Syria

Lord Stoddart of Swindon Excerpts

Monday 20th May 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

This is something with which the Foreign Office is acutely engaged. The concern, not only in relation to Syria but in the wider region, is that intra-community tension is becoming more apparent and support for that intra-community tension compounds that problem. It is a phenomenon of more recent years. On a personal level, my background makes me half Sunni and half Shia. As I was growing up, it was never considered to be that unusual as so many families came from that mixed background. Recent political events have brought certain differences into stark light. We see that not just in what happened in Iraq but in the wider region and also now coming to the fore in places like Pakistan. It is something that we are aware of and about which we are doing a huge amount of work, both on the ground and in strategic thinking at the Foreign Office.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

I shall be brief because I do not want to repeat the questions that have already been asked, particularly by the noble Lord, Lord Wood, who was perhaps moving a little away from the “me too-ism” that we have had from the Opposition in the past. Is there any movement on the part of this Government and the United States Government in relation to the position of Assad? As long as we and the United States say that we will not treat with Assad, the conflict within Syria is likely to continue for a very long time.

[Baroness Warsi]

It is not for us, the United States or anybody else to decide who should govern Syria; it is for the people of Syria to decide that. The national coalition, which is a broad coalition, is very clear that it does not feel that Assad can be part of the solution. Assad has slaughtered many of his own people and the consequent break-down of trust between those communities does not allow for Assad to play his part. However, if the Syrian people and the national coalition decided that he could play a part, it should be a matter for them, but it is not something that I can envisage in light of what is happening at the moment.

European Union: Recent Developments

Lord Stoddart of Swindon Excerpts

Monday 17th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

Am I going to get extra time for this?

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

I merely wish to correct the noble Lord. He pointed to me when he referred to UKIP. I am not a member of UKIP; I am Independent Labour.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

I do not know what the disagreement is between UKIP and the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart. Perhaps it is simply that the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, having been a member of the Labour Party, has misgivings about joining people of that ilk. However, I am talking about policy, and perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, could answer separately. I forgive him if he thinks—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

My Lords, this was supposed to be one debate, but of course it is three debates in one; three important debates, which should have been held separately. I will deal with each one of them seriatim.

First, I will say a few words about the accession of Croatia. I have nothing against Croatia at all. I am sure that, as has been described by a number of noble Lords, it is an excellent country. However, I do not want any further expansion of the European Union, and therefore Croatia is not welcome in the European Union. I say that because it is not clear where we are going.

Let us look at the list of countries, which I do not believe is exhaustive. How many more are to come in? In the line to come in—at some time or other—are Turkey, Ukraine, Serbia, Albania, Kosovo, Montenegro and Bosnia. Some of them have very high populations. The French, of course, are never satisfied. They want north African countries to come in as well.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

No.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

The noble Lord shakes his head, but the former President of France specifically said that he would like to see north African countries in the European Union. France, therefore, would like these countries to join the European Union.

If you have all these countries in the Union, what does it mean? If you take Turkey and Ukraine together, by the time they come in, that is about 140 million extra people. By the time we have finished with all of them there will be 700 million people. If experience is anything to go by, the larger the EU becomes, the more centralised and authoritarian it becomes. For those reasons, I am opposed to any further expansion.

Every entrant into the EU reduces the existing countries’ influence, including of course our own. We must also remember that the rules of the European Union mean that sometime or other after these countries join the European Union they have the right of entry into this country to work and settle. So there are difficult problems about building ever more countries into the European Union. I used to talk about a country called Europe. Now we seem to be talking about an empire called Europe. In the end, it will not do Europe any good.

The second point is about the Commission membership. I can hardly oppose what is proposed. When we were debating the Lisbon treaty, some of us, including the noble Lords, Lord Pearson and Lord Willoughby de Broke, said that it was right that every country should have its own Commissioner. But we were told that as Europe got larger, they could not have each have a Commissioner because it would be too difficult to run the whole thing with so many Commissioners. I can hardly be against that. I welcome the fact that the Irish are to have their own Commissioner and other countries as well.

