Piracy

Lord Teverson Excerpts

Wednesday 24th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, first, I thank those noble Lords who have said kind words about the report of EU Sub-Committee C, which I am privileged to chair, Turning the Tide on Piracy. This is an important subject around which we feel there have been a number of success stories. It may be worth mentioning some of those. Apart from the reduction in the amount of piracy, it is often forgotten that Atalanta was primarily set up for two other reasons. One was to protect the World Food Programme in distributing very important emergency aid to Somalia and, in that instance, there have been no incidents at all of piracy being successful. The second is that it is an area in which Britain has been very successful in leading a European operation—Operation Atalanta is based out of Northwood and has been a very successful operation, headed by a British admiral, showing that Britain can be very successful within a European operation.

Thirdly, it is also an area in which international co-operation on the high seas has perhaps not been recognised enough. We have players here who do not often get involved in this type of operation—China, India and the Russian Federation, as well as NATO and the European Union. The fact is that these operations and these various nationalities have, after some initial caution, operated very successfully together—international co-operation not always reflected elsewhere, particularly, ironically, between the EU and NATO, where operational co-ordination has managed to work practically very well indeed.

There are a couple of other lessons that need to be learnt. One area that came to light when we undertook our inquiry around Somali piracy was what the Somalis themselves feel about these operations. I am not an expert in that area, but one thing that has to be taken into account is that one of the reasons that Atalanta was formed—part of its mission, long forgotten—was to protect fishing grounds from what are often European predator fleets taking out some of the economic ability of Somali coastal populations to make a living. That area has not been fulfilled by any of those international operations, as I understand it, and this is an area in which there has to be a balancing factor for the local population.

Another area which is a greater success now, but was not so when it started, is the inability not of the UK shipping industry but of much of the international shipping industry to take any notice at all of recommendations by Atalanta and other operations based in the Middle East to help merchant vessels avoid piracy. A lot of this was just ignored and most of the vessels that were taken captive and their crews held for ransom were those that ignored these rules. The sub-committee felt that the insurance industry in particular did not in any way help at that time to add greater caution and make sure that these guidelines were adhered to. I believe that that has got better, but I would be very interested to hear from my noble friend the Minister as to what further discussions there have been with insurers and merchant fleets to make sure that that discipline is much better than it was.

One thing we were very sure about was that without solving Somalia’s problems onshore, as soon as Atalanta and the other naval operations went away piracy would return to the levels that were there before. We welcome the EU initiative to have a much more holistic policy toward Somalia and the EUCAP Nestor operation, which is trying to build up the coastguard ability and the rule of law of those coastal areas, is important in that. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Luce, for bringing forward this debate; there are some really good lessons to be learned, but at the moment, as soon as those operations disappear, piracy will return.

Sudan and South Sudan: EUC Report

Lord Teverson Excerpts

Wednesday 17th October 2012 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Teverson]

That the Grand Committee takes note of the Report of the European Union Committee on The EU: Sudan and South Sudan—follow-up report (28th Report, Session 2010-12, HL Paper 280).

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, probably at the end of this debate I will not be able to raise the applause that the last debate did. It would be most inappropriate for the subject we are debating this afternoon. This is probably the shortest report ever produced by an EU Committee, but its purpose was specific: to maintain focus—not just within this House but well beyond it—on events going on in Sudan and South Sudan, following our original report published around the time of independence last year. I will give the Grand Committee some background to the issues; we have such an excellent level of contributions to this report that I hope everyone else will then be able to contribute.

Sudan has been much troubled. Since 1955, the year before independence, up to 2005, it was a period of almost continual unrest, except maybe in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Then in 2005, we had the comprehensive peace agreement, very much with the help of the United States, which was seen as a major breakthrough. That led to a referendum in January 2011, which was generally seen as successful in terms of the way it was carried out and its validity, which overwhelmingly called for the independence of South Sudan. On 9 July last year, both Presidents Omar al-Bashir and Salva Kiir were there to celebrate the independence of the first African state to be declared independent by consent. That was a tremendous achievement, not just for that continent, but for the people of both Sudans and the world community.

