Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Lord Black of Brentwood

Report stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Black of Brentwood (Con)]

My Lords, I strongly support Amendments 44A and 61 to 65 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, who is to be congratulated on raising this incredibly important and timely subject, her doughty leadership on these issues, and an absolutely first-class speech. I regret that I was unable to take part in Committee.

I will talk about the profound significance of these amendments for the media, although they are equally important across all the creative industries, which I know we will hear about. I declare my interest as deputy chairman of the Telegraph Media Group and note my other interests in the register.

The key point is that an effective, enforceable and comprehensive copyright regime is absolutely fundamental to the sustainability of a free, independent media. Without it, the media cannot survive. Publishers have to invest huge amounts of money in high-quality journalism, investigative reporting, world-class comment and content. That they can do so is because copyright laws protect this content, ensuring the commercial viability of publishers —print and broadcast—as well as the livelihoods of individual journalists and freelancers.

We talk a lot in this House about the threats to the free media resulting from digital, which smashed to pieces the business model that once sustained publishing and quality journalism. Publishers from across the spectrum have found innovative ways to adapt to that and produce new paths to commercial success to maintain their investment in independent investigation and reporting, which is the very lifeblood of a democracy. Parliament, with cross-party support, has assisted through the Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Act, which establishes a tough competition regime to control the untrammelled power of vast, unaccountable platforms. But just when the media has been successfully adapting to the new world, along comes a far graver threat—AI—and government proposals flying in the face of the DMCC Act to weaken, through a sweeping text and data-mining exception, the UK’s gold-standard copyright regime, which is the absolute bedrock of quality, independent, regulated media.

I know how strongly noble Lords opposite and from across the House value the fundamental role our free media plays in our democratic society, because without it, all of our freedom is in peril. The Bill and the connected government consultation will either help it or kill it; I am afraid it is as stark as that. Of course I welcome the Government’s apparent aim to provide transparency and facilitate licensing, but their preferred option of an exception—on which there has been no impact assessment, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, said—is fundamentally flawed and wholly impractical.

Instead, we need with these amendments to ensure three things happen to make investment in journalism possible through an effective legal regime protecting copyright, creativity and innovation. That is transparency, the power of control over how news content is used, and fair remuneration. Only that will drive the dynamic licensing market that is necessary to ensure both the media and AI sectors flourish and grow. These imaginative amendments will achieve that by expanding UK copyright law to cover any AI model linked to the UK, compelling, in a strikingly simple way, AI firms to provide information about how they scrape content and what they scrape, and ensuring we have the enforcement powers necessary to make big tech—which is so adept at arrogantly ignoring what it does not like and what this House says—take notice. That is why I will support these amendments, and I am proud to do so.

I must add that I am deeply disappointed that the long-standing commitment of my party to upholding the values of a free press and supporting the sustainability of the British media has not extended to formal support for these amendments. It is incredibly short-sighted.

If these amendments pass, as I hope they will, this legislation can complete a landmark trio of laws—with the Online Safety Act and the DMCC Act—to make the giant platforms regulated and accountable. Like others in this debate, I want to make it clear that I support the noble Baroness’s absolutely vital amendments not because I am anti-AI but because I am pro free independent media, pro the creativity which fuels it, and pro the commercial foundations that support it.

If these amendments are successful, we can create a situation where the tech and AI sectors can flourish alongside the creative industries, thereby powering economic growth between them. Because of the vital role the media plays in our democracy, I genuinely believe that this is one of the most crucial debates that we will have in this Parliament. I have this stark warning: without adequate transparency, control and reward, publishers will no longer be able to invest as they have in the creation of the original, high-quality investigative content on which our democracy and the accountability of those in power are based. Without that, our democracy will die in the dark at the hands of Silicon Valley, as we become dependent on the morass of fake news and social media clickbait. I strongly urge all noble Lords to support the amendments.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble, Lord Black, for daring to respond to the wonderful speech that opened the debate; I thought I might come in immediately afterwards, but I was terrified by it, so I decided that I would shelter on these Benches and gather my strength before I could begin to respond.

I feel that I have to speak because I am a member of the governing party, which is against these amendments. However, I have signed up to them because I have interests in the media—which I declare; I suppose I should also declare that I have a minor copyright, but that is very small compared with the ones we have already heard about—and because I feel very strongly that we will get ourselves into even more trouble unless action is taken quickly. I have a very clear view of the Government’s proposals, thanks to a meeting with my noble friend the Minister yesterday, where he went through, in detail, some of the issues and revealed some of the thinking behind them; I hope that he will come back to the points he made to me when he comes to respond.

There is no doubt that the use of a copyright work without the consent of the copyright owner in the United Kingdom is an infringement, unless it is “fair dealing” under UK copyright law. However, because of the developments in technology—the crawlers, scrapers and GAI that we have been hearing about—there is a new usage of a huge number of copyright works for the training of algorithms. That has raised questions about whether, and if so how, such usage has to be legislated for as “fair dealing”—if it is to be so—or in some other way, if there is indeed one.