Then we come to developments in the EU, which is the third part of this debate. Of course, there have been so many developments in the European Union since we last had a debate that it is difficult to sort them out. I have done my best. I start with the eurozone. It is still in acute financial trouble, as we have already heard. There are problems in most of the countries of the eurozone. We have heard that unemployment in Spain and Greece is more than 25%. There has been rioting in the streets. Teargas has been hurled at demonstrators and some of them have been injured by police violence. There is hatred among some of the countries, particularly between Greece and Germany. That is not supposed to happen in the European Union. We are all supposed to be jolly friends together. But what has happened in the eurozone is pushing the European Union apart. According to Eurostat on 3 December, 24.5% of EU citizens are at risk of poverty or social exclusion and that figure is increasing. What do those people who are in favour of expanding this organisation and keeping it going make of that?

When we went into the Common Market, we were promised that this was a great leap forward and that this was the organisation to be in. Britain would thrive and prosper inside it and so would every other country. Instead of that, the reverse is happening. Those of those who warned against ditching the pound and not adopting the euro were insulted by those, like Mr Blair, who led the campaign to ditch the pound. Mr Blair now thinks that people like myself are a virus because we happen to take a different point of view from him about the future of this country. He is the man who said before the 1997 election that he was a British patriot and then went on to sign the Lisbon treaty, got rid of many of our freedoms, and sacrificed part of our rebate. I had to say that because I resent having been insulted in that way by that particular person.

Then we have Frau Merkel telling us that outside Europe Union the United Kingdom will be alone. How insensitive can you get? I am of an age when I can remember being alone in 1940 and Frau Merkel seems to have forgotten about that. She also seems to have forgotten that there is a Commonwealth and Britain is part of that Commonwealth and one of its leaders. She was backed in all of that by Herr Schäuble, the German finance minister, who also believes that Britain could not exist outside the European Union.

Nearer to home, our own Prime Minister says he wishes to remain in the EU and once again he cites Norway to make his point. The United Kingdom has a population of 62 million. Norway has a population of 5 million. There is no comparison at all. Let us have a look at Norway. I mentioned some of Norway’s benefits in a previous debate. Let us look at Norway in other ways. It has the second highest GDP per capita in the world—in the world, not in the EU. It is the second wealthiest country in the world in monetary value and has the largest capital reserve per capita in the world.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, for giving way as I gave way a couple of times to him. Is he not aware, as it has been pointed out to him on more than one occasion, that oil and gas represent 22% of Norwegian GDP and 67% of Norwegian exports and that is the heart of the reason why Norway is so successful. Does he not accept that?

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

I understand all that. When I was a member of the Energy Select Committee in the House of Commons, we recommended that the then Government should do exactly the same as Norway. It is a pity they did not, because we would be very much better off now. That is the answer to the noble Lord. I understand all of these things. I have been around a long time.

The fact of the matter is that the Prime Minister says that Norway trades with the single market but has no say in the making of the rules and regulations.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

He is absolutely right.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

I am not at all sure that that is right. I had an Answer to a Question on 14 December, which is not long ago. The Question I asked was:

“To ask Her Majesty's Government, further to the Written Statement by Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint on 6 December (WS 76-7) on the European Union Foreign Affairs Council, whether the outcome of the negotiations with Japan, Canada, Singapore and Morocco will require those countries to adopt all the legislation and regulations that apply to countries in the single market”.

This is the Answer:

“It is not the case that as a result of these trade negotiations the countries concerned will have to adopt all the legislation and regulations that apply to EU member states.

The aim of these negotiations is to eliminate, as far as possible, duties applied to trade in goods and to address non-tariff barriers that affect trade in goods in services—ie rules, regulations and practices that affect market access”.—[Official Report, 14/12/12; col. WA 263]

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

What about Norway?

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

The noble Lord asks about Norway. I am talking about that country. If Norway accepts the regulations that it is up it. The point I am making—

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

It has to.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

No, that is exactly the point I am making. The Answer says that countries that trade with the single market do not have to accept all its regulations. It is here in black and white.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

With respect, that is not what the Answer says. Certain countries reached a certain deal with the European Union. By contrast, Norway has a very different arrangement and if the noble Lord were to look at the recent report by the professor who gave an audit of the Norwegian relationship with the European Union, he would see that the conclusion is very firmly that it is integration into the European Union without any form of representation.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, this speech is just approaching 15 minutes, which is considerably longer even than the opening speech. It is rather late and I would ask the noble Lord to be brief.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

I will just answer the question that was put. Of course I accept what the noble Lord says about Norway. However, that was something for Norway. I am saying that, if you do not want to and do not make an agreement, you do not have to accept every regulation and dictate of the European Union to trade with it. I will finish on that point because I got my 15 minutes.