However, despite that comprehensive peace agreement, a large number of issues were still there: debt, citizenship, most of all the delineation of the border and the status of Abyei in particular, and the issue of oil revenues. As we are an EU sub-committee producing this report, there were a number of EU issues as well, such as the slow establishment of the mission there, but overall those problems internationally between Sudan and South Sudan were of great importance. Not just that—in South Sudan there was very little infrastructure. There were about 50 kilometres of tarmac road, hardly any social infrastructure, rebel forces within South Sudan, an overlarge Sudanese People’s Liberation Army and $11 billion of oil revenues unaccounted for post-2005, when the comprehensive peace agreement took place. That was some challenge and the comprehensive peace agreement was not so comprehensive by the time of independence.

Since that report and since independence, as members of the Grand Committee will know, the problems have been just as large: a huge refugee flow, going both ways, but particularly into South Sudan, has created a grave humanitarian crisis; Sudan’s bombing of South Sudan; and the occupation of the Heglig oil region by South Sudan; which hardly helped that situation and almost led to war around March and April this year. One of the things that stimulated us as a sub-Committee to look at this issue, was South Sudan’s decision to stop the flow of oil through Sudan, which was its only way of exporting oil to the Red Sea at that time. It meant a reduction of public revenues to the South Sudanese Government, who are not well endowed otherwise, of 98%.

In fact, when we circulated the draft report among the EU Committee, one of the members wrote back and said, “You have got this wrong because it says that South Sudan has stopped the oil, whereas clearly you mean it was Sudan”. Of course, it was not. It is like South Sudan having imposed oil sanctions upon itself. Whatever the reasons and however deep the injustice, the sub-committee felt very strongly that this was reckless behaviour by the new state towards its citizens. Of course, within Sudan itself there has been the ethnic cleansing and all the other violence that has taken place in Blue Nile and Southern Kordofan.

In September, there was some light at the end of the tunnel, perhaps, with the agreement made in Ethiopia and all the work that Ethiopia has undertaken in this area around oil and the demilitarisation of the border zone. Having said that, we are aware that it is very easy to turn off oil; it is much less easy to turn it back on again, and the oil in the Sudan region is particularly viscous and waxy, and getting that pipeline to work again is going to be a major issue. In fact, the International Energy Agency estimates that even in five years’ time, output will not be back to the levels that it was before the supply was cut off.

The EU is doing a number of things and we should not forget that some €285 million will be spent on the development budget since independence and up to 2013, and this month a CSDP mission is due to go into Juba airport to help with communications and that area of infrastructure.

Our report says that it is easy to go through all these difficult issues, but the comprehensive peace agreement is still not implemented. Although there has been a resolution, perhaps, on oil revenues and on the demilitarisation of the border, those border disputes are still not resolved and there is still infinite possibility of continued conflict between the two states, and all of history will tell us that it will continue. Clearly, the committee hopes that that will not be the case.

What the region very much needs is for the international community to stay involved. The African Union has played an important role, as has the United States, the United Kingdom and other member states of the European Union. This region must not be forgotten. The international community must help it to reconcile its difficulties. Apart from the important work of China, one thing that is absolutely clear to all of us is that for the foreseeable future the two Sudans need each other, and to live in peaceful coexistence. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. I am delighted to see here past members of the sub-committee, particularly those with a much broader experience and on-the-ground expertise in this area who have brought to this subject the passion that our own sub-committee feels is fundamentally important. I thank particularly those who have brought an optimistic note to the debate—particularly the noble Lords, Lord Jay and Lord Cameron, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kinnock—in regard to the future because, as has been said so often, we sometimes look upon Africa negatively when so much is going on across the whole continent.

I thank our clerk, Kathryn Colvin, for all the work she did. Finally, I thank my noble friend Lady Warsi for her response to the debate, for taking on this portfolio and for the enthusiasm that she has for the subject. We look forward to seeing her next week when we discuss EU defence issues, although perhaps that does not come into this area.

The rest of Westminster has given up tonight but we are still here. I commend this report to the Grand Committee and to the House.

Motion agreed.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Teverson Excerpts

Thursday 17th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, I have the great privilege of being the chair of the House’s European sub-committee on external affairs, on which I have been helped many times by the Chairman of Committees, who is in the Speaker’s place and whom I thank for his assistance over the past few years. Today I will go through some of the issues that the committee has felt strongly about and has reported on, and will ask the Government a number of questions on them.

