Deregulation Bill
Lord Stoneham of Droxford Excerpts(10 years ago)
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Lord Trees (CB)
My Lords, I am all for getting rid of rules and regulations that have served no purpose and are redundant, but when we take a scythe to the deep undergrowth, we risk cutting down some very useful plants. I contend that that is happening here in reference to Part 6 of Schedule 20, which amends the Breeding of Dogs Act 1973 and the Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999. What the provision would do, as the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, has explained, is to remove a critical requirement for the licensed breeder to maintain records to a prescribed form with respect to the breeding of their bitches.
I contend that to remove this requirement is a retrograde step at this time. What we are talking about here is animal welfare and puppy farming. We are witnessing a huge, unprecedented growth in the commercial breeding of dogs purely for financial gain. In many cases, animals are kept under very inappropriate conditions. This is a matter of considerable concern to the public, to the animal welfare charities and to politicians. We had a debate on dog welfare in this House about a year ago, in which puppy farming was dealt with, and there was a debate in the other place on this issue as recently as early September.
We have laws in place to safeguard the animal welfare of breeding bitches: the aforesaid Acts of 1973 and 1999, which laid down limitations on the number of litters that a bitch can be allowed to produce per year and in a lifetime, the minimum age for breeding and so on. However, the Bill proposes to dismantle the very tools that will allow local authorities to ensure that those important laws, which we all agree that we still need, are being obeyed. So the current regulations are relevant and all that removing them will do is to provide meat and drink for unscrupulous dog breeders to exploit their breeding bitches.
As I mentioned, this matter was debated in another place on 4 September, when the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State’s attention was drawn to this issue. However, in summarising on that debate he made no reference to this problem but did reference the recommendations of the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health on the sorts of conditions which should be included in any regulations. It is made quite clear in the chartered institute’s guidance that maintaining complete and accurate records is regarded as essential. The current requirements are not onerous. There is a simple pro forma to fill in and you keep a record every time that the bitch breeds. To remove that will not see a surge in the gross domestic product of the United Kingdom, so why imperil animal welfare for no obvious purpose?
I suspect that the answer will be that these current requirements are redundant because it is proposed to bring in mandatory microchipping in 2016. I am totally in favour of mandatory microchipping but as was explained by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, the microchipping regulations do not cover the areas of concern that I am expressing. Microchipping is there to link a human being with a dog. I have looked at the draft regulations, which require no more than certain details of the owner and certain details about the dog—its colour, breed and so on. The microchipping regulations do not include any information about the sire or dam of the dog in question or, if it is a bitch, whether it has bred at all, how many litters it has had, when it has had those litters and so on, so they do not substitute for the requirements which it is proposed to abolish.
Removing the current requirement is opposed by the Advisory Council on the Welfare Issues of Dog Breeding, the Dogs Trust, the British Veterinary Association and indeed, by the Local Government Association. Removing the requirement will hardly benefit the economy and will certainly not benefit animal welfare, but it will benefit unscrupulous dog breeders in their attempts to exploit their dogs. I contend that the current regulations are relevant and not redundant. I ask the Minister to reconsider.
Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)
Given the noble Lord’s great knowledge on this issue, can he comment on the problem of dangerous dogs and interbreeding, and whether this will weaken our controls in that area?
Lord Trees
It might conceivably in the sense that breeders need to record the details of the sire as well as the bitch in the prescribed form. It could have an effect on the matter raised by the noble Lord. Clearly certain breeds are proscribed, so they would not—or should not—be used for breeding, and presumably would not be entered here. That may have some bearing on the matter. The primary concern is the exploitation of bitches in general and overbreeding because of the financial advantages.
Deregulation Bill
Lord Stoneham of Droxford Excerpts(10 years ago)
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Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)
My Lords, I am pleased to support the thinking behind the amendments proposed by the noble Lords, Lord McKenzie and Lord Best. In fact, I agree 100% particularly with what the noble Lord, Lord Best, was saying in the detail of what is now required in the social housing sector. It has been one of the frustrations of this Government to get the number of houses up. Indeed, as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, said, every Government have been frustrated with their idealistic objectives in this area. It is perhaps not surprising that after the huge damage of the recession in the housing and building sector it has been slow to respond, although many of us from an early stage have been saying that this was an even stronger argument for a more positive stimulus to social housing construction.
