Elections Bill

Debate between Lord Stunell and Lord Khan of Burnley

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Report stage
Wednesday 6th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords, I simply want to declare an interest in that, if this amendment is passed, I should be a beneficiary of it. When I first stood, as the noble Lord referred to, it was possible to use your commonly used name. On that occasion, I appeared as Andrew Stunell but, subsequently, I have had many a tussle with electoral returning officers. Fortunately, it is not an issue in this place but, I have to say, it is a common-sense amendment. I very much hope that the noble Lord has had some quiet discussions with the Minister and we are about to get a positive surprise.

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, I will briefly address the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Hayward. There is an anomaly. The Welsh Senedd has made this clear and made important changes so I am sure that we can get this simple amendment accepted, in the spirit of the previous group. The Minister—I am glad to see him back in his place; I wish him the very best of health—accepted the previous amendments, so I am sure that it will be straightforward for him to accept these ones. I look forward to his response.

Building Safety Bill

Debate between Lord Stunell and Lord Khan of Burnley

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Report stage
Tuesday 29th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords, I have a couple of points that would perhaps have been better taken in Committee, but we did not have the amendments then, so I apologise for these rather Committee-related points. I refer to the government Amendments 18 and 19 about insurance requirements, which I am afraid are not very self-explanatory and, in the absence of explanatory text, rather impenetrable.

Amendment 18 rather boldly says, “Leave out Clause 47”. Clause 47 is one that requires there to be an insurance scheme for certain officials, as the Minister has just set out. That is in a context where, in Amendment 243, the Government have found the need to step in to provide a warranty scheme and make sure it really happens. In the building industry, many of those looking for professional indemnity insurance have found that in the first year after Grenfell their premiums went up by a factor of two, and in the most recent year their premiums have gone up by a factor of four.

Insurers are fleeing the market of providing professional indemnity insurance for anybody who has anything to do with the construction industry. So I wondered whether there was any evidence available, to the Minister or the department, that there was a functioning market in insurance products for those for whom this requirement is being changed. It was, as the Minister has just said, up to professionals in this new profession to seek out insurance, just as it was for professionals such as architects, surveyors or whoever it might be. In a situation where that insurance market is shrinking, and where the Government have found it necessary to talk about imposing a requirement in relation to housing warranties, how happy are they that such a market really exists, and that the abolition of Clause 47’s requirements actually make sense?

I am not proposing an amendment. I am simply seeking to establish that the Government do know exactly what they are doing, and also asking them to explain to this House and noble Lords what exactly they are intending to do.

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome these technical amendments, tabled by the Minister. While I will not unnecessarily detain the House by discussing each amendment, I would appreciate clarification on a small number of issues.

First, Amendment 17 provides the building safety regulator with a power to conduct inspections of building control bodies, thereby giving further oversight of building control bodies provision. Can the Minister explain what guidance will be given on the conduct of such inspections?

Secondly, Amendments 243, 244 and 265 will together mandate a warranty of 15 years minimum as a standard, while enabling the making of regulations for warranties to set a minimum period of liability for developers, minimum standards for the warranty, and a penalty regime for any developers failing to comply. On the warranty, can the Minister explain the rationale for 15 years? Can she elaborate on the Government’s plans for the penalty regime?

As I stated earlier, I welcome these technical amendments and look forward to clarification from the Minister.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords, briefly, we welcome the changes that the Minister has reported, particularly Amendments 257, 258 and 259, which will bring back to the affirmative procedure some of those matters which we raised in Committee. We appreciate that and we are very happy to support the Government’s amendments in that respect.

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome this final group of amendments relating to construction products. The Government are absolutely right to take steps to increase the recourse available to residents and responsible persons where construction or cladding products have led to residences becoming uninhabitable. Government

Amendment 246 is particularly welcome, as it provides for a new right of action where breach of regulations relating to construction projects leads to a building or dwelling becoming unfit for habitation. Every person and family deserves the right to live in a safe and habitable home. On this issue, I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify whether the Homes (Fitness for Human Habitation) Act already provides for similar guarantees.

I also particularly welcome Amendments 247 and 248, which intend to provide a right of action for a 30-year limitation period where historic defaults relating to cladding either cause or are a factor in a building or dwelling becoming unfit for habitation. I am sure that the whole House will agree that the passage of the Bill should represent a turning point for building safety in the UK, and I hope that these amendments will contribute to that.