European Council: December Meeting

Lord Stoddart of Swindon Excerpts

Monday 3rd December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

The question goes beyond the immediate Question but I am sure the noble Lord will agree that the Government have been deeply committed to making sure that those who should pay tax do pay tax. We have invested more in HMRC to make sure that those who should pay tax in this country do pay tax in this country.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

Should the Government not tell the European Union that they are in favour of a much looser arrangement between the countries of the European Union, and less centralisation? While the Prime Minister is over there, perhaps he could also have a word with the Prime Minister of Poland, who seems to imagine that the average cost of the EU budget paid by British people is only £35 a year, whereas it is actually £156.

[Baroness Warsi]

I will certainly feed that fact back in. I agree with the noble Lord about less centralisation. Of course we believe in power being nearest to those who are affected by those decisions. However, I think the noble Lord would agree with me that in relation to the European Union, we want a trade area but it is also important to be part of the group that makes the rules in relation to that trade area.

EU: United Kingdom

Lord Stoddart of Swindon Excerpts

Monday 26th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, the coalition Government are clear that we believe that the best interests of Britain’s economic future will be served by being a member and part of the European Union, but I would also say that even though I may not agree with some of the points made by noble Lords, it should be said that they are important points which further the debate. That is why I have said that I am more than happy to put the contrary view to the noble Lord, which I hope he will take up.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

Is it not odd that we should have a Question in this House asking whether the Government will hold discussions with the Government of Germany regarding the role of the United Kingdom in the European Union? I would have thought it would be very much better if the Government had a discussion with the voters of this country and let them say what they would prefer the future of Britain to be, either in or out of the European Union.

European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [HL]

Lord Stoddart of Swindon Excerpts

Wednesday 4th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

My Lords, I am sorry to intrude further on the time of the House. I shall be brief. I took part in proceedings on the Bill, speaking at Second Reading, in Committee and on Report. The matters raised by the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, today go far beyond what is contained in the Bill. I should very much like to answer the points that he made but, in deference to the next Bill and the time of the House, I will not do so.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, I am rather in the same state of mind as the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, on these matters. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, for his first words confirming the support of Her Majesty’s Opposition for this Bill, although his later remarks, while interesting, seem to be spectacularly out of order; but never mind about that.

In his intervention, the noble Lord, Lord Owen, raised extremely important and wider issues, which I think all in this House would wish to discuss at the appropriate time. However, this Bill is simply concerned with approval to amend Article 136 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, and it would be inappropriate, perhaps even out of order, for me to stray into a debate on these matters now.

I would emphasise to the noble Lord, Lord Owen, that, as I think he knows, I would be very happy to discuss his ideas on the future of the European Union, the eurozone and the single market—as, if I may say so, set out in his recent book on this subject, which is full of very interesting ideas—and I hope that we will have the opportunity to do that. If he would like to put down a Question, it will be possible to answer in even more detail the specific points that he has raised today. I think that that is the best way forward. However, as there are no amendments to this Bill on Third Reading —although amendments were excellently advanced earlier with great precision by a certain Member of this House—there will be no further amendments. I beg to move that the Bill do now pass.

European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [HL]

Lord Stoddart of Swindon Excerpts

Wednesday 13th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy]

Strathclyde council has a better record of administration than the European Union. I assure my noble friend that it is one of the best administrative councils in the history of Europe as well as being one of the biggest. I declare an interest as a former member of that council although I was not involved in its financial affairs.