We are encouraged under this Government that it looks as though we will end up with a larger stock of social housing than we had before, but it is still not enough. The figures disappoint when set against the need and the potential to meet that need. We have to hold the Government to account on this, particularly as this is the fourth change in the right-to-buy policy in the last two years. It can be supported only if it ensures that we get a one-for-one replacement so, as one social house is sold, one replaces it. There are particular difficulties—as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, said—for housing associations dealing with preserved stock in terms of the money they then have to build new homes once somebody has exercised the right to buy. We will want some assurances from the Government on that. There is a danger in reducing the eligibility to three years to buy houses that people will increasingly see the need to get into social housing, not to meet necessarily their social need but to ensure they then end up buying a house at a discount. That is not the purpose of our social housing.
The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked the Government to reveal if they can—or at least say when the latest set of figures will be available to show—how many homes have been sold and how many new social homes have started. We have the figures for 2012 and 2013 and we are six months now from the end of the financial year. I hope the Minister will be able to provide some figures which will be encouraging to us and if not, will tell us when those figures will be available. I remind the Committee—and indeed remind the Government—that it has always been one of the objectives of the right-to-buy policy initiative under this Government that we build more houses to meet social need, and that is what we have to hold them to account for.
Lord Stoneham of Droxford
Before the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, responds, may I apologise to the Committee? I meant to declare my interest as chair of Housing & Care 21 but failed to do so. I would like to put that on the record.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply and the noble Lords, Lord Best and Lord Stoneham, for their contributions to this debate. I look forward to receiving the figures in due course from the Minister. I was not quite sure whether in his response he was saying that the Government are currently meeting their one-for-one guarantee. It would be helpful to know if that is the Government’s position.
Deregulation Bill
Lord Stoneham of Droxford Excerpts(10 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)
My Lords, my personal position is that we should not bother to amend this aspect of the Health and Safety etc. Act, but I also accept that, although there are arguments on both sides, the chasm of disagreement is not as great as either side might want us to think.
There are certain bêtes noires of our society which are blamed for most of our problems, whereas in reality the positive contributions of those organisations are often greater. One of those is the Health and Safety Executive. The perception of that organisation often gets in the way of reality. The health and safety legislation has assisted huge improvements, as indeed have better management practice and staff involvement to address poor work practice and productivity related to poor safety conditions.
The questioning of the working of the health and safety legislation and the European directives associated with it was probably to be expected from this Conservative-led Government, but Professor Löfstedt may have disappointed many when he said that no radical reform was needed and that the problem was less with regulations and more with the way in which they were interpreted and regulated. However, one feels that he had to say something to come up with a political proposal. He advocated that those self-employed whose work activities pose no threat to others should be excluded, which would help reduce the perception that health and safety is inappropriately applied.
The reality is that there is not much of a burden on the self-employed. That was proved in the Government’s consultation. If you do not believe the Health and Safety Executive, even the mighty Engineering Employers’ Federation, as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, told us, supports its view, stating:
“It is a myth to suggest that the self-employed are singled out by the regulatory authorities for inspection. This is not the case nor is there a record of prosecution against the self-employed, except in a few cases where their activities have or could have impacted others adversely”.
If such burdens were so great on the self-employed and on small businesses, how do we account for the huge growth in self-employment and business start-ups under this coalition Government?
There is a problem with excluding general categories of self-employed for whom health and safety is not a burden. You end up making the regulations more complicated and less simplified, which should be the objective of the legislation. The self-employed are going to have to know whether they are excluded. To many, this might mean that understanding the regulations will be even more difficult than it is now, and that we are going to have all sorts of categories, whether it is drivers, removal people, carpenters and all trades people, construction workers, bee-keepers and so on, excluded from this provision in the Deregulation Bill. The general view that this change is not worth the candle is one which I share, but if we are to have it—and I accept that we probably are—we must see the list of exemptions to reassure people that no real harm is going to be done.