South Sudan and Somalia are both in the Horn of Africa, which is one of the areas that we looked at and about which we have concerns. I will deal with the Horn of Africa first. We very much welcome the fact that our Government, together with the European Union, are bringing together a much more overarching strategy for the region—one that is not just based on naval forces against piracy but encompasses security sector reform, with personnel based in Uganda but for the benefit of Somali troops, as part of a much broader Horn of Africa strategy.

In particular we noted that in the past two weeks there was an incident where EU forces in the Indian Ocean, as part of Operation Atalanta, attacked onshore pirate facilities in Somalia. I am sure that I speak on behalf of my committee when I say that we welcome that bolder-than-usual step forward towards making sure that we stem the problem at the source rather than trying to solve it in the vast expanse of the Indian Ocean. It is a major step forward.

We were very iffy—if I may put it that way—about the civil arming of merchant ships, which is being introduced with government approval. There, perhaps, the committee will have to eat its words. If it is done with sufficient training and is successful, it will be another step forward that we will welcome.

A Question was asked earlier in the day in the House on South Sudan. It is a key issue. Matters have got worse. We thought that perhaps they could not get worse but they have. The committee is very aware that the problem is not just with the Sudanese Government; the South Sudanese Government, too, have been reckless in this area by cutting off oil revenues to the north and by their occupation, however provoked, of Sudanese oilfields for a temporary period—as well as all the other issues in South Sudan.

We wish South Sudan every success in its independence, but at the moment the situation is going the wrong way. We know that both the European Union and our Government are very concerned to make sure that the matter is resolved peacefully. Again we ask them to bring China constructively into the conversations, because China is the main market for both countries’ output of commodities, so that we can somehow resolve the issue without all-out war between the two nations. It is a very difficult topic, but if it goes wrong it will threaten much broader regional instability that will spread into Uganda and other parts of that area of Africa.

Another area that our committee is involved in is not directly European but covers the UK-French defence treaties that were agreed at the end of 2010. It is probably not known by the House generally that my committee, together with the Defence Committee of the other place, meets the Senate and the National Assembly every six months to track the progress of the treaties and to give a parliamentary overview on whether they are fulfilling their objectives. The overview was demanded more by the French Administration than by us, but was very much supported by the MoD as something that would help us in our negotiations. Of course, the Libyan war was an example of bringing together our forces. Instead of practice through exercises, there was close co-operation between our two armed forces during that time.

We are very keen that those defence treaties should continue to be successful. There has been much progress with them over the past year: they have been deepened. But I would be interested in the Government’s view on how the change in aircraft specification for our own aircraft carriers away from cats and traps will affect that interoperability and whether it will in any way sour the potential defence relationship. Has there been any initial indication from the new French president in the Elysée Palace as to whether he is equally dedicated to this very noble cause of two great European powers making sure that together they are able to exercise their military influence in times of budgetary difficulty?

I would like to bring up an area of personal interest as chair of the All-Party Group for Guinea-Bissau, which is a small ex-Portuguese colony in west Africa. It has been an independent state since the 1970s. It has all sorts of issues. I was due to go out as an election monitor for the second round of presidential elections last month. Unfortunately, those did not happen because of a military coup. My APPG was part of the monitoring of the first round of presidential elections. The tragedy was that that election was carried out perfectly—as well as any election in this country—yet the military did not approve of the likely result and intervened. I want publicly to thank the Foreign Office and the ambassador in that part of Africa, who is based in Senegal, who helped that election monitoring to work and be successful. I can do no more than endorse European and British sanctions now on Guinea-Bissau and on those individuals in the military until that situation is resolved.

I was going to talk about the European military situation and the NATO summit in Chicago coming up, but I do not have time. However, it is imperative that the EU and NATO work together for Europe's defence now that America is cutting its own budgets and looking towards the Pacific theatre. We have huge resources in Europe and we should use them better, which means that they should not cost us any more money to be effective.

European Parliament

Lord Teverson Excerpts

Monday 5th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I shall steer clear of the ageism aspect of the question. I see exactly what the noble Lord feels with his considerable experience in these matters, but what we have not yet resolved in relation to the great European Parliament is the remoteness worry. The trouble is that when you have great central institutions, accountable although they may be, they are inclined to be a bit remote and further away than our own parliamentary procedures or, indeed, local government. This is an age when people want to have contact—close relations, as the Laeken declaration said—with their representatives to make them accountable. There is still a problem that the European Parliament yet has to address about its remoteness from voters.

