Small-scale Radio Multiplex and Community Digital Radio Order 2019

Debate between Lord Storey and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Tuesday 23rd July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Storey (LD)]

My Lords, we welcome this SI, but the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, gets to the nub of the matter, and perhaps some of our concerns. The Minister will recall that I asked an Oral Question about local independent radio. As we have heard, some of the national companies—Global, for example—have been buying up local commercial radio stations and syndicating the programmes made in London, with an opportunity to break out for local news and weather. This means that the opportunities for people to be engaged at a local level in the radio industry are lost because the programmes are made in London, for example. Community radio gives us that opportunity to allow the local voice to be heard and for local people to be involved in making those programmes, not just speaking into the microphone but in the production of programmes, which is equally important.

We want reassurance on the issue of the 30% in six different companies. There could be a benefit—I shall speak against myself for a moment—where those commercial operators would provide resources for the community radio stations to give them the opportunity to develop. We could also see an opportunity if a big news story broke in a very localised community and the local community radio was there; it could be picked up and used on the larger independent commercial radio station in the area, or nationally for that matter. I can see advantages. I suppose we have to watch this very carefully.

The Minister might have answered this, but could he clarify again whether the order states that a local commercial radio station broadcasting on small-scale DAB will receive an automatic renewal of its analogue licence? Otherwise, we welcome this legislation.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, we too welcome the broad approach of the legislation. In so doing, I echo the points already made. Some very difficult questions have been raised by some of the issues the Minister referred to in his opening speech and picked up by the noble Lords, Lord Kirkhope and Lord Storey, but the central one, which I think we all got a fair amount of correspondence about, is how we provide for and support the community activity we are looking for from the digital radio service or services, and ensure the commercial pressures from those larger-scale operators do not squeeze out that initiative. I do not think we will be able to bottom this out in the debate today, but the SI goes some way to do so. Indeed, about four pages’ worth of restrictions and limits are being placed on ownership and various types of constructions that can be made for companies operating in this area, which will try to achieve that balance. We will have to see how that works in practice, but the issue has been well raised.

I will make two points about the broader context. I remember asking the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, when the Private Member’s Bill she supported went through the House what its implication might be for the broader context of digital radio in this country. We have been waiting for some time for some news about the digital switchover date. I am sure the Minister will have a note about that. Could we see whether this brings us a bit closer? Of the two criteria, I think that more than 50% of new cars being bought that had digital radios fitted as standard was reached three or four years ago, but we were also waiting for more than 50% of the listening public to be listening on digital services. I think the Minister said in his opening remarks that that is now well over 50%. The barriers to that appear to be disappearing, and if, as we are hearing, local radio is moving in swarms—even in Harrogate—to digital, why are we not hearing about the switchover date from the Government? Is this not the sort of “get up and go” we have been promised by the soon to become new Prime Minister, taking advantage of the new technology and driving it through for the greater benefit of Britain? I look forward to the Minister’s response.

Of the comments received, there are three small issues I want to leave with the Minister as questions. The question of coverage is to some extent included in the SI, but the broader question of whether all communities will benefit is not. Is there any intention behind the SI? If not, will the Government think about looking at this within a year or two’s time to make sure that all communities, certainly the ones beyond urban areas, are not left behind? True local radio provision has to be local for everybody. This is a step in the process of trying to get greater community radio coverage. I wondered whether there was anything in the thinking that would encourage the point made by Local Radio Group that some areas are still not covered.

The comments from the Community Media Association about making sure that we have a sufficient number of not-for-profit companies organised have already been mentioned. That raises the question of the Community Radio Fund, which is referred to in the Explanatory Memorandum. It has not been uplifted from its current level of £400,000, despite the fact that there are more community radio stations operating and possibly more to come. Does the Minister have any thoughts on how that fund might be moved forward and whether there are any prospects of that happening? It will certainly be an important floor for those wanting to operate these systems to have at least some public money available to get them started.