Elections Bill

Debate between Lord Stunell and Lord Khan of Burnley

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Committee stage
Thursday 10th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords, I rise to support my noble friend and Amendment 18 and to thank the noble Lord, Lord Young, who, once again, trumps everybody by having been the Minister, which is a bit of a theme in the debates he has contributed to that I have heard. He is all the more welcome for that, and I hope that in due course his DNA may reappear on the ministerial file so he can complete the job.

I think the case has been made very clear. In fact, the noble Baroness from the Green Party, whose name has just evaporated—the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, I do beg her pardon—made the clear comparison between the fine a party might get from screwing up on its data protection and the fine it might get from screwing up on its election expenses. I think any ordinary member of the public, and indeed any rational Member of this House, would think that if one offence were worse than the other, the election offence is surely the more serious. I hope we shall hear that, subsequent to the new Minister picking up the file, he has been able to talk to the relevant officials who decide these things on his behalf and will be able to give us some idea that the Government will produce their own amendment on Report, or perhaps will assist the noble Lord, Lord Young, in tweaking his, so that it is at an acceptable level for his officials to approve.

I want to make the case that we and my noble friend Lord Rennard set out very clearly to make this proportionate to the fines and the impact that other regulators can have on the behaviour of the organisations they regulate. This may not be entirely in the best interests of those of us in this room, because it could be our political parties that end up paying significant amounts of money. That, of course, is the trouble, because whether the turkeys will vote for Christmas is always a difficult question to answer. Actually, it is an easy question to answer, but how do you overcome the natural reluctance there is to impose on ourselves the burdens that we willingly impose on other people when they offend regulatory standards?

I hope to hear something from the Minister. If he cannot come in at £500,000, could he at least, for goodness’ sake, come in at £50,000 and give those of us here who think this system urgently needs uprating some glimmer of hope that progress is being made?

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, I first say how much I am enjoying hearing the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, expressing his views in an unconstrained manner. I am also glad that he still has his DNA all over this folder, which means there are some valuable contributions.

The amendments in this group, which would have the effect of increasing the fines the Electoral Commission can apply, raise the question of how the commission can effectively deter non-compliance. This is an especially pertinent question given that the Bill removes its power to institute criminal proceedings.

In the past year alone, the commission has investigated close to 40 different parties, individuals and campaigners. Many of these investigations have led to fines. These include penalties totalling almost £18,000 to the Conservative Party for failing to deliver accurate quarterly donation reports and failing to keep accurate accounting records. In the most recent recording period, however, there seems to be no instance of the commission imposing the maximum fine. Can the Minister confirm how many instances there have been of the full £20,000 fine being applied?

The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, raises the possibility that the fine could equal a percentage of the total spend of the organisation—a point that the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, have raised in relation to bringing it in line with the fairness of other organisations, such as GDPR and the Information Commissioner’s Office. This is significant in relation to raising the possibility of the equal percentage of the total spend of the organisation, because a number of smaller parties have received fines that are as large as the main parties’ fines. I look forward to hearing the Minister address the concerns raised by noble Lords in this group in particular.

Building Safety Bill

Debate between Lord Stunell and Lord Khan of Burnley

Committee stage
Wednesday 2nd March 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, has raised an interesting theme which has been expanded on by the right reverend Prelate and the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, that of proportionality. I want to come at it from a slightly different angle. We have to decide whether something being a fire risk or not is an objective or a subjective decision. If we think it is an objective decision, and that it is possible by some process in a square box to say, “Yes, there is no doubt that this is a fire risk”, the view of a resident that it is not a fire risk is irrelevant, because it is a fire risk. Or we may think that there is scope for human judgment in that, and that the assessment of the resident—or, at least, of residents collectively in a block, if they decide that a particular level of risk is one they are prepared to accept—may have some bearing on the situation. Where does that objective judgment come from? I think that is at the heart of the question that the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, has brought to this discussion.

We know that there is a tremendous absence of qualified fire risk assessors. So my first question would be: was it a qualified fire risk assessor who made that judgment, or was it somebody who thought they were qualified but who actually was not? Therefore, if you are not quite sure—and we have all done it—in the current climate you obviously give a fail. What professional reputation you have depends on it. I put it to the Minister that this connects to the whole skills and training agenda, in that we do not have enough qualified people with the right skills to do the assessments on the basis of which those huge bills are then handed out.

I think that is really important. It is also important to consider what actual training we are talking about for these fire risk assessors. I presume that, apart from the necessary professional qualifications, they will also act to a code or a guidance note, or something that will be issued by the Secretary of State as part of the regulations that are otherwise in the Bill. That comes back to the question of what the basis is of the guidance that will be given to a fire risk assessor about these inevitably marginal and grey areas of what is and is not risky.