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, the European Parliament is a great institution, but will the cohort of MEPs who will arrive there in 2014, which my noble friend asked about, still be required to go to two locations, or can they just go to Brussels and greatly increase the reputation of the European Parliament by having only one seat and save the European budget some €200 million?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

It has been the view of Her Majesty’s Government under successive Governments that this is a very elaborate, expensive and out-of-date arrangement, but unfortunately there is one considerable and powerful country in the European Union that takes a very different view. Until it can be persuaded otherwise, I fear that this double-hatting and double-travelling will have to go on.

EU: Recent Developments

Lord Teverson Excerpts

Thursday 16th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Willoughby de Broke]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs. In his excellent speech, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Guildford talked about the earlier vision for Europe, and the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, mentioned his own vision for the future of Europe. Well, visions are all very well, but as what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Davidson, would call a “blinkered Europhobe”, I prefer to look at the facts. The plain fact now is that the southern states, what is referred to as the “Club Med”, have been badly failed by the political adventure of the EU and the euro. Nobody, not even the most ardent supporters of the euro—with due respect to the noble Lord, Lord Taverne—can really pretend that, so far, the euro has been a success. The Eurocentrists have had to fall back on the Merkel gambit to justify the pain it is causing to the poorer states. In one of her speeches, she said:

“Nobody should take for granted another 50 years of peace and prosperity in Europe … If the euro fails, Europe fails”.

The argument appears to be that if you are against the euro or the EU, you are in favour of war. But as the noble Lord, Lord Flight, said in his speech, by any objective measure the euro itself is stoking the fires of national antagonism.

I can well remember the triumphant fanfares when the euro was introduced in 1999. Those of us who predicted that it could never work were dismissed as swivel-eyed, foam-flecked Europhobes hopelessly out of touch with the reality of the new Europe. I just want to remind the House what my noble friend Lord Pearson said as long as 15 years ago in a debate on the European Communities (Amendment) Act, talking about European monetary union:

“Personally, I do not believe that that is a bird which will ever fly, but if it is pushed off the top of the cliff by ignorant politicians I fear that it will do much damage when it crashes to the ground … I believe that civil unrest will become a real probability”.—[Official Report, 31/1/97; col. 1332.]

That was 15 years ago, and who has been proved right? It is the foam-flecked ones who have been right and it is the “blinkered Europhiles” who have been comprehensively and spectacularly proved wrong.

The political imperative behind the euro is so strong that the Eurocrats will go to any lengths, as the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, said in his speech, to keep the political construct of the euro travelling along the road. But let us look at where this Europhile dogma has led us. Instead of the promised stability and prosperity, what do we have? We have riots in Greece, where the taramasalata has hit the fan badly; and we have demonstrations and riots in Italy, in Portugal and in Spain. Indeed, Spain has 50 per cent youth unemployment and 30 per cent total unemployment. That is the reality. Europe has turned into a weapon of mass economic destruction.

What is the remedy prescribed by the EU leeches? It is to take more blood in the form of more wage cuts, more unemployment, lower pensions. “Austerity macht frei” seems to be the remedy prescribed by the Germans, certainly to Greece and to the rest of the “Club Med” members of the eurozone when they are unable to meet the German requisites. They cannot, as one other speaker in the debate has said, turn themselves into Germans.

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, can I just say that I find that remark offensive because it likens German economic policy, however wrong we may agree it is, to a camp that practised genocide? I think that that is utterly inappropriate.

[Lord Willoughby de Broke]

I am sorry that the noble Lord takes it like that. The fact is that the German Finance Minister, Herr Schaeuble, is recommending more and more pain to be inflicted on Greece regardless of the fact that it is going to do the Greek population and Greece’s economy no good at all. That is what austerity is leading to. That is why I used that expression. He is saying that more austerity will bring you free—austerity macht frei. I repeat that.

As the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, asked, will it really be worse for the Greeks or any of the other countries afflicted by the euro to leave it? I agree that it is not going to be easy, but will it be any worse than the pain inflicted by 10, 15 or 20 years of austerity, low employment, no jobs and lower pensions? That cannot be a viable alternative in a democratic country.