The third question concerns the impact this order will have on the local commercial radio services that are currently broadcasting, and the question of analogue licence renewal. He said that the extension was going to be made for a 20-year period, to ensure that those currently in it do not feel that they have to go through the process of resubmitting their bids for new licences. The point has been made, and I think we accept, that a balance has to be struck between those who are proposing these services and ensuring that they continue to exist, and not placing undue burdens. However, 20 years seems a long time. Given that this has already been extended once, what will the impact be on trying to drive competition in this area? Surely, if a number of people were interested in bidding for these licences, the opportunity to do so would be when they are advertised. If I am repeating correctly what the Minister said, we are again going to lose out again for another five years on that. Perhaps he will comment on that.

Higher Education and Research Bill

Debate between Lord Storey and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Ping Pong (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 27th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Storey (LD)]

My Lords, we agree on these Benches that as a result of the work that has been done we have a much better regulatory framework. Rigorous tests for degree-awarding powers are important. I was very much taken with the Minister’s comment that there should be no lowering of quality in protecting the value of university degrees. There are private providers, and the majority of private colleges do a fantastic job, but let us not kid ourselves: there are still some private colleges—and I would use the term “bogus colleges”—that with these new powers and regulations will not carry on letting down the quality of our university degrees and will not let down university students. It cannot be right, for example, that a student is enrolled to do a degree course that is validated by one of our universities but for which the only requirement is one GCSE. That cannot be right in our higher education system. These new powers will, as a result of what the Minister said, ensure that we can be proud of all our private providers.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I echo much of what has been said already, particularly by the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, who has been a stalwart in fighting this corner. We have supported her all the way on it and I am very glad that we have reached the point where I think we are all happy with where we have got to.

The main focus of the amendments that were laid in Committee and on Report, and those that have been now been presented in lieu by the Government, are about the ongoing arrangements in universities and higher-education providers in order to provide degree-level qualifications. The particularly narrow issue of what happens when an existing provider is taken over, whether by merger, purchase or otherwise, still needs a bit of care and concern, because there is fear within the sector that this might well become a feature, perhaps an unwelcome feature, of what we are doing. We are not against new institutions; we have always said that we will support those, but we want them to be proper institutions that are properly validated, with good procedures and processes in place. We would welcome that. However, where there may be a commercial imperative rather than an academic imperative to acquire a body, could the Minister comment on what he anticipates the arrangement will be should that merger or takeover be in play?

Technical and Further Education Bill

Debate between Lord Storey and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 1st March 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to appear in the Committee. I have been present on various occasions during the first two sittings, but I have not been able to find an issue on which I wanted to speak; therefore I come with my powder dry.

We have no argument of substance on this part of the Bill, because we understand what is happening. It is essentially a good housekeeping measure, rather than a threat to any existing or future institutions. It arises from two sources. First, there is a proper and appropriate sense of wanting to ensure that in any default situation, such as liquidation or insolvency, a process is in place and all the major players know what happens and how. It also comes from a wider consideration of how public services are procured and delivered.

In the good old days, as some might say—I say it in heavy quotes—public provision of such services as further education, but including utilities more generally, would always have the underlying assumption that the Government of the day would carry any debts incurred. Of course, that does not happen under privatisation—there is no particular reason why it should—but the responsibility for continuing work that is in the public interest still has to be resolved. That is why, over the past 25 to 30 years, there has been a growth in special regimes for insolvency. They are not unusual. They are broadly all of the same pattern. That is unsurprising as they come from one cutting shop: the Insolvency Service. They carry a common approach: they are instituted to ensure that, where it is appropriate and necessary, it is possible to intervene in the ordinary processes of insolvency or voluntary liquidation to the extent to which it is thought proper that the purposes for which the service exists are maintained, to ensure that those who are relying on it or have made it part of their lives in good faith are not let down by any cost-cutting arrangement.

Having said all that, we have tabled some probing amendments, to which I hope that we will get good responses on the record. Nothing will be unexpected—much of it came up in the other place—but we have learned a bit more about how the system operates, so there may be a slightly sharper focus.

I move Amendment 37 and speak to Amendments 38 and 39. This first group focuses on the education administrator, who is the person to be appointed by the court—the courts can act only on the request of the Secretary of State in England or Wales, depending on which territory they are in—and, if appointed, has responsibilities which will be set out both in the Bill and the broader range of insolvency legislation alluded to in the primary legislation; I expect that regulations to follow will fill in any gaps. We are not at variance with the Government in proposing that the system applies, although there will be things that we want to probe later.

