Independent Sentencing Review

Debate between Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd and Lord Timpson

Monday 2nd June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

I cannot comment on individual cases, but it is up to the judiciary to decide what sentence they hand down to offenders.

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

My Lords, I too add to the welcome that has been given to David Gauke’s review and the Government’s response to it. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Baker, when he said, “Let us try to approach this in a non-political manner”, but I fear that is probably pie in the sky. I shall put it in a slightly different way: can we try to approach this by seeing what works? Do these long prison sentences work? My own view is that they do not. As important to these reforms will be making sure that the substitute, of people spending more time in the community, works. Here, money is critical. I very much hope that the Government will be prepared to submit their detailed costings for critical examination, because we cannot afford to get this wrong.

There are three areas that concern me. First, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, that in this electronic age, tagging should be efficient. I do not want to say much about the companies that have been used, but they have a fairly dubious history in some respects. Secondly, we ought to be very careful in how we deal with people who offend. When we tried this 20 years ago, that was the problem: if someone broke the conditions, we were too slow at doing anything about it; therefore, that needs funds. Thirdly, can we ensure that there is proper money for the Probation Service, and that that is examined critically? All of those are critical to the point that has been made—how do we have confidence in the community?

I remember going up north as a youngish judge and being told, when I advocated community sentence, “Young man,”—I was, I think, relatively young then— “we don’t believe in it up here”. We have to make them believe in it.

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

My approach to this job is exactly my approach to all my working life: follow the evidence and make sure you get some great people working with you who have a very clear idea of what needs to be achieved. That is my plan here. That is why, for example, Texas provides an interesting example; the evidence is clear, and I am delighted that we have taken it on board. The point within that is the incentives: what incentives does a prisoner have to do what we ask them to do? If they behave badly, they get time added on to their sentence, so it is a good example of following the evidence.

Sentencing Council Guidelines

Debate between Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd and Lord Timpson

Wednesday 2nd April 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for the question. There is no doubt that more must be done to address inequality in the justice system, and the Lord Chancellor has commissioned a full review of the sentencing disparity and its causes. We are clear, though, that this is a matter of policy, which is why we are legislating on this. I am glad that the Sentencing Council has decided to delay the guidelines until this legislation has passed.

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree, given the substantial achievements of the Sentencing Council, particularly in achieving consistency, that now is the time for quiet reflection in recognising that achievement?

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

I thank the noble and learned Lord for his wise words, and for recognising that we could all do with a quiet period. We are all looking forward to the Recess in 48 hours’ time.

Prison Capacity Strategy

Debate between Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd and Lord Timpson

Tuesday 17th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend. I am a big fan of the prisons in Northern Ireland—it is not because my wife is from Northern Ireland and I have been round the prisons many times. We can always learn from what they are doing. There is a prison there that noble Lords may not have heard of called HMP Hydebank Wood. It is a combination of a female prison and a young offender prison. It is one of the most impressive establishments I have seen—and I have seen lots of prisons over the years. I would be delighted to meet the Minister for Justice and to share ideas, as I would be with other colleagues as well.

The point my noble friend makes about the increasing size of the prison population in Northern Ireland is similar in theme to what is happening elsewhere. Even in Spain—I apologise for talking about Spain a lot; I just got back on Friday night—the prison population is also increasing. There will be similar themes around drugs, ageing population, mental health and purposeful activity. It is something we all need to be aware of, and it is a great way of exchanging ideas and learning things. As someone who has employed a number of people from prisons in Northern Ireland to work in the business that I used to be involved in, I know that there are many talented individuals there as well.

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

My Lords, a part of the criminal justice system’s problems is one word: money. That has been my experience for the past 20 or so years—seeing the justice system from the side of the judiciary and seeing it from here. I want to ask about money because it is the temptation of everyone to forget money. Build prisons, and how do you finance the result? As I understand it, the 14,000 additional prison places are going to cost between £9.4 billion and £10 billion—I assume, on current costs. The NAO report says that there is a £1.8 billion maintenance backlog, so there are huge sums of capital expenditure—assuming that the Treasury treats maintenance as capital expenditure, which it probably does not.

I want to know what it is going to cost every year to fund these 14,000 additional places, which, as the Minister has kindly pointed out, must be on the basis of rehabilitation—it must be much cheaper to lock people up and leave them in their cell for 23 hours, but that is bad. What is the realistic cost of these additional places, and if the Minister can help us, where is the money to come from? That is the terrible problem that we have never grappled with: value for money in relation to sentencing. I would be very grateful if the Minister could help on this.

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

I thank the noble and learned Lord for his detailed question. In the wider scheme of things, the best way to get value for money, as he says, is to reduce reoffending. Maybe in 15 or 20 years we will not need the prison places we have now because our reoffending will be much lower and the success of what I am trying to do in this job will be bringing results. One of the main areas of being sensible with money is not to lose cells, so we are making sure that our existing stock is maintained.

Noble Lords may remember that I mentioned HMP Preston. It first welcomed prisoners in 1798 and is still going strong. It has some elements that need a bit of work, but we also need to maintain them. The cost of building new cells in new prisons is £500,000 each. The cost of running them will be significant, because it is not just running buildings but staffing them and all the associated healthcare costs that go with it. Unfortunately, we do not have a choice to spend £10.1 billion at the moment—it was going to be a lot less than that—because we are in a position where we need to have spare capacity for the courts to do their job.

I am also looking forward to David Gauke’s review of sentencing to see the conclusions it comes to and the evidence it has looked at. A number of noble Lords will be feeding information into the sentencing review, which is due before 9 January. Running prisons is an expensive business. Reoffending, at £18 billion a year, is an incredible amount of money and waste. My job here, as a commercially minded person, is to look at why we are spending this money, and to challenge when we are spending what look like eye-watering amounts. I am challenging it, and I like to think I am starting to get some results.