European Union Bill

Lord Taverne Excerpts

Wednesday 25th May 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Taverne]

61: After Clause 21, insert the following new Clause—
“Duration of Part 1 and Schedule 1
Part 1 and Schedule 1 shall expire on the day on which the Parliament in which this Act is passed dissolves.”

[Lord Taverne]

My Lords, this is a probing amendment. At the end of the Committee stage it is time to see where we are and to review the overall effects of the Bill, which is highly relevant to my amendment for a sunset clause. The Bill is of course a compromise. In the election the Conservatives argued for the repatriation of powers from Brussels to the United Kingdom. This was always, in my view, an impossible promise, as well as a mistaken one, but it was in effect abandoned under the coalition agreement. The Liberal Democrats had to concede that any treaty amendment would require a referendum. The agreement also provided that passerelle changes would require primary legislation, which we all welcomed.

What has the compromise produced? At Second Reading and in the earlier stages of the Committee proceedings, some very powerful arguments were advanced that the detailed referendum requirements and the referendum lock would seriously damage our influence in Europe. In 56, or probably more, cases, the referendum trigger applies, and many of these triggers are minor. In many of these cases Britain would benefit from a change, yet the referendum lock will, in practice, make it impossible in negotiations for our representatives to support a proposed change, even if it benefits this country. If our partners favour a change, but our negotiators can do nothing but sit on their hands, it is likely that we will be bypassed under the enhanced co-operation procedure.

These arguments were advanced by Members of this House who, with great respect, have far more experience of proceedings and negotiations in Europe than members of the present Government. The noble Lords, Lord Kerr, Lord Hannay and Lord Williamson, on the Cross Benches, have unequalled knowledge of how negotiations in the European Union work. We have also heard contributions from four ex-commissioners; from the formidable noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe of Aberavon; the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, who has worked in the Commission; and from the noble Lords, Lord Deben and Lord Triesman, who both have experience of negotiating in Brussels—long experience in the case of the noble Lord, Lord Deben. Those who worry about the effect of the Bill on our influence in Europe present a formidable array of cross-party and non-party expertise and talent. I humbly suggest that the Government should take their worries very seriously.

In any case, it is a very odd Bill. In effect, many of the Government’s arguments have led to the conclusion that the Bill is not needed at all. First, major treaty changes under the ordinary procedure will be subject to referenda. The Government have made it clear that they will use their veto to oppose such changes, so there can be no referendum for any major treaty changes. Next, treaty changes under the simplified procedure will be subject to a referendum, unless they are announced by the Government to be insignificant—an announcement that is subject to challenge in the courts. These changes are also subject to our veto and the Government will veto them, as they have said. There can be no referendum for treaty changes under the simplified procedure.

Passerelle changes that are subject to veto are now to be subject to a referendum as well. Since the Government will veto any transfer of powers, there can be no referendum in this case. Clauses 2, 3 and 4 set out in detail how and when the referendum lock will apply. Schedule 6 provides a long list of decisions where we cannot give up our veto and change to qualified majority voting without a referendum. However, there will be no referendum since we do not intend to give up our veto. As the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, has said, this is a no-referendum Bill. In the words of Professor Vernon Bogdanor, it is also an Alice in Wonderland Bill.

We were assured by the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, in the course of his patient and eloquent defence of the Bill, that in any case no one else in Europe would want to transfer any major new powers to the European Union due to Lisbon fatigue, and because the European Union after Lisbon has all the powers that it would need in practice. If minor changes were envisaged they would be delayed and become part of a single passage that might be served up in many years’ time; although how such a package could be suitable for a yes or no answer in a referendum is not entirely clear.

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[Viscount Trenchard]

I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. Like him, I welcome the speech to be made by Mr Lidington. I do not wish the United Kingdom to be isolated in Europe—not for one minute. I believe that the Bill should help the United Kingdom to participate in decision-making in the European Union in matters where it is appropriate that we should do things together. It is necessary that we should make it clear where this country and this Parliament stand. We need this in order to define again the relationship of this country with the European Union. The people do not want to see more powers transferred to Brussels without their agreement.

[Lord Taverne]

Does the noble Viscount not see that if, as a result of the Bill and the difficulties placed on our negotiators, a procedure of enhanced co-operation was introduced for these regulations, it would not be to the City’s advantage?

Viscount Trenchard: My Lords, I have spent some time in Brussels, Paris and the Netherlands, talking to regulators. It is very important that we continue to engage, and that our national regulators continue to engage, with those regulators. However, it is not at all to the City’s advantage to duplicate regulation. It is not to this country’s advantage to duplicate diplomatic representation. We cannot afford to have two sets of regulators—one at the European level and one at the national level—doing the same thing.

We cannot afford two Foreign Offices. When I was in Tokyo for the first time, in the 1980s, I used to visit the office of the European Commission in Japan. It was the precursor to what is now to be called the EU embassy. What was there at that time already seemed fit for purpose; a large number of officials were doing their jobs. The other representatives of various countries used to gather in the office of the EC delegation, as it then was. Now I hear that the European Union, in pursuing the development of the European External Action Service, wishes to have ever larger embassies in major countries. This costs a huge amount of money. In Tokyo it will be very difficult because the British embassy already occupies number one, Ichiban-cho—that is, number one in the number one district. It faces the imperial palace across the moat. I am not sure where the European Union can establish its own embassy, if the only way it could be more grandly located would be to replace the Emperor himself.

On the sunset clause, I agree with my noble friend Lord Hamilton and others that, in the case of the Fixed-Term Parliaments Bill, there is a very good reason to have a sunset clause. Like him, I do not wish to see fixed-term Parliaments become a regular feature of our constitution. I do see that in these circumstances, where we have a coalition Government who have inherited a terrible fiscal situation, there are perfectly good reasons why this Parliament should be given a fair wind to continue for its full five years. However, I should be happy to see a sunset clause because that should not necessarily be the way for all time in the future.

In the case of this Bill, we cannot argue that the circumstances will be different from what they are now in three or five years’ time. What message does it send to the people if we enact a Bill, but say that it will cease to apply in three years, when we or a Minister of the Crown will decide whether to extend it? I see no logic whatever in attaching a sunset clause. Like my noble and learned friend Lord Howe, I believe that either it is a good Bill, in which case Parliament should pass it, or it is a bad Bill, in which case Parliament should not pass it. I would certainly vote against the amendments.

Baroness Garden of Frognal: There seems to be a general will in your Lordships’ House that we should complete this debate by 1.30 pm, rather than come back at 5 pm. Therefore, I suggest that noble Lords try to keep their comments brief and relevant to the sunset clauses.

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[Lord Taverne]

My Lords, a number of very important points have been made on both sides in this Bill. I would like to discuss many of them further, but we will return to this on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 61 withdrawn.