The purpose of these three amendments, taken together, is on the question of whether we have got the right person to do this work. We have not seen many colleges go into liquidation or insolvency, which is a good thing. We were reassured in another place—so we do not expect it—that nothing in the Bill should be read as taken to imply that the Government have in mind a raft of closures. On the other hand it is fair to ask the Minister, when he comes to respond, to help us a little about what the context is for this.

The figures provided by the Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills in the other place were slightly obscure. He said that,

“80% of colleges are either good or outstanding”,


and that some,

“59% of institutions are in good financial health and 52% are operating with a surplus”.—[Official Report, Commons, 14/11/16; col. 80.]

One can of course read that the other way round: you could say that 48% are not operating with a surplus and that a situation may therefore arise which we are not fully apprised of. The Minister might wish to comment on that. I do not necessarily see that as an issue and, if he wishes to take time to write to us, we would be happy with that.

The context is also a little more complex, in the sense that we are well aware that there is a more general decline in further education. The ongoing work of the area reviews may or may not lead to closure as a result of mergers. Mergers cannot be imposed on the system but if the system wanted to do that and if a particular college was weaker, we may find this issue in front of us in a relatively short time. The procedures therefore obviously need to be right but, if the Minister could say a little more in that context about his perception from the centre of whether a number of closures will arise from the area reviews, that would obviously be interesting. We do not know of any and are aware that work is going on but some sense of that, if not the actual detailed numbers, would be helpful.

In the other place, the Minister was pressed a little about the context of what I have been saying. He came out with a nice rubric when he said that Part 2 of the Bill was,

“about protection, insurance, prudence and caution”.—[Official Report, Commons, Technical and Further Education Bill Committee, 29/11/16; col. 166.]

He was not picked up about that list of words. It does not quite have the ring of an aphorism about it but it is an interesting list. Would the Minister like to reflect on whether that is his reading of the situation? I take it slightly differently: I think this is a prudent, sensible and cautionary approach, as I do not see any red lights arising from it and gleaming in the dark that would cause us to have difficulty, and that the issues are appropriate. Those are the general questions.

On the questions raised by the amendments, Amendment 37 questions whether we are right in assuming that, at present, the Bill tends to focus the attention in relation to colleges and their continuation on a systemic approach. That was slightly picked up by the area reviews as well, in looking at the holistic approach to an area, although from the bottom up—in other words, from the locality—FE colleges are often seen as important bulwarks of local community activity. Particularly in rural areas and areas of lower density, they can provide a centre not just of education and training but for other activities, so there is a wider context for this. Amendment 37 asks that the education administration system, particularly the education administrator, should, in addition to the list in the Bill, take in the need to,

“minimise the risk to a local community of a long-term loss of technical and further education provision”.

That will be an important issue for many areas and I will be interested to see the response.

Amendment 38 would give more detail than is currently in the Bill about the consultations, discussions and debates that must take place before the education administrator takes forward the proposals that may come to it. We will obviously come to a wider view about this in the next group. This would include the “quality of education provided”, the capacity of other bodies or institutions and,

“the infrastructure of the local area”—

again, the reference is to local rather than national issues. An issue that came up strongly in discussions in the other place was of how students, many of whom will be relatively young, will function if they have to add a significant transport arrangement to their other education requirements. How exactly does that fit in with some of the overarching issues we will come on to, in relation to the balance between maintaining a provision in a place and the need to provide local services and community support in that area, as opposed to the needs of the students in terms of the qualifications they are trying to obtain, which might be better dealt with in another college, perhaps a couple of hours’ travel away? One can see the impact that would have in terms of community, and on the individual. A slightly more detailed list, as in Amendment 38, may be overprescriptive but the intention is to make sure that wider consideration than a simple binary question—open or shut—should face the education administrator.

Thirdly, on Amendment 39, the question is of who should be consulted. There is obviously an expectation, and comforting words were given in the other place when this issue was discussed. However, we have tabled an amendment that specifies that the students in particular—they are often omitted in these considerations —should be consulted, and that staff and recognised unions at the body concerned should also be included.