Worse, almost, than the financial pain which the euro ideology is inflicting on Europe is the failure and erosion of democracy. Ireland, Portugal, Greece and even Italy are now wholly owned subsidiaries of the European Commission. When the European Commission says jump, all they can ask is, “How high?”. I remind your Lordships of what happened to the Greek Prime Minister when he threatened to ask his countrymen whether they wanted to submit to the harsh criteria of the bailout fund. He was immediately given a sharp lesson in Euro democracy and told that, if he had the referendum, he would be out. In fact, he was out anyway, and there was, of course, no referendum. It is ironic that what scared the pants off the bureaucracy was the prospect of a democratic vote in Greece, the country that gave the world democracy.

I do not really understand why our Government are spending quite so much political capital and time supporting what is going on in Europe now. Our membership of the EU costs us £18 billion a year; EU regulations and red tape are costing our businesses fortunes every single year. We have lost control of our immigration policy; we have lost control of our energy policy; and the emissions directives have forced us into enormously expensive wind and energy policies which are putting many people in this country into fuel poverty. On the evidence so far, if the EU is the answer, we have been asking the wrong question.

However, I want to end on a more positive note. The noble Lord, Lord Howell, said in his opening speech that he supported the Commonwealth. We should stop being quite so Eurocentric and look, as he said, at our interests in the Commonwealth and beyond. After all, we have many ties with it, both legal and financial. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, is not here, but I cannot resist reminding him of the words of Winston Churchill when he was challenged by De Gaulle. He said:

“If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea”.

The political construct of the EU is yesterday’s idea. The future lies with the growth economies of the Commonwealth, the USA, South America, China and the Pacific rim, not with the moribund, zero-growth EU.

I remind the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, whom I am pleased to see in his place, that the UN has 193 members. 166 of those are nation states that do not belong to the EU, yet they manage to trade perfectly well with each other and with members of the European Union without being stifled by the panoply of directives and regulations that emanate from the Commission.

To prosper in this world we do not need to belong to the EU club and its stifling rules. There is only one club in the world that we need to belong to—that is the world, and we are already a member.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, we have heard an excellent diversity of views around the Chamber. I will take up one point. On a number of occasions Greece was described as a victim. My noble friend Lord Dobbs, who is not in his place, used the term. It is worth remembering that Greece and its Governments—perhaps not its people, although the Governments were elected—are completely responsible for their fiscal condition. I absolutely agree that they should not have been allowed into the eurozone. Again, however, the Greek Government applied to join, and although the other eurozone states should take some responsibility for not refusing the application, it would be wrong to say that Greece is purely a victim. However, when it comes to dealing with Greece now, screwing it down further and further is not a solution. We need solidarity and we need to find a way forward, whether through a Marshall plan or otherwise, that does not breach the moral hazard of sovereign states and debts. I will come back to that theme later. Another thing I have found delightful in this debate is that so many of my Conservative coalition colleagues are Keynesians and are for growth as well as fiscal rectitude. I join them in that.

I want to follow up the point made by my noble friend Lord Risby, who made an excellent case for where the European Union has been successful. Indeed, I see it as the most successful multinational organisation, apart from Coca-Cola, that there has been since the Second World War and perhaps since well before that. It is far more decisive and has far more power than the United Nations. It has performed rather better than OPEC and has been able to fulfil its objectives. The African Union is nowhere near, and although NATO has been a very successful and important organisation, it has not been as able to fulfil its mission as the European Union. The European Union has done it largely through soft power, but it has generally managed to make things happen. There is a long waiting list from Iceland to Turkey with a lot of western Balkan countries in between. It is the largest single market in the world. It has a reserve currency. At the moment, 26 per cent, I think, of all international reserves are in the euro, while 4 per cent are in the UK pound and around 60 per cent are in the dollar. It has produced stability—military, democratic and market—across central Europe.

That success in Europe has been, and will increasingly be, more important because Europe is becoming relatively less important. We are all aware of the growth of China and the Asian economies. China passed Germany as well as Japan, I believe, in the past year. United States Secretary of Defense Panetta recently announced defence cuts including a reduction of 100,000 armed forces personnel and half a trillion dollars over the next 10 years. In that context, there is no way that the United States is going to take its eye off the ball in the Asian theatre so, whatever is said, that can only mean that its focus on Europe and European defence is going to become far less in future. Europe has to look to its own security and defence far more, whether as part of NATO or through the European Union. I believe it has to be through both. If it is through either, then both benefit.