In short, there is a certain amount of arrogance—I do not mean this in a hostile way—on the part of pro-European Union people as regards further encroachment on the British way of life and the concept that the intellectual giants are the people who have thought out everything to do with the European Union and its encroachments. That is not the case and those people do not represent the views of the British people. The view of the British people is best represented by those who say, “This far and no further”. Although I do not support the call for a referendum, it is useful for this House to hear a dissident voice on this side of the Chamber. We certainly should be very careful as regards further encroachment.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

My Lords, I must confess that when I saw these amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, I thought that we had a convert. However, my hopes were dashed by his speech this afternoon. It appears that he tabled these amendments as it enabled him to make the speech—it is a very nice way of doing it—that he could not make when we debated this matter on Second Reading. He has a point. The implications of this Bill are much further ranging than has been related to the House. I shall quote from the Times on 11 May this year, which will support the case—or non-case—that the noble Lord made:

“There are two issues with this EU treaty change that could cause big problems: first, it allows the eurozone to integrate further with consequences for UK interests; second, the quid pro quo guarantee that the UK won’t be forced to contribute to euro bailouts in future may not be legally binding”.

So there is some support in that article for the view that perhaps this Bill is much more important and far-ranging than some of us had believed. I and other people considered whether this Bill could be amended and I came to the conclusion that it was best left to the House of Commons. However, we have an amendment here which I believe should be supported. The Bill is very important indeed, particularly in the light of what is happening at present. The problems of the eurozone and the European Union itself are leading to demands for further integration. Even today, the President of the European Commission, Mr Barroso, is outlining plans to the European Parliament for a European banking union, which would affect not only the eurozone but the whole of the European Union.

Angela Merkel, for example, believes that the answer to the problem is not less but more Europe, politically, financially and economically. This Bill facilitates what these people are thinking. The Bill is much more important than we previously believed and the House should be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. I should really describe him as my noble friend, because we have been around a long time and embarked on many debates. Usually, we have been on the same side. Paradoxically, according to the wording of the amendment we are still on the same side, but perhaps if he puts it to a vote we shall be in opposite Lobbies. We shall see. In the mean time, if he puts it to the vote, I shall support him.

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords, I had better explain briefly the opposition Front Bench position on this amendment and some of the speeches we have heard. It was a great pity that my noble friend Lord Foulkes could not make Second Reading, because he would have made a strong pro-European speech in that debate. He was right that my noble friend Lord Radice made an excellent speech as well. However, from our perspective I do not think that we can support the thrust of his amendment. I see the logic of his position. In the European Union Act, which we debated over many hours last year, we got ourselves in a situation where, if it was decided to establish a European office of paperclips, we would have to have a referendum on it, because it would involve a transfer of sovereignty to Brussels.

For our part, we believe that referenda should take place only on issues of major constitutional significance, as the Lords Constitution Committee recommended, and that we should be consistent with that principle. As far as the Labour position in the Commons is concerned—and I say this with some trepidation because my dear noble friend Lord McAvoy has a great record as a party loyalist and defender of party discipline in the other place—the shadow Foreign Secretary, Douglas Alexander, in the Commons debate last autumn on the question of a referendum, said:

“I urge opposition to the motion because I do not believe that Britain’s national interest would be served by spending the coming months and years debating the case for Britain leaving the world’s largest single market”.—[Official Report, Commons, 24/10/11; col. 60.]

The leader of the Labour Party made it clear only last week or the week before that Labour’s position had not changed from that view in the mean time.

That is where we stand. The EU Act is a contradictory piece of legislation. The measure is not defined under the terms of that Act as a transfer of powers to Brussels, and we therefore do not have a referendum—but there is no point in reiterating our debates on that Act. Our view is that this is an emergency situation in Europe; the stability mechanism is a necessary part of tackling the problems of the eurozone, which is very much in the British national interest. Therefore, this legislation should go through in the speediest possible time.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, we all admire the lone role that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has cast for himself in bringing forward these amendments, and his boldness in bringing forward an amendment with which he does not, in fact, agree. This is bravery on a high scale in this debating Chamber.

The amendment, as he pointed out, seeks to insert into the Bill a requirement for a favourable vote in a national referendum before the UK could approve the European Council decision amending Article 136 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. The European Council decision amends Article 136 of the TFEU. It was adopted in accordance with the simplified revision procedure in Article 48(6) of the Treaty on European Union. The decision added a paragraph to Article 136 which confirms that EU members whose currency is the euro may establish a financial stability mechanism. The provisions of Article 136 and the proposed new paragraph apply only—I repeat, only—to member states whose currency is the euro. They do not, therefore, apply to the United Kingdom.