[Lord Storey (LD)]

Given that insolvency is a major part of the Bill, many of us were concerned that there might be something hidden that we did not appreciate or understand, which is perhaps unusual. I thank the civil servants. I hate that term. They are civil; they should not be servants. My noble friend Lady Garden and I met them yesterday to talk about insolvency, and I came away very reassured. Actually, I almost did an about-turn and felt that further education was protected in many respects.

The amendments are right. I do not foresee FE colleges becoming insolvent, because the new measures protect them in a more robust way than currently. During the area reviews, there has been a safety blanket. When they are finished and the new regime comes into place, it will be a much better landscape for FE to operate in. Having said that, in the 0.001% where something happens, it is right to point out that students need to be considered, as do the community and the staff. That is particularly so in rural areas. If a college goes in a rural area, the loss of it and its courses can be devastating to its students.

I will go along with it but I am never quite sure about “consultation”. Of course one can consult. If in the new landscape a college is on the road to insolvency, presumably we would pick that up pretty early on. It would not be a case of its suddenly being insolvent—“By the way, we’re closing down and we’d better consult students and staff”. We would see the process happening gradually. Any well-managed system would of course consult those bodies. When I see “consultation”, I always ask how we will consult. Is it a tick-box exercise, or a letter to everybody? When we have done the consultation what do we do with that information, or is it just, “It looks good so we’ll say it”? I understand the thought behind the amendment, however.

These amendments are okay. I am just beginning to understand the Government’s desire—I am pleased about it—that, under the new combined authorities regime, combined authorities will be involved in the adult education part of further education. I do not yet understand how that happens in practice as well as principle. I have been involved in a couple of emails about that, but I would like to understand it before Report. Having said that, I am happy with the amendments and I guess we will support them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I was hoping to have a short breather while we discussed other important matters, but unfortunately that has not happened. We move on to Amendment 47, which refers back to some of the issues that we have been dealing with regarding process, particularly what happens to assets. Clearly much of the work of the special administration scheme will be the ability to bring forward and, if necessary, sell—in other words, dispose of—assets that would otherwise not be there that could be used to repay the creditors, and I suppose might in part be used to maintain the operation of the college that is under liquidation.

To stand back a little from the issue, the interesting thing is that much of what we are trying to achieve in this special educational administration is more akin to the Chapter 11 processes in American bankruptcy law than to those here. We have the same basic elements: a court-driven procedure, the protection measure in place in order to make sure that the institution is kept as a going concern, and a commitment that is well expressed in terms of the special purposes of the education administrator to take it through. The question is whether or not that follows through all the way.

The amendment is probing, but it builds on one or two issues regarding which we want to get responses from the Minister on the record. In the first place, it would be helpful if we clarified that, as has been explained by the Ministers in their responses, this is unlikely to be a regular occurrence and will not be precipitated by the Bill, but it might happen and therefore we should walk through it and understand it. If we have a situation where a college is going insolvent, either the system can then operate on existing measures or the Secretary of State can apply for and obtain an order to establish the special administration, and then we are into the process that we have talked about at length and do not need to go back to.

However, it may arise that funds coming into the college to maintain it as a going concern are difficult to sustain. There may be changes in government policy or other changes in external funding that mean that it will not remain a going concern. So we are talking about maintaining the services and facilities for the students for as long as possible but in the certain knowledge that the institution is going to close down. At that point, I am sure it will be in the mind of the special administrator that some assets could be sold so that money could be obtained. Depending on the rules laid down for them, it would probably be rather difficult for that person not to engage with that possibility. However much we may wish to have the assets and the buildings maintained in case there is an uplift and the funds come back, the cruel reality of the situation will probably kick in and mean that the assets will be sold.

If the institution were a charity, as many of these bodies are, the question would not arise because, under charity law, charitable bodies holding assets are not allowed to dispose of them to third parties—in fact there is a prohibition that they must dispose of them to charities of similar nature and purpose so that the charitable purpose under which they were originally established may be maintained. I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm that that is the Government’s understanding of the issue. Where special systems or incorporation arrangements are in place, I assume that that will also apply, but charitable status is the main area here, so we are talking about a relatively small group of places where the natural process would be perhaps to squeeze the college down to a smaller area and get rid of buildings, equipment and so on.