This region has also become less important because it has less authority since the 2008 financial crisis which was in many ways seen as the end of western financial hegemony over the rest of the globe. The western model of finance and capitalism, as opposed to state capitalism or whatever, was brought into question. This watershed in 2008 was a great irony because, as this House will know, at that time the Lisbon treaty was ratified and came into force. At the time when we expected Europe to raise its game in terms of democratic accountability and, particularly, in terms of world presence, it was totally tripped up in global public opinion by three of its smallest economies: Ireland, although it is recovering well, Portugal and Greece, which accounts for 2 per cent of total EU GDP. The European Union, which contains three of the old G7 members, was completely unable to sort out its own economic future and to solve a problem that, to the rest of the world, seemed quite minute: debt issues in one of its 27 member states.

What happened after that? Angela Merkel went to China and started negotiating—as Europe still is—about whether China could help us out with our financial difficulties. This was summed up very well by Martin Wolf in the Financial Times on 31 January when he described the European Union as “stuck on life support”. As for Herman Van Rompuy, the President of the European Council, I do not even know where he is or what he has done. For someone who believes that Europe is critically important for the future, not just of our own region but of the world, this is a very difficult time indeed.

Where is the UK in this? As many other Members of this House have mentioned, we opted out—although perhaps saying that we have been opted out would be more accurate. Before that fateful night when we did not manage to do the deal with the other 26, I read a letter in the Evening Standard from a Back-Bencher from the other place, which said that the Prime Minister needed to call Angela Merkel’s bluff and that we should make sure to leverage all the benefits out of this crisis. Of course, the bluff that was called was our own, not Europe’s, and we are in the situation that we are.

Unfortunately, we continue to lecture but, I have to say, nothing like how we used to under the previous premiership, which was even worse. We continue to exercise all our discussions around red lines. Some of these are important, like the fact that the EU budget should not increase in real terms in the short term, but a lot of the others are far more minor, which makes the UK brand rather toxic and, I believe, demeans us.

We are at a turning point. It is quite clear to me that despite all the difficulties, the eurozone and the euro will survive. There will be increased membership of the eurozone, as a number are still queuing up to join, strange though that may be. As the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, said, we have a German leadership, but that is a bit like the Americans in Libya saying that they were driving from the back; we have Germany in the driving seat but without the leadership that a lot of the rest of Europe is asking for. Although there may be some resentment in the rest of Europe, I remember the Polish Foreign Minister actually demanding more leadership at this time from Germany, given its unique position.

Europe is a part of the world that must not be marginalised. We are far too important for that. Securing the future of the European Union is one way to prevent that. I do not believe that the fiscal pact is sufficient as a way forward. We have to find a way for growth and we have to persuade the other 26 in the European Union to modify that policy so that we can move forward in growth and not have the lost decade that was the fate of Japan.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I hesitate to rise in a debate that is not time-limited, but perhaps noble Lords will find it helpful if I advise the House that we are running slightly behind schedule, based on the guidance that my noble friend issued at the start of the debate, and that is bearing in mind that two noble Lords have scratched. Most noble Lords have been very diligent in keeping to the guidance, but I thought it would be useful for me to remind noble Lords that the guidance is for about nine minutes.

Hungary

Lord Teverson Excerpts

Monday 30th January 2012 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Teverson]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made to the Government of Hungary and to the European Union in regard to the introduction and extent of Hungary’s new constitution.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, my honourable friend the Minister for Europe, David Lidington, has spoken to both his Hungarian counterpart, Ms Eniko Gyori, and to Commission President Barroso’s chief of staff, Johannes Laitenberger, about recent developments in Hungary. Mr Lidington outlined the UK position that we support the upholding of EU laws and encourage constructive Hungarian engagement to address any concerns raised as a result of the Commission’s analysis of recent legislative changes.

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that encouraging reply. However, rather than just making technical changes to Hungarian legislation, as occurred when there was a problem with its media laws, can the European Union do something more substantial on these fundamental questions of democracy in Hungary to ensure that the principles of the European Union, and Hungary’s membership of it, are fortified rather than diluted?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I think that the intervention and the position taken by the Commission reflect some of that concern. As far as the UK is concerned, we urge the Hungarian authorities to be constructive and flexible and to honour their international obligations, as indeed we would urge any other fellow member of the European Union to do in similar circumstances.