Lord Deben (Con)
My Lords, I declare an interest as the chairman of a company that from time to time gives health and safety advice and as a former Minister for health and safety. I start from the assumption that there is something a bit peculiar about an outside body controlling the way that an individual shall disport himself in his own business—particularly if it is held in his home. That is not unreasonable. More and more people work at home. We are changing the law to make it impossible for people who rent accommodation to be told that they cannot work at home. There are many jobs that people do at home where, frankly, telling someone that they should not stand on an upturned waste-paper basket to get something down from a shelf is an intrusion.
That is my basis, so I do not come to this with any antagonism. There is truth in the feeling that the health and safety regulations have, whether because of their application or because of the perception, stopped a whole lot of activities which it would be better not to have stopped. I also know that many of those who are opposed to the European Union have used this as an excuse to bash the European Union when, of course, almost all of it is our domestic attitudes, and the European Union has adopted British attitudes towards health and safety. I often point out to people that the ease with which the European Union is blamed for things is one of the problems with people’s perception of that very important institution to which we belong and to which I trust that we will fight to ensure that we go on belonging.
However, there are some real problems here that have not been approached. Perhaps I may give some practical experience. Recently, I talked to someone who had been held responsible for an accident in premises which he owned and oversaw by a self-employed person who did something dangerous to himself, but not on his own property but on that of the person concerned. We have to face the odd issue that if we are not very careful, we will have circumstances in which the employee of a firm will be protected and the self-employed will find themselves protected or affected only when they are working somewhere else. Does that mean that a self-employed person who has no responsibility under the Act to protect himself nevertheless has a case against someone else for his own actions, because they happened to be on their premises? That may not seem to be a general activity, but it is a bit more general than some would like. That would bring no benefit to people’s approach to health and safety legislation.
I use that example not because it is the most important, but because it makes me wonder whether, in the speedy time in which the Bill has been discussed, we have thought through all the ramifications. Having been a Minister for health and safety, I have to say that it is a very complex area. Apart from the very real sense that people feel that we have overdone it in many concerns, let us also accept that it has had remarkable success in protecting people, sometimes from themselves.
That brings me to my second point. My noble friend raised the argument of whether, if you have sufficient people exempted from cover, those who are not covered will know whether they are exempted. In other words, there seems to be a real complication about how people get to know whether they should be there or not. That in itself is one of the things that will bring the Act into disrepute. People will say, “I don’t know if I am covered. Perhaps I had better find out—I had better get somebody to tell me”. Frankly, they will find themselves in precisely the position from which the Government are, absolutely rightly, trying to protect them. I have a real issue with the complications which inevitably come if we are dealing with this.
Deregulation Bill
Lord Stoneham of Droxford Excerpts(10 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)
My Lords, it is strange having a Second Reading debate when the principles of the Bill seem fairly straightforward and the argument will all be over the detail of the matters to be deregulated, which are more properly dealt with in Committee
The Liberal Democrats believe that regulation plays a vital legislative function and can be hugely important in protecting people, businesses and other interests, but we are critical of overcentralisation in our national Government and we certainly accept the need, particularly when recovering from a deep and damaging recession, to look critically at regulations to simplify and eliminate those which are over-complex and outdated. We know, too, that many of the jobs coming in the recovery are being created in the SME sector and among the self-employed. That is critical to future competitiveness, flexibility and creativity in our economy. We supported the Red Tape Challenge and the one-in, one-out system for new regulations and the extension to the one-in, two-out policy. We accept that free markets do not simply happen; we need regulation to ensure fair competition and free markets. Much has to be done to simplify and reduce regulation as standardisation is increasingly achieved in the EU.