The problem then arises that funding was almost certainly originally provided from local authorities but, since then, certainly from central government, so there is an investment issue about whether the funding that has been provided should not be better retained in the sector, even if it cannot be retained within the existing body as a going concern. So the amendment poses this question: in the relatively unlikely event of this happening where the college is not a charity, what happens to freeheld assets that could be disposed of where those assets were originally funded from the public purse? Is there not at least a moral obligation to ensure that they are retained within the sector? I beg to move.

[Lord Storey]

I have always been concerned when public money has been used to purchase a facility—let us say that it has been used to purchase an FE college and that FE college then sells off land, for example a playing field. That playing field may often have a dual use: perhaps the local community uses it for activities, for example, which is good for the FE college and for the local community. So when it sells it off, public money is being lost to that community.

As we said under the first group of amendments, the likelihood of insolvency is remote. With this amendment, I get the point that public money bought the facilities but, presumably, you could have local authorities—I have seen it quite often—saying, “We’ll have the facilities”, but then selling them off to the private sector to get that money in for other things for the community. Is that the point that the noble Lord is making?

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

No, it is not actually—although that is a scary prospect. In my scenario, we are in a liquidation situation in which decisions have been reached that the college is going to decline, because it cannot be made secure. It has been superseded by the court order now in the hands of the special administrator, and a decision has to be made about what happens to the residue. That may take time, but at the end of the day there will be a blank wall and the car will hit it. At that point, what happens to those assets? It is not that they could not be sold for benefit—the noble Lord’s point about land is absolutely right. I think it is pretty unlikely, but there could be land associated with FE colleges that, if sold, could realise development potential which could pay off all the creditors, and that could be seen to be a good thing. But if that money was originally provided for the education—not for a charity, because that is protected—what is the right way to go forward?

[Lord Storey]

In that case, there is merit in considering the amendment.

Higher Education and Research Bill

Debate between Lord Storey and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 23rd January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Storey (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his comments. I am speaking to Amendment 243 in this group. We welcome the government amendments. I agree very much that there needs to be clarity. There is a need to ensure that certain procedures within the Bill are applied fairly and proportionately and accommodate smaller providers of higher education such as further education colleges. It is also the case that the recently published BEIS post-16 skills plan includes proposals for colleges to make their own technical education awards, and it is important that there is joined-up thinking in this area. Unlike universities, colleges that offer foundation degrees are currently unable to provide both a foundation degree and a certificate of higher education to provide a flexible level 4 qualification option for students. The amendment would remedy this.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for introducing his raft of amendments. He is right that on the area we are talking about we meet in the middle. I am glad that his amendments, which outnumber ours by about 100 to one, were tabled, because what we had tabled would certainly not have been sufficient to achieve what he has outlined.

It is good that this is being done in pursuit of a vision of higher education provision that is inclusive rather than exclusive and which is open to many institutions to offer the various types of degrees and qualifications that they think is appropriate, with the aim, as picked up today in earlier amendments, that other modes of study, such as full-time and block release, are not excluded in any tally. With that will come the responsibility to ensure an effective credit accumulation system that allows those who have credits banked in the various styles and approaches that different institutions have to cash them in, as it were, against other higher education provision, to ensure that they arrive at a satisfactory conclusion with the degree that they have been studying for through this flexible route.

I have three worries that I wonder if the Minister could respond to in the short time available before we must break for the dinner business. Maybe this will mean that yet another letter will emerge from this process, and I have no objection to that. The first is that we have heard announcements today about various different types of institution that will focus on technology and technological achievement. These are to be welcomed, but it is not clear that provision has been made for that in the Bill. The Minister may not have been able to adapt the thinking announced today into the mode that would apply to the Bill, but I would be grateful if he could confirm whether or not it is the Government’s intention to try to bring forward anything that might be a consequence of the proposals made today. I agree that we are in a three-month consultation period but the Bill will last a lot longer, and there may not be another higher education or even further education Bill along in the next year or two. It would be a pity to miss the bus, as it were, on this occasion, so some clarification at least about the thinking would be helpful. We would certainly wish to work with the Minister if there were some suggestions about changing the framework here, although maybe he will be able to confirm that that is not the case.