The Minister assured us some time ago that the EWS1 was no longer a factor in these things—but we know that not every insurance provider has come to the same decision. Therefore, it may still be the case that some insurance and mortgage providers will say, “I’m not going to provide you with the finance unless we see an EWS1, or something equivalent to it”. We go around in a circle here: the shortage of qualified people with proper guidance to make decisions in difficult and marginal cases means that less qualified people take the safety-first line, which is causing a lot of pain and work to be commissioned unnecessarily. In other words, we could safely afford to cut it finer if we had sufficient trained and qualified risk assessors acting with proper guidance provided by the Government.

I hope that we keep the level of risk as low as it is sensible to do. Secondly, I hope we invest a bit more time in making sure that, among the professionals making these decisions, there is a better common understanding of the phrase “what is sensible and proportionate to do”—of what that line is and where it gets drawn between a balcony that needs to be replaced and one that does not. There are some deep issues here that go far beyond whether leaseholders do not particularly like a decision about a set of balconies in one place or another.

I will just connect this to the situation in Salford, which the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, also brought to our attention. I believe my noble friend Lord Foster did so as well. A large number of residents of those blocks have had all their cladding—and therefore insulation—stripped off and are waiting for an outcome. There are some unintended outcomes lingering on from decisions taken on fire risk. I referred in our previous session to the fact that buildings have more ways of killing you than simply through fire. We need to make sure that, in eliminating one risk, we do not create others as deadly.

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall briefly speak to Amendment 115A in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Fox. It is good to see her put it in—I think she is becoming an expert on tabling amendments now. As other noble Lords have said, including the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans and the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, this is an issue that needs clarifying in relation to subjectivity, objectivity and proportionality. Just to quote the words of the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, this amendment, if accepted, would alleviate the marginal and grey areas.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, for her top tips on keeping warm—I shall print them out tonight and use them in future. I wanted to ask the Minister whether the Government have made an assessment of how many balconies pose a material risk and are in need of any remedial works. Is she aware of any new buildings with balconies that do not comply with fire safety regulations? I look forward to her response.

Building Safety Bill

Debate between Lord Stunell and Lord Khan of Burnley

Committee stage
Monday 28th February 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

The noble Baroness is certainly right that there are materials that have been used in one way, safely and successfully, for thousands of years, and others that are intrinsically safe, such as bricks—presuming they are made of clay rather than straw. I will not try to give the full range, because I think the Committee would get bored quite quickly and my pool of knowledge is quite shallow, but she has raised an important point: it is not just about having a product but about what you do with it. I am sure the High Court would want to put both components together before issuing any building liability orders, which seem to be the nuclear weapon that the Government believe they have in their hands.

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, I will speak to a number of amendments in this group. It has been a fascinating and exhaustive debate, even though there has been a mix of amendments.

I will start with Amendments 46 to 48, which are technical amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, who simplified and explained them in a very eloquent and clear manner—even using Latin at the start of his introduction. I hope the Minister got the gist of that message in Latin; I cannot repeat it, but I think it purported to say that, if he listens to the message and applies it, he will leave a wonderful legacy through this Bill.

At the heart of the argument from the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, was consultation. Many noble Lords in this Committee have, at different stages of our lives, undertaken consultation; its value is essential to what we are doing today. I am really concerned that, if there is a lack of consultation or an element of tokenism—if we do not get residents, tenants’ groups and leaseholders on board—it could lead to what we often refer to as post hoc rationalisation of predetermined decisions. We need to take people with us on that journey, as I have said previously, and ensure that they feel as close as possible to the decision-making we are undertaking in this Committee and in subsequent debates in this Bill’s journey.

Amendment 49 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, makes provision regarding the contravention of requests for further information. Similarly, Amendment 50 would allow regulations to make provision for penalties where a principal accountable person fails to set up a proper complaints procedure or fails to do so in reasonable time.

The noble Lord referenced Clauses 93 to 99, which are seen as unfavourable for leaseholders and residents. The noble Baroness, Lady Fox—who has, by the way, introduced amendments for the first time; I congratulate her on completing that process successfully—raised concerns about Clauses 97 and 99. She said that last resort access should not be the new normal and that we must be careful about entrance on minor issues in particular.

Building Safety Bill

Debate between Lord Stunell and Lord Khan of Burnley

Committee stage
Monday 21st February 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords, this amendment relates to the operation of the building advisory committee itself and of its constituent parts. Clauses 9 to 11 of the Bill put in place not just the building safety regulator but three components of it. One is the building advisory committee, the second is the committee on industry competence, and the third is the residents’ panel. All three will clearly exercise vital parts of the function of the building safety regulator, not just in relation to high-rise buildings—higher-risk buildings—but to the whole of the building stock of this country.

