Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Debate between Lord Stewart of Dirleton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Committee stage
Tuesday 25th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)]

To pick up the noble Lord’s point about the CJEU, the Belfast/Good Friday agreement is based, as we have heard, on the consent of both communities. It is part of a package, along with VAT and state aid rules, that causes unionists to feel less connected and less part of the United Kingdom. As your Lordships have heard in the course of the debate today, all unionist parties cited the CJEU as a key driver of a major democratic deficit. This is not a hypothetical issue; there have been seven separate infraction proceedings brought against the United Kingdom by the EU, covering issues such as value-added tax, excise, pet passports and parcels. We consider it inappropriate for the CJEU to be the final arbiter.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I listened very carefully to what my noble and learned friend said, but the situation remains the same today, as the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, set out, as it was on the day that the Government claimed to have an “oven-ready deal”—I think those were the words—of which the protocol was an integral part. It is a cornerstone of the EU Withdrawal Agreement and, as the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, has stated, the remedy is in the protocol. So it is very unfair for the Members on the DUP Benches to be put in this position, but that is the position that was sold to both Houses.

[Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)]

My Lords, I beg respectfully to differ from my noble friend. The situation is not the same, because in the intervening period between the announcements to which my noble friend refers, and today, these problems about implementation have arisen; so the situation is not the same, and we simply cannot go back to reference the text of the argument.

Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Debate between Lord Stewart of Dirleton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Committee stage
Tuesday 25th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for canvassing that. Again, I accept that it is an important point, as are all those that have been made around your Lordships’ House today.

Not all principles of international law are tested before a court, and acceptance by the international community of a particular practice, or codification by relevant institutions, as in the articles on state responsibility, can provide very significant precedent. Necessity provides a justification for non-performance with specific terms of the protocol, for as long as the circumstances justifying necessity persist. That relates to the temporal point which the noble Lord makes. The relevant circumstances could last for a significant length of time, so it is not necessarily a short-term justification.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I am grateful to have had the opportunity for this debate. I regret to conclude that, despite the affection, respect and regard that I have for my noble and learned friend, and the fact that we are both members of the Faculty of Advocates—albeit I am non-practising—the Government’s legal position remains confused and flawed. On my specific question, the Advocate-General said in a previous debate that the Government reserved the right to invoke Article 16 as the legal base but did not give us the basis on which they would seek to do that. That was regrettable.

I am grateful to all who have spoken, particularly from the Front Benches opposite. I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, for responding to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Bew, more adequately than I could possibly have done. To all those who have spoken from the Northern Irish perspective, the House is absolutely agreed that the protocol is not working. I have had briefs from the National Farmers’ Union, NFU Scotland, and the Food & Drink Federation, which would particularly like to see that matters regarding trade work as smoothly as possible, bearing in mind that the food industry is probably the largest manufacturing industry; it is larger than the car industry. It is a very big sector taken with food, farming and farm production.

So I regret that we have been put in this position and that the Government are wilfully seeking to breach an international agreement and public international law that they freely entered into. I do not intend to press this matter any further this evening, but I reserve the right to revert on Report.

Nationality and Borders Bill

Debate between Lord Stewart of Dirleton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Committee stage
Thursday 10th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I am anxious not to delay matters but to seek clarification at this stage. A number of noble Lords have raised concerns about why the burden of proof has been changed and the fact that, through this higher standard, a number of victims may not enter the system at all. I cannot believe it is the Government’s wish to prevent genuine victims of modern slavery and trafficking to be excluded from the process. My noble and learned friend gave a simple, clear clarification that it was to make the bar the same for both, but the fallout, in the view of legal opinion from practitioners who will be using this on a daily basis, seems to be that we will inadvertently exclude justified victims from the whole process. I cannot believe that this is the Government’s intention, where they are genuine victims.

[Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for her intervention, which permits me the opportunity of not only repeating what I said from the Dispatch Box earlier about the importance of decisions being taken on a case-by-case basis, but advising the House—perhaps I should have done so in answering the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool—that in addition we are providing enhanced support and training to first responders.

The rationale underpinning the change proposed in relation to burdens of proof is certainly not to seek to exclude persons who ought to receive help and assistance from receiving it. The Government’s wish is that all who are victims should receive assistance and all who are criminal should receive their due punishment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, it has been an excellent debate. I thank everyone for their contributions. I think there may be a question outstanding from the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, as regards children under the age of 18, but I take it as read that anyone aged under 18 would still be referred to the local authorities. I assume that my noble and learned friend will write to us if that is not the case.

[Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for that, and I beg the pardon of the noble and learned Baroness for not addressing her question directly. If she is content, I will have that expressed in writing to her.

[Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)]

I am obliged.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble and learned friend. He has endeavoured to be as full as possible in his response to all noble Lords. I express my disappointment that the guidelines are being changed in the way the Government envisage. I am slightly confused, because a lot of the situations for which this Bill makes provision would not have arisen if we had kept our international and European responsibilities under the Dublin convention, whereby we could have returned many asylum seekers to the first country in which they arrived.

It is a regrettable change. I do not think my noble and learned friend disagreed that a number of victims will be omitted from the system as a result. I will consider with others what to do at the next stage, but at this stage I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.