research will be available in the autumn, and early indications are positive. A briefing note with further details is available in the Library.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, would it not be a shame if these iconic pictures, part of the House of Lords and part of the House of Lords art collection, were to be allowed to deteriorate further, and will the noble Lord the Lord Chairman do his best to see that that does not happen?
The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, I fully anticipate that the curator, once this research has been completed, will be able to come forward with proposals for the conservation, cleaning and lighting of the murals so that they can be restored to their full glory and vibrancy—I hope before any future visit by a French President.
Procedure of the House
Debate between Lord Trefgarne and Lord Sewel
The Chairman of Committees
Heaven forefend that we get a black market in Questions, my Lords.
I will deal briefly with the many points made in this short debate by noble Lords from all parts of the House. I turn first to the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne. I hope that on the basis of what he has heard about individual Members of the House who are seeking a PNQ quite properly having the opportunity to make written representations and to put their case to the Lord Speaker, he will feel able to withdraw his amendment. He did ask whether I could give some sort of undertaking in principle. I am always loath to use the words—
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I apologise but we cannot actually hear what the noble Lord is saying. Could he speak up a bit?
Lord Sewel
It may have been that I was turning half way. If the noble Lord will forgive me, although I am dealing with his point I will not actually look at him. He asked whether I could give an undertaking in principle that the Lord Speaker would see individual Peers to make oral representations. I am loath to use the words “in principle” because I fear what they sometimes lead to, but I think it is highly likely that if the opportunity arises that might well be possible. But I have to warn noble Lords that the Lord Speaker’s diary is heavily timetabled—it is virtually impossible to find the odd gap in it. Given the very short timescale involved in making these decisions, which are made on the basis of paper representations, it would often be difficult to find such a gap in the short period of time between requesting one and a decision having to be made.
The Chairman of Committees
The noble Lord touches on one of the difficulties that we have. We pride ourselves on being a self-regulating House, and that is a discipline that falls on all of us. Once people start acting beyond the boundaries, it is extremely difficult to rein people in. I am afraid that the only way in which to do that at the moment is for the House to make its displeasure clear. It is not a very attractive means forward, but it is the only one available to us, and it ought to be used sparingly but sometimes quite deliberately.
I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes is now prepared to accept the limit of seven Questions a year. We decided on that because it helps us, a little bit, to work forward to an objective that the committee has of creating a context in which it is more likely that we widen the pool of people who ask questions. That is the right thing to do, and I think that we should try to make progress on that little by little.
I think that that deals with the main issues that have been brought up. At this stage, I ask the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, if he feels able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am obliged to the Chairman of Committees for his response to my amendment. I confess that I continue to be concerned by the difficulty of getting Private Notice Questions agreed. In the time that I have been in your Lordships’ House—a quite considerable time—I have sought to table something like 20 and I have never yet had one agreed. Perhaps I shall be luckier one day. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
House Committee
Debate between Lord Trefgarne and Lord Sewel
The Chairman of Committees
That a Select Committee be appointed to set the policy framework for the administration of the House and to provide non-executive guidance to the Management Board; to approve the House’s strategic, business and financial plans; to agree the annual Estimates and Supplementary Estimates; to supervise the arrangements relating to financial support for Members; and to approve the House of Lords Annual Report;
That, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the following members be appointed to the Committee:
L Alderdice, L Campbell-Savours, L Craig of Radley, B D’Souza (Chairman), B Hollis of Heigham, L Laming, L McNally, B Royall of Blaisdon, L Sewel, L Strathclyde, L True, L Wakeham;
That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records;
That the Committee have leave to report from time to time;
That the Reports of the Committee shall be printed, regardless of any adjournment of the House.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, perhaps I may put just one question to the Lord Chairman. In line 2 of his Motion, he refers to the Select Committee being able to offer “non-executive guidance” to the Management Board. Are there not occasions when some plain speaking might be required, as far as the Management Board is concerned? Would not the words in his Motion preclude that?