European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Debate between Lord Teverson and Lord Bruce of Bennachie

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard continued) & Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard continued): House of Lords
Tuesday 14th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, the EU committee of which I am a member has spent a lot of time on Northern Ireland issues. Although I do not visit the Province regularly, I used to do business there and greatly enjoyed it; it is a fantastic part of the United Kingdom.

What really worries me goes back to what was said by the noble Lord, Lord McCrea: this denial by the Prime Minister that there is any problem here, when clearly there is. Yes, we have it in the protocol that the Province is to be part of the UK customs territory—but in reality it is part of the single market and the European customs union. It is de jure part of the UK and de facto part of the EU in terms of its economy.

The recent report by the EU committee stated:

“Notwithstanding the statement in Article 4 of the protocol that Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the UK, the practical implication of the protocol’s provisions on customs will be the introduction of a regulatory border for goods travelling from Great Britain to Northern Ireland. The introduction of such a border within the UK will have financial and political consequences”—


which is probably an understatement.

I was in the EU committee when the current Secretary of State for Brexit, Stephen Barclay, said, on the advice of his senior civil servants, that there would indeed be that border down the Irish Sea, and that there would be documentation; it would not be frictionless. So I find it very difficult to understand why we have this very trite statement, as always, by the Prime Minister, when that is not the case.

To emphasise what the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, said, I will quote what has been said today by the EU’s chief Brexit negotiator, Michel Barnier. He stated that the protocol on Northern Ireland outlined in the withdrawal agreement means that checks on goods moving from Great Britain to Northern Ireland would have to be in place. He said:

“The implementation of this agreement foresees checks and controls entering the island of Ireland. I look forward to constructive co-operation with the British authorities to ensure that all provisions are respected and made operational.”


We have not heard a great deal from the European Union on this issue. I suspect that it is very wary about entering the politics of Northern Ireland. But that silence has now broken, and it is very firm. So it would show respect to the Province if the Government could be honest about what is foreseen.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, I very much support the amendments moved by the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and I am very grateful for the detailed way in which he explained them. It could not be clearer; he covered pretty much every aspect. This has been reinforced by everybody else who has spoken. It is difficult to avoid the reality.

Let me first address the political dilemma. The Government have had an election, they have a majority of 80 and they can do what they wish in the House of Commons; we know that. The Minister has effectively got instructions that all amendments must be resisted. However, the Prime Minister’s personal reputation and integrity rest on this issue. He has explicitly said that there will be no checks—and in a sense, these amendments are trying to put into law the Prime Minister’s promise of what the protocol would mean. We all know the difficulty is that any analysis of the protocol does not square with the promise—unless the Prime Minister has got some way of explaining that which none of us has yet come across.

A useful analysis of the protocol has been produced by the Institute for Government, which makes it clear that the protocol means that while Northern Ireland will remain part of the customs territory of the UK, customs checks and controls will apply for goods moving from Great Britain to Northern Ireland because that ensures that customs checks or controls are not required between Northern Ireland and the Republic. That is the essence of the protocol in a nutshell.

The consequences of that, therefore, are that not only will there be checks but that exports into Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK will be subject both to customs checks and, potentially, tariffs. There is an argument that these tariffs could be reimbursable, but that immediately introduces a bureaucracy of having to regulate them, and apply, and when and how long that takes. So let us be honest; we are facing a dilemma.

As has been said, the Northern Ireland economy is one of small businesses and is vulnerable and fragile. For many of those businesses, the practicalities of dealing with this could be life-threatening and could effectively destroy their viability. Indeed, one begins to wonder how the pattern of trade might change, inasmuch as businesses in Northern Ireland may find that trading with the mainland of the UK is just too difficult; and, indeed, businesses on the mainland of the UK may decide that Northern Ireland is too much trouble. Somebody trying to order something online through Amazon may find that it does not supply Northern Ireland, or will only supply it at a premium, or will charge a tariff which may or may not be reimbursable. These are the kinds of complexities that we are facing and envisaging, and everybody who has spoken recognises that to be the case—and I think it is reasonable.