The Bill is required under Section 3 of the 2011 Act, to which the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, referred, to give parliamentary approval to the decision. The other two requirements of that Act were, as noble Lords will recall, a statement by the Minister giving his opinion as to whether a referendum is required—I will come to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, on that in a moment—and compliance with the so-called referendum condition, exemption condition or significance condition which we debated when we considered that Bill some time ago.

The 2011 Act makes it clear that decisions adopted under Article 48(6) of the TEU are not subject to a referendum under that Act if its provisions do not apply to the United Kingdom. The 2011 Act, to which the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, rightly drew attention, provides:

“A treaty or Article 48(6) decision does not fall within this section merely”—

I come to that word—

“because it involves ... the making of any provision that applies only to member States other than the United Kingdom”.

The “merely” is intended to indicate that other conditions are also taken into account—for example, the exemption condition or the significance condition. It is not only the fact that it does not apply to the United Kingdom and is outside the application of the United Kingdom; it involves other conditions as well. The decision amending Article 136 therefore clearly falls within the exemption set out in Section 4(4)(b) of the 2011 Act.

The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, raised again the doubts of his own party and colleagues about that Act, which was vigorously debated. I do not think that it would be in order to debate the Act again, although I am always happy to reopen these great issues. I happen to think that it was an immensely important Act which has been a considerable reinforcement to the concerns of the British people that there will be no further transfer of competence to the European Union without a referendum. It is an important safeguard, and my right honourable and noble friends have drawn attention to its importance.

The Government have been clear that a referendum is not required under the 2011 Act right from the very beginning. On 13 October 2011, the Foreign Secretary laid a Statement before Parliament in accordance with Section 5 of the Act, in which he confirmed that in his opinion a referendum was not required under the Act. The Statement was open to judicial review but, as my right honourable friend pointed out, in the intervening eight months, no one has sought to challenge it in the courts. The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, whose position is consistent and which he has put with admirable consistency over the years, said that in his view there was some practical implication of transfer of competence— although he did not put it in quite those words. But no judicial review to make that point has been launched. The noble Lord referred to the aspect, to which I will refer again in a moment, that in exchange for this going forward, the British liability to be exposed under the European financial stability mechanism is released, and the mechanism falls and is no longer in use. The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, was concerned that that was just a political decision and not enshrined in law. He is perfectly correct, but it is a decision by all 27 members, and it is a firm commitment. To unravel the whole of that would be to throw the entire arrangement of the EFSM into complete chaos. It would be a total reversal of a firm commitment made in good faith by 27 members. We believe that it is a substantial and supported condition.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

I am most obliged to the Minister. Can he deal with the point that I made concerning the article in the Times? I have given it to Hansard so I cannot quote from it again. The Times queried whether the European Court of Justice could interpret our passing of this Bill as an agreement to future financing within the European stability mechanism. The point being made by the Times was that perhaps the European Court could interpret what we are doing as being consistent with having to make future contributions.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The European Court proceeds in ways which some of us do not always understand, but it is required to interpret the law. There is no issue with the European financial stability mechanism in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, said. When this Bill is passed—I can boldly say when—and the amendment of Article 136 is ratified by all 27 member states, that will be the law, and the Court will interpret it. I do not see how the noble Lord could argue that this political decision, which is immensely valuable to the United Kingdom, could be somehow embroiled in the legal interpretations of the Court. I do not see how it comes into the interpretations of the law as embodied in the treaties.

When we debated the provisions of the EU Bill, as it then was, in this House last year, many Members were concerned that we might be bringing referenda into disrepute by requiring them for small changes to EU treaties and by being explicit about when a referendum was and was not required. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, made a proposition that something to do with paper clips, I think it was, could cause a referendum.

I spent a lot of time at this Dispatch Box explaining why we felt the provisions for referenda were not trivial. I explained that one of the reasons the European Union Bill was so long was so that it could be crystal clear about when a referendum was not required, and why issues which appeared small in the schedules to some of your Lordships were in fact the core of red-line considerations involving transfers of competence which we believed were not desirable and would certainly require a referendum.