It is right, therefore, for the Government to have required the IPO to carry out a consultation on copyright and AI, which we have been talking about. However, given the alarm and concern evident in the creative sector, we certainly regret the delay in bringing forward this consultation and we are very concerned about its limited scope. Looking at it from a long way away, it seems that this is as much a competition issue as it is a copyright issue. It seems to me and to many others, as we have heard, that the IPO, by including in the consultation document a proposed approach described as an “exception with rights reservation”, has made a very substantial mistake.

This may just be a straw-person device designed to generate more responses, but, if so, it was a bad misjudgement. Does it not make the whole consultation exercise completely wasteful and completely pointless to respond to? When my noble friend the Minister comes to respond, I hope that he, notwithstanding that proposed approach, will confirm that, as far as the Government are concerned, this is a genuine consultation and that all the possible options outlined by the IPO—and any other solutions brought forward during the consultation—will be properly considered on their merits and in the light of the responses to the consultation.

What the creative industries are telling us—they have been united and vehement about this issue, as has already been described, in a way that I have never seen before—is that they must have transparency about what material is being scraped, the right to opt in to the TDMs taking place and a proper licensing system with fair remuneration for the copyright material used. The question of whether the GAI developers should be allowed to use copyright content, with or without the permission of the copyright owner, is a nuanced one, as a decision either way will have very wide-ranging ramifications. However, as we have heard, this issue is already affecting the livelihood of our creative sector—the one that, also as we have heard, we desperately need if we are to support a sustainable creative economy and provide the unbiased information, quality education and British-based entertainment that we all value and want to see flourish.

We understand the need to ensure that the companies that want access to high-quality data and copyright material to train their AI models respect, and will be happy to abide by, any new copyright or competition regulations that may be required. However, the proposals we have heard about today—the ones that would come from the consultation, if we have to delay—will probably be very similar to the amendments before the House, which are modest and fair. We should surely not want to work with companies that will not abide by such simple requirements.

Digital Economy Bill

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Lord Black of Brentwood

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Thursday 2nd February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Black of Brentwood (Con)]

My Lords, I should like to say a few words in support of Amendments 73 and 235, to which I have added my name, and in doing so draw attention to my media interests as listed in the register. Like the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, whose summary of the issues was excellent and which I wholeheartedly endorse, I warmly welcome Clause 29 and the Government’s decision to scrap Section 73, but I urge them to get on with it straightaway rather than having any form of transitional period, as time really is of the essence.

There is a good reason for that. No one can be in any doubt about the speed of change right across the media. A technological tsunami is overwhelming all those involved in content production, while the pace of development in the sector is relentless and punishing. It is the clear responsibility of any Government who believe in the creative economy—and this Government certainly do—to do all they can to support them through it, in this case by allowing the commercial television sector to invest more in world-class content. The question of retransmission fees is one where the Government can be a real help or, indeed, a real hindrance.

The legislation that is being repealed is nearly 30 years old. When it was put on the statute book, the fax machine was a technological novelty and there is simply no rationale for it continuing a day longer than it has to. Like the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, I cannot see any reason for there to be a transitional regime, especially as all those involved have had fair warning of something which, as he said, we have been discussing since 2008. A further delay of up to two years is a lifetime in the creative industries and Section 73 is doing real harm now. If we are committed to a successful commercial public sector broadcasting industry and want to see investment in brilliant content, we should make sure that Section 73 goes as soon as the ink is dry on this legislation. Any law that is out of date and doing positive harm should go straightaway and not linger. It would be a real boost right across the whole of the UK’s creative economy and ensure that it gets an immediate benefit from this very important Bill.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, this has been a good debate on a topic that has been well rehearsed in this House. I have stood at this Dispatch Box and in the Moses Room trying to support the Government in their attempts to get to the root of this issue over a number of years and I sense that we are reaching the end of a journey. At this stage I am not opposing the decision by the Government that is reflected in the Bill to remove Section 73, but when the noble Baroness responds I hope she will be very clear about some of the thinking behind it. I do not think the issue is as uncomplicated as some other contributors to the debate have said.

In the first place, I understand that the primary reason is the abuse that has been exercised by non-cable operators in recent years, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, in relation to using Section 73 to try to gain access to PSB material for retransmission on iPad and other devices, but not on cable. Obviously, the review carried out by the Government was important, but the conclusions seem to reflect the fact that the thinking is still that the “must offer, must carry” provision will interpose itself into any negotiations about value. That is because if you must offer and there is a “must carry”, that will not make it a free and open negotiation about what the price should be. So I shall be interested to hear what the noble Baroness thinks. I understand that the Government have decided that although the repeal should go ahead, it should not result in significant fees flowing from cable operators to PSBs so, as I say, I should like to know what the thinking is on that.

While I agree with the way the Government are going forward, I worry about the risk of blank screens. If negotiations are to take place but result in a failure to agree, a very large number of people who have signed up in good faith to cable channels might not be able to watch the programmes that primarily drove them to sign up; that is, those of the PSB channels. In that sense it is important that we get absolutely the right story on that.

Our Amendment 73A, which I am delighted to hear is supported by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, the feeling is that if money is to be paid for carrying this material, it is important that it should be recirculated into original British production and not used simply to repay shareholders and others.