Syria

Lord Trefgarne Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, what are the prospects of success for Kofi Annan’s mission and has the Foreign Secretary very firmly supported them, as I believe he has?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The prospects of success obviously remain clouded while there is no sign of all the warring and killing parties in Syria agreeing to anything. However, the movement that was agreed at the weekend was not all that we would have wished but it was something. The agreement was that there would be a combined move to try to achieve—with the aid of the Kofi Annan plan—a transitional government body, upon which the beginnings of peace and dialogue could be built. So, the Kofi Annan plan is there. It is the path to the transitional government body that has now been agreed. There was disagreement about who should be on that body. This was an undoubted difficulty that we cannot gloss over. However, the Kofi Annan plan is a means to an end and it is still in place.

Arms Trade Treaty

Lord Trefgarne Excerpts

Monday 21st May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord paints a bad picture of the international arms trade, and it is bad—largely because of illegal arms trading, with blind eyes being turned by Governments. In our case, we have one of the most rigid supervisions of criteria applications for arms export in the world. We operate on a very close case-by-case basis, and it is generally agreed looking back over the last two tumultuous years in the Arab spring that very rigid controls have broadly operated. Certainly, we have received no evidence to the contrary. But his broader picture of a world awash in arms is precisely the one that must cease and to which this arms trade treaty, if we can get it in the form we want, will make some contribution. It will not cure all the problems but it will make some contribution.

[Lord Trefgarne]

Will my noble friend make available the current draft of this important document so that we can all express our views on it?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I will have to see whether there is a draft at this stage. The next stage of conferring in July is aimed at creating a draft, upon which thereafter a treaty could be built. If there are documents that can be usefully circulated, I will certainly look and see what can be done.

Libya

Lord Trefgarne Excerpts

Friday 1st April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I will not detain your Lordships for more than a few moments, but I start by declaring an interest in that I am, and have been for some six or seven years, chairman of the Libyan British Business Council. I have visited Libya some 15 to 20 times over the past five or six years and naturally have many contacts in that country, some of whom I have been in touch with in recent times.

The arrival of Moussa Koussa in London the other day is an important step forward. It demonstrates the degree of dissent among Gaddafi’s immediate supporters. Moussa Koussa, who I have met in past years, was a very senior member of Gaddafi’s regime and his departure will be a considerable blow. No doubt there are other defectors waiting to leave; I hope so. I believe that the process of senior people leaving Gaddafi in a steady stream is an important element in bringing the matter to a conclusion, and I hope that that will happen very soon.

There are three important steps that need to be taken. First, the steps which the Government are now taking to bring to an end the violence going on in Libya, and above all the attacks by Gaddafi’s forces on civilians and other elements, particularly in the east of the country. But one does need to take a little care. There are, I believe, some fairly unsavoury elements within the so-called rebels, and we need to be clear that they do not reach a point where they get rather careless in responding to the attacks on them and fall out with local civilians. It may be in that context, as the noble Lord, Lord West, pointed out, that the present terms of Security Council Resolution 1973 in particular will not be appropriate for that purpose. Therefore, maybe we should go back to the UN to get some additional authority if that is necessary. I emphasise at once that I am not for a moment suggesting that we should be authorising an incursion of land forces. Everybody agrees that that would be a bad thing and so do I. But a further UN authority that stops short of that may be desirable.

Sanctions will be an inevitable and, I dare say, essential part of the present process, including a prohibition on the supply of further arms. But sanctions have a habit of hitting the wrong people: they tend to be a rather blunt weapon in these circumstances. We should not attach too much reliance on them in bringing this matter to a conclusion.

The second objective will be the installation of an interim Government, the precursor of which is the departure of Gaddafi and his acolytes. I hope that that can be achieved as soon as may be. That will pave the way for the third and final objective, which must of course be an opportunity for the Libyans to choose for themselves who they have as their Government for the future. They need an opportunity to choose a Government in a free and fair manner. I think it was the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, who suggested that it might not be quite the democratic process that we enjoy and adopt here in London, but something that ensures that the people of Libya have a free and fair opportunity to choose who should govern them.

I yearn for the day when Libya can return to the community of nations in a responsible and civilised manner and I hope that day comes very soon.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Boyd of Duncansby]

My Lords, as Lord Advocate I prosecuted the Lockerbie trial. I mention that not to claim any great insight into the present situation in Libya. Nor do I claim that the focus of attention should be on that one horrific incident, although I can at least bear witness to the horror of one aspect of Gaddafi’s terrorism. The priority has to be the protecting of the civilian population, while ensuring a transition to a democratic state founded on the rule of law and respecting human rights. Thereafter, there are any number of criminal offences that should be addressed.