The Government having focused on deregulation, the Bill is an inevitable consequence. We may argue in this House over some of the detail, but the direction and objectives we strongly share. There are a number of measures that we welcome and have strongly supported. One of the great successes of the coalition, building on the foundations left by the previous Government, has been the growth in apprenticeships, with more than 2 million created in five years at a time of strong economic adversity. The Bill seeks to put in place the new framework for delivering apprenticeships proposed by the Richard review. The review proposed a new, simplified structure of apprenticeships and funding to give employers a greater say in their structure and content. This new approved apprenticeship scheme means that apprenticeships will be delivered to a recognised standard, with the Government funding their part of the training aspects through HMRC. The Secretary of State will have the power to amend the apprenticeship standard agreed with employers. Flexible, more efficient and simpler administration will mean that authorities and employers can concentrate on updating apprenticeships and improving standards. We strongly support this measure.
I also support the efforts to help local communities run functions in their communities without undue regulation. It is obviously long overdue for us to look at the alcohol rules for these events. I give credit to the Minister in the Home Office, Norman Baker, who has helped to push through some of these reforms in the Bill. The sale of limited alcohol at community events is to be deregulated. The exhibition of films in community premises not requiring a licence, as it does currently, may be a small measure but is clearly long overdue. The deregulation will encourage community participation and, indeed, promote our creative industries.
We also support the whole complex deregulation on rights of way. I expect the devil is in the detail. I suspect more differences will be revealed as we go on. However, we clearly needed to ease the process of recognising public rights of way and dealing with registering historic rights of way, which now seems to have the support of the principal stakeholders. Therefore, we support deregulation in this area.
There are, however, some matters that will need attention when we get to the detail. Health and safety has already been mentioned. With the growth of self-employment, we need to make sure that the new provisions excluding the self-employed, except those in dangerous occupations, do not simply create greater complexity rather than give a general commitment to good health and safety practice. We need to look at the detail of this and be convinced by it. On the right to buy, there is no great principle at stake in reducing the qualifying period from five to three years, although I think we probably would have preferred to see how the current measures stand up over time. However, we do not want to see social-needs housing simply become a way of finding an incentive to home ownership. The objective of that housing should be to serve social needs. The key issue is whether we will use the proceeds from the social housing sold to add to the housing stock, rather than diminish the social housing stock as we have done over the past 30 years, except in the past couple of years of this Government.
On the licence fee, clauses provide for an appropriate review of penalties for non-payment. We accept that it is a review but we are not necessarily being committed to how that will be done in the future. Ideally, it should be done at the same time as the charter review. The key should be to look at how any new system can improve on the current low level of evasion and reduce the £111 million cost of collection. The BBC cannot stop people using its services without paying the licence fee, unlike its competitors, such as Sky. We should be aware that if the BBC reverts to the utilities’ record of dealing with bad debt, it will lose £200 million of revenue.
We welcome the Government’s commitment to reducing and simplifying unnecessary regulation. It is needed to improve the country’s competitive advantage and that should be a preoccupation of all elements of government and, indeed, the country as a whole, particularly in relation to small businesses, which often hold the burden of regulation. This is one small step to grasp the need for simpler legislation, which does not hold back the creative and dynamic aspects of small businesses. Small steps will help but we will need many more.
Ministerial Code
Lord Stoneham of Droxford Excerpts(11 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Wallace of Saltaire
It is perfectly possible for Parliament to have a view. Having read several recent reports by the Public Administration Committee and the Public Accounts Committee of the House of Commons, I can say that Parliament makes its views felt extremely actively and frequently.
Lord Stoneham of Droxford
May I ask my noble friend the Minister whether the Government are considering changes to the Ministerial Code in the light of the Leveson report, or whether they are putting their energies into achieving an agreed code of practice that would apply both to Ministers and the opposition Front Bench, in order to ensure the transparency of future relationships between all leading politicians and senior media executives, as recommended by Lord Justice Leveson?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the Ministerial Code now makes it clear that Ministers should report their meetings with all interested parties—which clearly includes those covered in this part of the Leveson report concerning media proprietors, newspaper editors and senior executives—so such meetings should be covered by the Ministerial Code.