The way in which the European Union Act 2011 applies to the treaty change we are considering today is clear. The provisions of this decision, amending Article 136 of the TFEU, do not apply to the United Kingdom, so the decision simply does not attract a referendum. What is more, there is no transfer of competence or power from the UK to the EU involved. The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart may feel that that is questionable; if that was his determined view and he thought he could mobilise the evidence for it, there would have been an opportunity for a judicial review, but no such review was brought forward.

The amendment to Article 136 simply recognises the ability of eurozone member states to establish a permanent stability mechanism—the European stability mechanism—by means of an intergovernmental agreement. The ESM is established by an agreement. This is not the ESM treaty. This is a treaty merely noting the amendment to the existing treaties, to Article 136.

I have listened very carefully, and I enjoyed the speech of the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, for which I am grateful. I hear the views of the noble Lord, Lord Liddle—who is a considerable expert on these things—that his party does not stand against this Bill, but believes it will make a contribution. We can have a debate on what sort of contribution it makes to a rapidly changing scene where there are many issues that cannot be resolved at this stage, but holding a referendum on this decision would contradict the clear provisions of the European Union Act 2011. It would introduce confusion about the circumstances in which a referendum would be required in the UK, and that is, to my mind, the reason, above all, why it should be—and, I hope, will be—resisted by your Lordships’ House.

European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [HL]

Lord Stoddart of Swindon Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

My Lords, the House is indeed fortunate to have present in this debate two former Chancellors of the Exchequer, who were able to impart their considerable experience over a wide area of matters, particularly in regard to the setting up of the eurozone. I am grateful to them for their speeches today.

Why are we hurrying this Bill? Why are we introducing it just a couple of weeks after the Queen’s Speech? There is no rush for it. Unless I am mistaken, the Irish are to have a referendum on the matter at the end of this month. The Germans will not ratify this policy until the autumn. I even noticed in today’s Financial Times that Geert Wilders has applied for an injunction to block ratification until after the September elections.

I heard the statement made by the noble Lord, Lord Howell, and others that a,

“healthy eurozone is important for the UK’s long-term growth”.

I put in there that that does not hold water, but that clearly was not robust enough because the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, described it, in much more stark terms, as “nonsense”. I think that that is a better description of it.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The issue of whether I was talking nonsense or not seems to have rattled through the debate. I think that we will all listen with fascination to the noble Lord’s speech, just as we listened to the excellent speech of my noble friend Lord Lawson. However, there was an error in that perhaps they did not hear my actual speech. I made it absolutely clear that stable progress in the eurozone states is vital to stable progress in the United Kingdom. That is not quite what the noble Lord seems to be accusing me of saying.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

It was not an accusation because I thought that I was quoting him. I am most obliged to the Minister for clarifying what he did say. I really do not like getting across the noble Lord, Lord Howell, because I respect him very much and think that he is perhaps the only statesman that the Government have among their ranks.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

For the sake of clarification, I was not quoting what my noble friend said in his opening remarks, which were rather more careful. What I explicitly quoted is what appeared under his name on the Foreign Office website, and I quoted that correctly.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I appreciate that he was relying on a press release, but I had hoped that, as he is sitting here, he might also have listened to my speech.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

Now that we have that out of the way, perhaps I can get on with my speech. There is no doubt, as other noble Lords have said, that the eurozone was a political construct, not a financial one, to create a single European state. Because it was made up of nations with diverse economies, it was bound to fail, as it now has. The noble Lord, Lord Radice, accused those of us who gave pause when the project was starting up of gloating because it has now patently failed. I do not gloat, and I do not think that others who warned of the consequences do so because the eurozone is now in difficulties. We believed that it was always going to be in difficulties; and for trying to point that out, we were derided and insulted. Indeed, the former Prime Minister, Mr Blair, said that we were unpatriotic. There is no gloating about this. We are extremely sad that the present situation has arisen.

