Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Touhig and Lord Marland

Monday 10th December 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Marland]

I do not have a view because I do not have enough knowledge of the subject. As the noble Lord rightly said, he is quoting a small piece that I am unable to form an opinion on because I do not have enough evidence to support one view or another. However, I shall be happy to respond to the noble Lord on that issue. It is a perfectly reasonable question but it is too specific for me at the moment, I am afraid. I would need to take legal advice on it because I am not qualified in that area. I know that that is not a satisfactory answer but I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Touhig]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. I echo the point made by the Minister; this issue is supported across the House. We are all in the debt of Richard Shepherd MP, who pushed hard to secure this legislation. When I was dealing with it a year or so before, I was not successful, but I should like to put on record the huge support I had from one Iain Duncan Smith, who worked very hard with us to try to ensure that this legislation became law.

I understand some of the Government’s worries and concerns. We have had a useful meeting with the Minister—I have already thanked him for that—and his officials but, at the end of the day, the real prize would be a complete review of the Public Interest Disclosure Act. Aneurin Bevan once said that our principles remained constant but our policies, like tools, have to be reworked with each generation because they get worn out with use. We need to review and revise the Public Interest Disclosure Act.

I hope the Minister and his officials will feel able to continue the dialogue, not only with me but with other noble Lords and Public Concern at Work, because we can improve this legislation by the time we get to Report and Third Reading. With that hope and aspiration, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Marland]

My Lords, a lot of what has been said was said in relation to the previous amendments. I am struck by the remark of the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, about the Public Interest Disclosure Act being looked at again. I had probably better be careful what I say but if I blink it is in sympathy. That is not for this Bill or for this moment, but it is a valid point. I am grateful for everything that the noble Lord, Lord Low of Dalston, said as well.

As I said earlier, we are in a number of discussions with the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, and Public Concern at Work, within which we would be happy to embrace the noble Lord, Lord Wills. We are coming up with a form of words that is going through the ministerial process for approval at the moment. The form of words that we desire has been agreed, in principle, between the two groups but it needs ministerial sign-off. We will be going through that process before I can be clearer on that issue. On the subject of Dame Janet Smith’s report, we do not reject her findings at all. We believe that motive is a relevant issue and we are also working with Public Concern at Work on that.

Both these amendments are worthy of consideration and we are considering them, as we are the previous amendments. If I can slightly keep my powder dry for the moment, I am not able to give the Committee a concrete answer except that it is going through the appropriate channels to try and resolve the issue. In the next few weeks—before Christmas, I hope—I may be able to discuss with noble Lords the outcome and agree a way forward, which will help us by the time we get to Report. On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Touhig]

My Lords, again, I am grateful to colleagues who took part in the debate and in particular to the Minister for his response. It is the season of good will; I am sure that we may have some further good will before we reach Christmas itself but I have no doubts that there is a willingness on all sides to work together here to try to make better legislation. When I had a Private Member’s Bill, I certainly found that the more pre-legislative scrutiny we had the better Bills we made. The way that we are debating this, at the end of the day, better legislation will be coming out of it where whistleblowers are concerned. With those few remarks, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.