Secondly, the question about who has what powers to do what is confusing. I want to assert what I think is the intention behind this term, and if the Minister is able to confirm it then so much the better. I also have a question embedded in this, which is where I will end. The intention of these amendments, as it was in our proposals as discussed in Amendments 242 and 256A, is twofold. First, it is to remove any doubt that institutions in the FE sector can apply the powers to grant taught and research degrees in addition to foundation degrees, as in the current system. Secondly, it is also to remove any doubt that institutions that are not in the FE sector, and which have been granted degree-awarding powers, can also award foundation degrees—in other words, institutions can provide the whole suite of qualifications.

However, it also seems to be the case that the Government are trying to say that only an institution in the FE sector can apply for the powers to award just foundation degrees, which seems perverse. If the Government accept my opening premise that we are trying to open up the system to make it more flexible, why is it only in the FE sector that you can find these foundation degrees? Is there something special about them that restricts Oxford University, Edinburgh or anyone else with the ambition and the wish to try to make as seamless a proposal for students wishing to enter university as possible to be prohibited from offering a foundation degree because they are not in the FE sector? That seems odd and slightly against what the Minister was saying as he introduced the amendment.

There seems to be a proposition buried in the amendments: that we are opening up everyone to offer the sort of courses that allow any student—full-time, part-time or mature, of any persuasion, type or arrangement—who wishes to come forward for degrees to be able to do so in the way that has the fewest institutional barriers. This particular restriction, that only FE providers can offer foundation degrees if that is all they want to offer, seems to go against that. I look forward to hearing from the Minister.

Children and Families Bill

Debate between Lord Storey and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Wednesday 20th November 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Storey]

My Lords, I am tempted to suggest that perhaps there ought to be some regulations regarding the times that we can perform, so that we know when we will start and finish and that we are being safeguarded correctly—but clearly that is not going to happen.

I went along to an all-party group looking at children and young performers in the media. I did not realise the problems that not only children face in terms of safeguarding. I am being told to shut up—you see, I cannot even perform.

I will make three very quick points. First, the legislation that was quite rightly introduced in the early 1960s was to protect children, but since then history has moved on. Times have moved on. Never mind a few television channels, we have hundreds of them. We are seeing the law being broken. There are television shows that are breaking the law. There are others that are playing by the outdated 1960s regulations. For example, a poor lad wins a talent competition, but because the witching hour has passed, he has to sit in the audience and cannot be part of the winning group.

I remind noble Lords of the three concepts that my noble friend Lady Benjamin spoke about: consistency, transparency and making sure that safeguarding happens. Currently, safeguarding does not happen. If we take only one thing from this rather truncated discussion, it should be that safeguarding children has to be not only about safeguarding them as individuals but about safeguarding their opportunities. It cannot be right that children in some local authorities are allowed to take part while in other local authorities they are not.

When the Minister replies—briefly, no doubt—I ask him to consider how we can make this happen, because we cannot have legislation trying to protect our young people that goes back to the early 1960s. I had lots more to say, but perhaps I can save that for another time—or, hopefully, not.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who contributed to this debate. It is a good topic and one which we have been happy to put our names to in order for it to have the best possible chance of being successful.

The noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, will not mind me saying that when I first came down as a raw and untutored-in-the-cinematic-arts person from Scotland, she was one of the first people I met. She wowed me then, and she wows me now. That performance—Floella, you were wonderful.

I am very pleased to be able to support this update of legislation that was last updated in 1963. Clearly, as we have heard, the world of television and film performance has been transformed since then. As noble Lords mentioned, it is important that the legislation properly reflects the full range of opportunities available to young people and at the same time builds in safeguards that will protect them from exploitation or physical or mental harm.

However, the chance to be involved in film and television work—indeed, this also applies to stage work—depends where you live, with local authorities operating rules in a very inconsistent way. There are also huge disparities in the amount of paperwork required. We need to update the legislation. It needs to widen the types of involvement suitable for child participants and to make sure that it covers the range, as has been mentioned, away from just simply acting and singing. What a wonderful world 1963 must have been if that was all you could do. I would not know. “Stop mucking about”.