As I understand it, the Bill allows the eurozone to further integrate and consolidate a failed system by attempting to shore it up through fiscal, economic and political union under central control by the large countries. I believe that the claim that the ESM cannot and never will apply to the United Kingdom is spurious and quite untenable. Article 16 expresses the aim that within the five years the treaty will be incorporated into the EU treaty framework, which presumably will include this country. Furthermore, we have heard all this before. Let us remember the famous Blair “red lines” over the EU constitution. All of them were eventually crossed and incorporated into the Lisbon treaty. We have to be careful when we are given assurances that certain things will not apply to this country.

I really must comment on the behaviour of the Prime Minister. He does not inspire confidence that the United Kingdom will not be sucked into this system. He seems to be suffering from EU schizophrenia. On the one hand, he opposed the setting up of the eurozone and has said that the UK will never join it; but on the other hand, he wants to dictate policy from the outside and has threatened the Greeks that if they do not vote in the right way, they will be thrown out of the euro. No wonder he is seen by the eurozone countries as a bully-boy shouting from the sidelines. He claims to be a Eurosceptic, yet demands more power for the centre.

I would like the Prime Minister to understand that the influential and decisive voices of the EU—for example, Mr Jose Manuel Barroso; Mr Herman Van Rompuy; Mr Wolfgang Schaeuble, the German Finance Minister; and Mr Olli Rehn, Commissioner for Economic and Monetary Affairs—and the shadowy group of Foreign Ministers and many others are calling for complete political integration under a European Government and the destruction or the sidelining of the nation states.

Why is the Prime Minister not shouting that very famous, “No, no, no”? Perhaps he is afraid of being stabbed in the back by the Deputy Prime Minister. The Prime Minister says that we will never join, but I remind him that others want the whole system to be extended into a single European state. This Bill will help those who wish to create a country called Europe, in spite of some voices this afternoon and in other debates who do not wish to see that happen.

EU: Recent Developments

Lord Stoddart of Swindon Excerpts

Thursday 16th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

My Lords, I am very pleased to be following the noble Lord, Lord Flight, and I am sure that the House enjoyed his very lively speech. I was also glad that he corrected the trade figures from 50 per cent to 40 per cent. Some people seem to believe that we did not trade with Europe before we joined the Common Market in 1973. But of course before 1973 we had very good trading relationships with Europe and made a profit on many of our exports; including cars, incidentally.

It is difficult to know where to start in a speech about the European Union because of the chaos that reigns in the Union, particularly in the eurozone. As usual, there have been some disparaging comments about those of us who are called Eurosceptics. I would remind those people that the Eurosceptics warned of the dangers of joining or having a single currency. We were told that if we did not join, we would be sidelined. We would miss the train and we would miss the boat. Indeed, people like me were called unpatriotic because we believed that it would be inimical to British interests to join the single currency.

We have been vindicated by events. We are not pleased about that, but we have been vindicated. We believe that the euro currency in the eurozone would not be good for this country even if it might be good for other countries. What surprises and amazes me—and we have heard it again this afternoon—is that the eurozealots who want to get rid of the pound still believe that the United Kingdom should join the euro. In spite of everything that has happened, they believe that we should still join. Even the Deputy Prime Minister believes that. I find that quite incredible.

[Lord Gilbert]

He is a Dutchman; that is why.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

The eurozone has proved that a single currency cannot work without fiscal and political union. A lot of people have pointed that out this afternoon.

This debate is about developments in the European Union. So far we have heard about great issues, but all sorts of things are going on all the time in the European Union, many of which affect ordinary people in this country. For example, the Solvency II capital rules, which I believe are now being agreed, will cost the British financial industry £600 billion, according to JP Morgan. They will cause massive damage to the United Kingdom’s pensions industry and will virtually kill off the last vestiges of final salary schemes. That will hurt ordinary British people. We should take note of that.

Then there is the proposal to make mortgages in default after 90 days in arrears, which conflicts with the Government’s own policy of helping people, quite rightly, to hang on to their homes when they are in financial difficulty. Then there is the demand for another £9 billion to meet the additional commitments in the present financial round, which will cost the United Kingdom £1 billion. That is extra to the £10.3 billion that we have already committed and money that we do not have. We will have to borrow £1 billion more. Only on Tuesday, the EU Commission announced that 12 member states, including the United Kingdom, are suffering from severe economic imbalances leading to economic shocks and that they will be placed under stringent observation so that they do not compromise the stability of the EU.