I do not envy the Minister’s position, but I would love him to have a conversation with the Prime Minister and say, “Prime Minister, you have categorically stated that there will be no checks or tariffs. It would be helpful if everybody else in the Government could have it explained to them how this is going to be achieved, because I have not come across anyone who yet knows how it can be done”. So the amendments are well-intentioned and constructive. They are about saying, “We have a promise and this is how it should be delivered.”

Given the Benches I am speaking from, I should make it clear that I accept that we are leaving the European Union at the end of January and that the Bill needs to be passed in good time and in good order. I certainly do not regard this as anything other than a genuine recognition of a crucial issue that needs to be addressed on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland. I do not have to repeat, but I will, that it has cross-party, business, and community support—literally, unanimity—across the entire Province that says, “Please help us through this dilemma.” I hope that the Government will recognise that they have an obligation to do so.

Perhaps I might raise one other slightly unrelated issue in relation to these clauses. The commitment to non-diminution of rights within the agreement is enshrined in Northern Ireland legislation—in other words, it applies to it—but there has been some concern, particularly in the debates we have already had about Henry VIII clauses and other clauses, that this does not apply to any other legislation passed by the United Kingdom Government. Does the Minister accept that if the UK Government can amend aspects of legislation in Northern Ireland—or, for that matter, elsewhere, but Northern Ireland in this context—the non-diminution of rights would be meaningless if UK law could compromise that and only Northern Ireland law is protected? I hope I have made myself clear and I would be interested to hear the Minister’s comments on that.

In conclusion, the Minister can be in no doubt about the feeling across the House. I have said, both publicly and privately to the Minister, that his engagement on these and all other issues is warmly admired and respected—there is no question about that. His commitment and sincerity in wanting to get the right results is not in doubt or in question, but he is defending a difficulty here on behalf of the Government.

He has between now and next week. It is probably a forlorn hope, but I think he should have a conversation with the usual channels and the Government to say that this issue is really causing a great deal of fractious difficulty and the Government need to show in very real terms that they are going to address it. If they could in some way or other accept these amendments or bring forward a government amendment that followed that through, a lot of mistrust might be evaporated and the situation might be regarded as one in which the Government have demonstrated a genuine determination to get to the right place, which is unfettered access.

Offshore Environmental Civil Sanctions Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord Teverson and Lord Bruce of Bennachie

Thursday 21st June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that explanatory introduction, and I have just a couple of points to raise with him. I welcome the purpose behind this change in the law, which I assume is to reduce the number of incidents. Has the regulator made an assessment of the impact it will have? The figures the Minister gave are for the number of breaches, most of which were not serious. However, those that were serious cause a little concern, and obviously the point that prosecutions are not effective under the present law has to make it a consideration as to whether civil sanctions will make a significant difference.

My second point is whether the criminal burden of proof will have a difficult impact in the sense that it is quite a high standard of proof, although that is right and proper given that these are new regulations. Nevertheless, is the regulator satisfied that it will be able not only to prosecute effectively but, more importantly, that it will be able to create a climate in which there will be a significant reduction in the number of incidents? That is really what I am seeking. Has there been any assessment by the regulator of that?

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, when I first read the regulations, I had a vision of a motorboat chugging up to an offshore oil rig and sticking a parking ticket on it with a fixed penalty fine, but obviously that will not be the situation.

One of the questions I was going to ask is about numbers. I thank the Minister for going through them. It is certainly very stark that we have two prosecutions for environmental offences out of 4,000. I guess that is one of the reasons that this measure is needed.

Paragraph 7.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum states:

“The need for the instrument has arisen due to a number of contraventions of environmental Regulations”—


the Minister has gone through those very well—

“going unpunished as a result of OPRED’s lack of a proportionate enforcement response”.

What resources does OPRED have? Is it an organisation with capacity? Is it underfunded at the moment? Is that part of the problem? Can it do enforcement in a quicker and cheaper way?

I want to expand on my noble friend Lord Bruce’s point. It rather surprised me that we were moving from criminal law to civil law but the burden of proof did not move to balance of probability; it stayed at the level of criminal proof—that is, beyond reasonable doubt.