I mention Lockerbie because it has been central to our relations with Libya over the past two decades and more, and because the trial has some lessons for us in the pursuit of justice and the rule of law. Before I go any further, I say that I am speaking strictly for myself as it is four and a half years since I have been in the Crown Office and had any contact with any of the evidence. Megrahi was convicted of the murder of 270 people: 259 on Pan Am 103 and 11 on the ground in Lockerbie. Scottish terms of conviction and indictment also narrate certain factors which go along with the conviction. In this case, Megrahi was convicted while acting along with others, who were unnamed. Moussa Koussa’s defection to the United Kingdom and his connection to Lockerbie have been much commented on in the past 24 hours. From my knowledge, which I emphasise is elderly, he is a “person of interest”. I am pleased that the Prime Minister has acceded to the Crown Office’s request that prosecutors and police should have access to him. However, he is no more than that. No warrant has been issued for his arrest, and there are others who would also be of interest. That should be borne in mind, and I say no more on the matter.

The other aspect of the conviction was that Megrahi was acting in furtherance of the aims and objectives of the JSO, the Libyan intelligence services, so the court was satisfied of the culpability of the Libyan state for what happened, acting through the agency of its intelligence service. The conviction was important in bringing to justice one of the people who was responsible for that atrocity. The trial was innovative both in being in the Netherlands and in the adaptations that were made for that purpose. I pay particular tribute to the late, lamented Robin Cook, the Foreign Secretary who was particularly important to that, and to the Foreign Office, which set it up.

Thereafter, the road becomes somewhat trickier. I choose my words carefully: there were times, more than once, when I had the strong impression that Megrahi’s conviction was seen as an inconvenience and an impediment to developing relations with Libya.

I acknowledge that the rapprochement was significant and important because it led to the renunciation by Gaddafi of weapons of mass destruction. Other claims that were made for it, such as the provision of intelligence on al-Qaeda, I take with, frankly, a little more scepticism, particularly as Gaddafi is now claiming that virtually everyone who is involved in the rebellion is motivated by al-Qaeda. However, the negotiation of the prisoner transfer agreement, in the expectation—and, I suspect, the hope—that it would lead to the return of Megrahi to Libya, was an error of judgment. It was in the face of an agreement with the United States that, if convicted, he would remain in Scotland and serve his sentence there, and, importantly, of commitments that were given to American relatives—often through me, acting, as I believed at the time, on the advice of the Government of the day.

The announcement of the enhanced judicial co-operation, which included a commitment to the prisoner transfer agreement, at the same time—and I think in the same press release—as the contracts for BP, did nothing to dispel the impression that we were prepared to compromise on our principles of justice. This, along with the eventual return of Megrahi, undermined the confidence of the United States and of American relatives in our commitment to justice on this issue. One has only to have regard to the letter from Robert Mueller to the Justice Minister in Scotland, Kenny MacAskill, to understand the depth of anger that was provoked. I remind the House that if, and I stress “if”, there were to be any prospect of any new trial arising out of the Lockerbie incident, or possibly on other matters that need US co-operation, that co-operation has been put in difficulty as a result of what was done by the British and Scottish Governments. Relations between prosecutors remain good but between Governments they do not.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, might I ask the noble and learned Lord a question? He appears to have overlooked the view of the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission on this matter; it found the conviction unsafe.

[Lord Boyd of Duncansby]

It did not. It said that there may have been a miscarriage of justice and referred it back to the Appeal Court. Had the appeal gone forward, it would have been the Appeal Court that ruled on that. For myself, I think it was unfortunate that that appeal was withdrawn, since the matter was then not dealt with. However, there now seems to be at least an acceptance that Libya was responsible for the Lockerbie bombing.

At the end of the trial, Louis Freeh, the then director of the FBI, telephoned me. One of the messages that he wanted to give me was that it demonstrated to the world, particularly to the United States, that we can bring justice home to terrorists with patience and international co-operation, and that the US could learn that it did not need a military response. That lesson has been lost or obscured in the aftermath of 9/11, but it is even more relevant now.

We need to bring through a strong commitment to international justice. One of the most powerful of the speeches that I have listened to today was that of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, who outlined the reason for that. Through our present mission, we are promoting that international justice. I accept with limitations that we are doing the right thing and that it is legal, but we must go further.

What we have seen and witnessed in Libya is truly shocking: enforced disappearances, beatings, torture, horrific rapes and extrajudicial killings, as well as attacks on civilian populations. Holding people to account for these crimes is of vital importance, and part of that is ensuring that people are brought before the International Criminal Court or other courts as appropriate. It sends out a powerful message, not just to dictators and despots but also to those who chafe under such tyrannical regimes. If we are to build a world where human rights are universally respected, our commitment to those fundamental values must not be waived in the face of expediency.