Eurozone Agreement

Lord Teverson Excerpts

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The frank and sensible answer given by much higher authorities than me to the question, “Has the time come?” is, “We do not know”. As far as the situation of the Club Med countries is concerned—this applies in particular to Greece, which is having great difficulties in its debt restructuring—we hope that they will achieve it but we do not know, and we are not at all sure whether the necessary measures are in place to meet that short-term need. The broader issue of the fiscal stability union is aimed at the longer-term attempt to make sure that the eurozone is not constantly vulnerable to future crises. However, in the short term, if I told the noble Lord that I knew exactly what would happen, he would not believe me—and he would be right.

[Lord Teverson]

Does my noble friend agree that it is important in European economic and financial affairs, as it is in personal and social affairs, that one is seen not to snub one's friends, particularly when one might need their help in future?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I have to agree with that general proposition. As far as I am concerned, no snubbing went on. The UK sought to protect its interests and the integrity of the European Union treaty. We will continue to work both for our interests and for the stable and orderly development of EU economies generally. That will require a lot of co-operation but certainly will not require the UK, for instance, to join the eurozone, and no snubbing is involved in saying that we would rather stay out of it.

Bosnia and Herzegovina

Lord Teverson Excerpts

Monday 9th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That is certainly so. Obviously, the aspiration is there for the west Balkans to be part of the European Union in due course. Unfortunately, there are a number of very important conditions, and the noble Baroness is absolutely right to point to some of them. These immediate concerns that we are discussing need to be addressed; it is a question of consolidating the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina and preventing its breaking down into the old rivalries. Beyond that comes the prospect of the west Balkans joining the European Union, which we should certainly work for.

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, is not the inclusion of Macedonia one of the fundamental ways in which the movement of the western Balkans into the European Union needs to start? That country’s candidature has been agreed but those discussions have been blocked so far by the disagreement between Greece and Macedonia over a name. Surely that is one of the most important areas in which the integration of the western Balkans should start, and others can then follow.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The whole issue of the western Balkans and the particular issue that my noble friend has raised require very close attention. They are full of very difficult problems, which we must gradually seek to overcome. We cannot say that any one starting point is the right one for this process; we have to work on all these fronts.

Middle East and North Africa

Lord Teverson Excerpts

Tuesday 26th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord, with his usual precision and crystal-clear legal mind, has put the matter in a nutshell. This is the way that things will go. It is not just about the battlefield activities, the aerial activities, the advisory role and the provision of telecommunications equipment mentioned in the Statement. The international freezing of resources, assets and oil revenues, and the international pressure from every side on the existing Libyan regime, will also be part of the package of forces that will lead in the direction that the noble Lord so rightly described.

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, in repeating the Statement the Minister described the Libyan regime as illegitimate for the very strong reason of its treatment of its citizens. Given the violence in Syria that has been mentioned during this debate, do the Government take the same view of the Syrian Government and the presidency of Bashar al-Assad?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I refer back to my observation that each country is seeing a different pattern unfold. If my noble friend thinks about the Libyan pattern, to which he has just referred, it is a country with clearly organised opposition forces holding certain cities and territory against the organised force of a murderous regime, which still holds authority in Tripoli. That is one scene. In Syria, something else is unfolding—a very unpleasant pattern it is—in which the authorities are clearly acting in murderous ways and authorising their security forces to take part in actions that smash up human rights, destroy lives and create still rising tensions. It is not at the same point in the curve and is not the same pattern of development. There could come a time when the shape of things will change in Syria. There could come times when attitudes towards the Syrian authorities will evolve and grow increasingly determined to see changes in the pattern. It could come but you cannot compare like with like at the moment. These are different countries with different patterns of turmoil and political discontent, which all manifest in different ways. We in this country will use our tailored pressures with the EU, our American allies and our Arab and African allies to try to temper these great forces that are sweeping the Arab world, and see that they bring change—but change that is beneficial and not soaked in blood.

Libya

Lord Teverson Excerpts

Friday 1st April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, the military intervention in Libya was one of the most difficult areas on which to decide—whether it would be a good thing, a bad thing or where it would end, and many of those questions still have to be answered. However, naturally and understandably we look at the difficulties and obstacles that we created in Iraq and the lessons that we have to learn from that. I shall come back to one or two of those later.