Regulation 9(1) states:

“A person on whom a final notice is served may appeal to the Tribunal in relation to the decision to impose the fixed monetary penalty”.


That is fair enough. However, Regulation 9(2) states:

“In any appeal where the commission of an offence is an issue requiring determination, the relevant enforcement authority must prove that offence according to the same burden and standard of proof as in a criminal prosecution”.


If I were faced with a £48,000 fine, what would I do? I would just say, “Take me to court. Go through this criminal proof”. If that is getting in the way of prosecutions at the moment, the barrier is still there. There is a quick and easy way for justice to be avoided once again.

Going through the regulations, I looked at the fixed penalties. Although I realise that they are rather more draconian than going through a Cornish village at more than 30 mph, I wonder whether £500, £1,000—as for most of them—or the top limit of £2,500 would even be in the petty cash of the sort of organisations that we are talking about, which I assume are the potential offenders. Although I realise that the fines can go up to £50,000, I wonder whether organisations would even notice these fixed penalties, which are the cutting edge of these regulations. It seems that it will be part of the P&L line where you just pay your money to avoid environmental regulations.

I have a final question for the Minister. I assume that the answer will be no. I like the idea of immediate penalties in low-impact environmental impacts, so that the system is sped up and more enforcement takes place. Might this apply to any marine-based activities other than the hydrocarbons industry?

Scotland Act 2016 and Wales Act 2017 (Onshore Petroleum) (Consequential Amendments) Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord Teverson and Lord Bruce of Bennachie

Thursday 21st June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, of course I support the instrument, not least because, as the Minister said, it fulfils a pledge of the Silk and Smith commissions to transfer these powers to Scotland and Wales, but I have one question and a bit of context, because the transfer of these powers has generated a lot more heat than light in Scotland, where the Scottish Government claim that this gives them the power to ban fracking or any other form of onshore exploration, which the Court of Session says does not exist. In other words, the First Minister says that fracking is banned in Scotland, but the Court of Session says that it is not and is simply subject to normal planning considerations, so we are in a state of confusion, which is no responsibility of the Minister or the UK Government, having transferred that power.

This will become a significant issue only if there is a commercial desire to do significant onshore drilling or shale activity in Scotland, which Ineos has been preparing the ground for. It is entirely hypothetical, but it has been stated that if the future of Grangemouth, for example, depended on being able to extract shale oil that exists right underneath the plant, the issue would become politically more real, because you would be banning something that had a significant impact for Scotland, as opposed to current theological arguments about whether we should be doing that.

The only question I have for the Minister relevant to the regulations is on the section that says that everything is devolved except for the consideration—which is presumably the fee that might be involved. I completely understand that the administration and licensing of oil and gas energy is a reserved matter and therefore entirely for the UK Government, but I wonder, given the context that I have just outlined, whether adding to the pot the economic benefit of a licence—not only the commercial benefit but the revenue and royalties that might accrue to the Scottish Government—could change the tenor of the debate.

I have to make it clear that my party is not in favour of fracking and supports a ban. I personally do not agree with that; I think we should wait and look at the facts and the science rather than take a decision before it becomes a reality. Right now, it is purely theoretical; the whole thing is a power to do something that no one commercially is seeking to do and which the Scottish Government and public say that they do not want to happen. However, I can anticipate a situation in which reality will say that it is material and significant—that there are jobs and investment that matter—and the devolution of this power will become a problem, albeit one for Scottish politicians, not UK politicians. But I repeat what I said about transferring the consideration as well—not necessarily the licence, but the consideration. That would just be another factor that might realistically be put into the mix.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend has pretty well gone through everything that I might have said, except to say that from these Benches we fully support this extra act of devolution in an important area. It is about making sure that those in the energy field—in this area it is petroleum, but it can also be nuclear, renewables or whatever—such as energy developers and owners, put the environment or land back to what it was originally. Should be public need that, the Government or the devolved authorities are able to insist on a financial consideration. So we very much support these regulations.