That dictatorial language and action is now commonplace in the EU. The treatment and humiliation of Greece by the EU is alarming, disgraceful and completely undemocratic. Furthermore, the Greeks have had the right to govern themselves taken away and the leaders of the Government are unelected Prime Ministers. The political parties now have to guarantee that they will put into place measures that will hurt ordinary Greeks in a manner that is totally unacceptable in anything other than a third world country. That is in advance of what will be done.

Some of us predicted that eventually there would be fighting in the streets in the European Union or Common Market. We now have it. We have fighting in the streets not only in Greece but in other countries as well—

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

But that was happening in London in August.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

Perhaps I may repeat that we have fighting in the streets in Greece and in other countries, such as Spain and Romania. That cannot be denied.

As usual, a crisis situation is being used to transfer more power to the EU institutions. The fiscal agreement was made between countries other than the United Kingdom and the Czech Republic. It may be intergovernmental at this stage. However, all experience has shown that inter-governmentalism eventually collapses and becomes an EU competence. That happened following the Single European Act, the Maastricht treaty, the Amsterdam treaty, the Nice treaty and the Lisbon treaty, all of which transferred more powers from nation states to the institutions of the European Union.

However, even this does not go far enough for the European top dogs. Frau Merkel, for example, was recently reported in the German newspaper Handelsblatt as saying that, step by step, European politics is merging with domestic politics. She called for closer political integration, with members ceding further powers to the European Commission, which ought to be the real government of Europe, with the Council of Ministers operating as a second chamber and adding strength to a European Parliament. That is the vision of people such as the Germans, which is also supported by the current President of France. The noble Lord, Lord Howell, does not agree with that. He is calling for a completely different sort of Europe—but Germany and France in particular are determined to go very much further than the noble Lord outlined in his speech. Of course it is not only the leaders of individual states who are doing this. Mr Barroso was this week telling the Chinese that the EU will become a fully fledged political union after the financial crisis. I hope that the Government will tell these people that that is not the vision that the United Kingdom has for the European Union; and, indeed, that the British people will not tolerate that. They want to continue to be governed by their own elected representatives and by institutions that have been built up and been successful over many hundreds of years.

Hungary

Lord Stoddart of Swindon Excerpts

Monday 30th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The sanctions are those that are available to the European Union as an organisation which requires certain standards that we adhere to very strongly—standards of behaviour, and moral, legal and social standards—throughout the European Union. That is the sanction available on that side. The Council of Europe also has powers to censure, and, indeed, challenge the continued membership of organisations within it. These are powerful pressures that need to be used in a balanced way and with the right approach. That is the situation which we are now grappling with.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

My Lords, is there not a problem here which has to be resolved? On the one hand, the people of Hungary have decided to have a Government and a new constitution that do not fit in with the rest of Europe. On the other hand, the European Union cannot possibly accept a Government of Hungary who have a constitution that is not in accordance with its views and background. How do we resolve the problem? Who is going to win in this—the electorate of Hungary or the European Union?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I do not quite see it in that sort of Manichean analysis between the European Union and Hungary. I see that there are certain objective standards of good government and free government, and the freedoms that we all fought for during all our lifetimes, and that these should be upheld. The European Union is a repository of those freedoms, as is the Council of Europe. When those standards are being departed from or flouted in any member state—indeed, we can extend this to organisations outside Europe, such as the Commonwealth—then all pressure should be brought to bear. It is not just a question of the European Union versus Hungary; it is a question of the proper rule of law, good governance, democracy and the core values and principles that we stand for and have fought for being adhered to in every possible way.

Lockerbie

Lord Stoddart of Swindon Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

On the second point about WPC Yvonne Fletcher, that is most certainly so. We are in touch with the Metropolitan Police about reopening their investigations into the perpetrators of that hideous crime. On the former question, the decision was made by the devolved Scottish Government and it is a matter for them to pursue. We have indicated that the Government in London will give full assistance to the devolved Government in pursuing their inquiries.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

My Lords, can the noble Lord inform us about the state of health of Mr Al Megrahi, who was released by the Scottish authorities on the grounds that he had only six months to live?