When I had to make my own mind up, as one does on these issues, I looked not so much to Iraq but back to Bosnia and the instance when we had major conflict on the European continent to which, as Europe, we were unable to respond. We saw the carnage, bloodshed and, indeed, the genocide that took place within the former Yugoslavia during those terrible civil wars. That was when many of us said that Europe could never allow violence of that scale to take place in our own backyard again, and it made me resolute that the intervention in Libya was correct. That part of north Africa may not be part of the classic European continent but it is part of our backyard. Maybe unlike my noble friend, with whom I agree on many things, I believe that Europe has performed not too badly in a number of areas—I shall come to when it has not performed so well—but Europe introduced sanctions much wider than the UN sanction regime early on, and was united in that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, our colleague and high representative in Europe, was one of the first to draw attention to the need for Europe to react to greater democratisation and the various new movements in north Africa and the Middle East. Indeed, France and the United Kingdom were leading the political movements to make sure that practical action to help the anti-Gaddafi forces could take place, not necessarily within a European Union context, but before Benghazi fell. The United States, understandably because of its recent history in Iraq and Afghanistan, was very unwilling to take a lead—rightly, because it is our neighbourhood and not that of the United States. The European Union in its emergency Council meeting on 11 March stated categorically—all 27 member states in unanimity—that the Gaddafi regime could no longer act as an intermediary and had to go in terms of a Government of Libya. Those are the positive points in how the European Union reacted.

It is clear that the abstention by Germany in the Security Council was a major blow to European unity. If it was a part of trying to save regional elections in Baden-Württemberg, that clearly did not work. Perhaps even more ironically, although I welcome it, Germany then came back at the subsequent Council and welcomed the UN peace resolution.

What we have shown here—almost going back to the St Malo agreement at the beginning of the previous Government—is that for European defence to work, it has to work practically and has to work between the two nations which account for some 50 per cent of defence expenditure, ourselves and France. As the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, said, this situation was never in the coalition agreement. Ironically, I doubt that this situation was even in the minds of the two Governments when they signed the two UK-French defence treaties at the end of last year—a time that would have been much closer to this situation. The circumstances would have been around all sorts of defence co-operation—aircraft carriers and nuclear—but would never have been seen to be about something more practical that could take place in Libya.

My noble friend Lord Trimble also mentioned the EU’s potential further use of a mission in Libya. We were quite amazed to see—our eyebrows were rather raised—that this was not going to be a civilian mission but a military mission, EU for Libya. I stress that all that the Council decision perhaps today does is to move forward to a planning stage, rather than to decide that action should be taken, and that such action should be humanitarian. There is a huge potential contradiction or conflict in that the only reason military assistance from Europe would be required would be for humanitarian assistance, which I am sure we would all applaud, and that would be only if humanitarian aid cannot be delivered without military help. It will be delivered with military help only if there is likely to be conflict in terms of its delivery. I welcome the pre-planning that is taking place and that the lessons from Iraq have been learnt. In the pre-planning of such a mission—should it ever be used and it is not necessarily intended that it should—I urge the Government to look at those contradictions very carefully. If it takes place, it needs to be successful rather than a failure.

In my final minute, I come back to the broader issue of the area and Europe. One of the contradictions of the European Union is that its power, its soft power and its whole raison d’être in a practical sense, is around an economic bloc, and around trade and commercial relationships within itself and the rest of the world. That is where its power really lies. It is about doing business with whoever in the rest of the world wants to do business. Unlike other international organisations, the EU has a very high ethical content in terms of membership, the Copenhagen criteria, the rule of law, democracy, human rights and the rights of minorities, et cetera. It is extremely difficult to reconcile those two different arms to the rest of the world when it has to make decisions.

On neighbourhood policy in the south and in the eastern Mediterranean, it is important to remember that, while trade relations will always continue and the EU will continue to use its leverage there, clearly now it cannot offer membership to democracies and those countries in north Africa which we hope will meet the Copenhagen criteria. But it should be able to offer a much closer political, as well as economic, relationship to those countries, which is only available to those countries that have similar standards to those in Europe. That is the way in which I believe European neighbourhood policy needs to proceed in a practical and an ethical way.