The Bill goes on to define what the functions and powers shall be of the various constituent parts. For instance, the committee on industry competence will establish and maintain a body

“with the competence of persons in the built environment industry … with the following functions”,

which are then listed,

“and any other function that the regulator considers appropriate”.

Those are the vital words saying that the committee on industry competence has a wide brief that can be widened further.

Clause 11, on the residents’ panel, says that the regulator will

“establish and maintain a committee with the functions mentioned in this section”,

which are all listed,

“and any other function that the regulator considers appropriate”.

The surprising thing about the building advisory committee, bearing in mind that what has triggered this whole Bill and the legislation that goes with it is all about buildings themselves, is that it has a much more limited brief. It has listed functions, but no capacity for any other function that the regulator considers appropriate. We are setting up in primary legislation a part of that body that cannot be modified as time goes on in the same way as the other two can be.

Therefore, this amendment would simply introduce the phrase

“and any other function that the regulator considers appropriate”

so that it applied to the building advisory committee as well as the other two parts. It will be fascinating to hear what the Minister believes is a good argument for the omission of those words in Clause 9—other than a drafting error—when compared with their use in Clauses 10 and 11.

Also in this group of amendments is the question of whether Clause 12 should stand part of the Bill. Clause 12 states that

“The Secretary of State may by regulations amend or repeal any of sections 9 to 11”,


which, in other words, is the three bodies underneath the building safety regulator: the building advisory committee, the committee on industry competence, and the residents’ panel. The Secretary of State may, by regulation, amend or repeal any of those, and

“The regulations may make consequential amendments of this Act.”


In other words, the Secretary of State will have the capacity to step in, independent of the primary legislation that sets this up, not just to change the functions of these bodies but to get rid of them completely. They could repeal any of Section 9 or delete it completely and then there would be no building advisory committee.

This is a detailed point but for me it comes to light because the building advisory committee takes the part of what used to be—and, for that matter, still is—the Building Regulations Advisory Committee. The new committee is the BAC; the previous one was the BRAC, and the interesting thing is that it was very nearly abolished in 2010. Ministers of the day did not know exactly what BRAC was or did but were very keen to get rid of extraneous organisations that they saw as being on the payroll and contributing to red tape.

As the Minister with responsibility for building regulations at that time, I had some idea of what the Building Regulations Advisory Committee did, which was to supply a great deal of free specialist advice to the department on the implications and likely consequences of regulatory change. When I discovered that its total budget was £20,000, of which something like £12,000 was actually a notional sum about the committee occupying space and having the very part-time use of the civil servants who serviced it, I resisted the abolition of BRAC. I am happy to report that it was not abolished. I would not say that it was either my greatest or only triumph as a Minister, but I can report that the Building Regulations Advisory Committee was rescued from ministerial interference at that point, by good fortune rather than good political management.

I should think the Government have subsequently been rather grateful that they did not abolish BRAC, because it has been a useful buffer between ministerial responsibility and the regulatory outcomes leading to Grenfell. Indeed, evidence has been given to the Grenfell inquiry about the role of BRAC leading up to the fire, and its role in the whole architecture of support to the department in its regulatory function.

I put it to the Committee that the building advisory committee is replacing the Building Regulations Advisory Committee, with the important difference that BRAC was statutory and could not be abolished by Ministers. The only reason why the debate came to light in 2010 was that there was a deregulation Bill and it was proposed, in a long list of bodies, to stick that committee in. So I ask the Minister: why are the Government restricting the committee’s scope? Why do they want the power to abolish it, behind the back of Parliament, when that committee’s predecessor was entrenched in statute and gave a great deal of good value, for no cost at all? This seems to be entirely against the grain, and indeed the reputational impact, of what we are trying to achieve with the Bill. I beg to move.

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, has eloquently outlined Amendment 7 and Clause 12 to the Grand Committee. I want to ask the Minister—the noble Baroness, Lady Scott—a few questions about the wider committees.

We on these Benches welcome the establishment of the three committees: the building advisory committee, the committee on industry competence and the residents’ panel committee. It is important to ask what the work of these committees is and how will it be funded. This is quite a broad question, so the Minister may wish to come back to me at some stage. Could she also provide details of how the committees will be staffed? How will the Government ensure that this committee will be independent from government?

The noble Lord, Lord Stunell, outlined the concerns. We on these Benches also emphasise that Amendment 7 is very simple—it would basically just add an extra line to be consistent with Clauses 10 and 11 relating to the other two committees. I am sure that the Minister could add those words regarding the building advisory committee.