Prison Services: Insourcing

Debate between Lord Timpson and Lord Watts

Wednesday 5th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

The noble and learned Lord raises a really important question on how the performance differs between public and private sector prisons. It is something I have been interested in for a long time. I can show you some excellent private sector prisons and some excellent public sector prisons, and I think we need to learn from each other where we have areas of excellence and of poor performance. One thing I look out for is the quality of leadership in a prison. It does not matter whether it is a public sector prison or a private sector prison. I believe that too much of the performance of a prison is dependent on one leader, and that is the situation in both types of prison.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister says that the Prison Service has not got the capacity at the present time. Will he take between now and when the new contract is due to go out again to build capacity in the Prison Service, so that it can actually compete with the private sector?

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

The noble Lord will be well aware that we have lots of maintenance issues in our prisons, 25% of which are Victorian. In HMP Preston, the first governor was appointed in 1790, and in 1791 at HMP Lewes. Dealing with the maintenance on those is very complex and often requires a hybrid model, because we are dealing with lifts, fire systems and often very complicated things. In December last year, we published our 10-year capacity strategy, which aims to make sure we have enough prison places for the prisoners that we will hold.

Prison Maintenance: Insourcing

Debate between Lord Timpson and Lord Watts

Thursday 23rd January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her kind comments; it is nice that we have known each other for many years and discussed this topic. I like to think that I bring to this job my skills as a business leader, where commercial decisions are not always about price but about service as well.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, this is another Tory shambles: the Tories were very good at locking up people but very bad at maintaining our prisons and the number of prison officers. We have got people locked up who should not be locked up. Will part of the Minister’s review look at whether alternative methods could be used where they are more suitable than prison?

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for the question. He will be pleased to know that we are at 99.5% of the required level of prison officers. That does not mean that they are all in the right place or experienced, but that is one of my jobs to do. It is clear that there are a number of individuals in the criminal justice system whose chances of reoffending are higher by going to prison than others. That is why the Women’s Justice Board is looking specifically at this very important area.

Prisoners: Early Release Scheme

Debate between Lord Timpson and Lord Watts

Monday 21st October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for the question. Some 49% of prisoners have drug misuse problems. It is clear that those who go into prison drug free sometimes come out addicted to drugs. Drug-free wings and other NHS and support services are vital; they work—but they also need to work when people leave prison too. With the SDS40, we have had more time to plan these releases. While eight weeks is not perfect, it is far better than the previous early release scheme—so we are confident that these links are there and are working. One thing that I am confident of, having been around prisons for so long, is that, when you have prisons that are so full, it is difficult to make everything work as well as it should do.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that under the last Government, we saw the decimation of the Probation Service, putting the public at risk? How long does he think it will take to repair the damage done by the last Government?

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

The noble Lord is correct that probation is under a lot of pressure and our probation colleagues do an amazing job in these difficult situations. I have been fortunate to spend a lot of time since I have taken on this role visiting probation staff around the country, and although we are recruiting an extra 1,000 probation staff by March next year—that is on track and going well—it takes time to train people and for them to gain experience, because much of their role is about relationship building and understanding the challenges that offenders face.