Extradition (Provisional Arrest) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 23rd March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords who have spoken. I was looking at the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, slightly strangely because it is unusual to speak twice on the same group of amendments. It really does not matter because these are very unusual times, so it is not a precedent.

I do not know whether noble Lords want me to go through the full arguments today or whether they want to return to them at Third Reading; I sense that that is the mood of the House. Noble Lords have made their arguments. For the reason that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, is not here and would like a further crack at this whip, I suggest that we let this lie for the moment and return to it at Third Reading, if that is okay with noble Lords.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

I am sorry to interrupt. The sensibility behind the noble Baroness’s comment is that this a matter that we can come back to at Third Reading. Without wishing to be overly bureaucratic about it, following her helpful line in allowing issues on Report to be taken in a more relaxed way, a rule in the Companion is quite clear that it is with the leave of the Minister that matters can be raised again. Is she saying that, if these amendments are withdrawn, she will accept that they may be brought back for further debate and discussion? That would be sufficient for the clerks to be able to allow us to do that.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I most certainly am saying that. For me to lay out arguments today, with the noble Baroness saying what she said about coming back to this at Third Reading, would seem a little futile. That is absolutely what I am saying.

Data Protection Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 13th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, we have Amendment 37 tabled in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Kennedy in this group. The focus of our amendment is to tease out from the Dispatch Box a sense of what is meant by “meaningful” in the context of the discussions we have already had about how organisations might disclose details of algorithms used in profiling and data-driven decision systems, to meet the obligation in the GDPR to provide meaningful information about what has been going on in that space. It will be difficult to do this because “meaningful” can involve many words and obligations and is, I think, a slightly slippery concept. It will probably exercise the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, in its imprecision—but do not blame us, mate; it is the GDPR, which we are not allowed to discuss. However, I think that the Minister can help us here by providing a bit more information.

We have suggested that a way of dealing with this would be to look at how the information is used and make it a requirement that it should,

“be sufficient to enable the data subject to assess whether the profiling will be beneficial or harmful to their interests”.

That may not be sufficiently strict legal language but, if it is an important distinction, it would help to get us to the point at which the Minister might say that she will bring back improved wording in an amendment at Third Reading.

The real issue which is not discussed here is the question of whether we can access the algorithms themselves. The problem, and the reason for the solution to that problem lying in terms of the test of how it works in practice, is that it is not sufficient just to have simple information about the actual mathematics of the algorithm because that in itself would not give us enough information. What we need, for those in a particular part of the population cohort, is knowledge of the consequences of being in one category or another and how that is weighed up by those carrying out the processing. This covers all the ways in which decisions are made on credit, on our purchases and how we are advertised to. It is happening now, so the sooner we can get the information, the better. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s comments when she comes to respond.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, I start by thanking noble Lords for their amendments, which bring us back to the important issues around the use of automated processing in what is an increasingly digital world. I apologise if my smile was misleading, I was just very pleased to see the noble Baroness in her place; it did not indicate anything other than that.

The range in which automated processing is applied includes everything from suggested views on YouTube to quotes for home insurance and beyond. In considering these amendments it is important to bear in mind that automated decision-making can bring benefits to data subjects, so we should not view these provisions simply through the prism of threats to data subjects’ rights. The Government are conscious of the need to ensure that stringent provisions are in place to regulate appropriately decisions based solely on automated processing. We have included in the Bill the necessary safeguards such as the right to be informed of automated processing as soon as possible, along with the right to challenge an automated decision made by a data controller or processor. We have considered the amendments proposed by noble Lords and believe that Clauses 13, 43, 48, 94, 95, 111 and 189 provide sufficient safeguards to protect data subjects of all ages—adults as well as children.

Data Protection Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 15th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said in her opening remarks, the amendments in this group relate to the data protection principles as they apply to law enforcement processing.

I will deal first with the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, before moving on to the others. Amendments 129G and 129H would add a requirement that processing under Part 3 be transparent as well as lawful and fair, thus mirroring the data protection principles set out in Parts 2 and 4 of the Bill. There is a very simple explanation for the difference of approach. The GDPR and the Council of Europe Convention 108, on which the provisions of Parts 2 and 4 are based, are designed for general processing. Therefore, it is wholly appropriate in that context that the processing of personal data should be transparent. Of course, that data protection principle, as with certain others, will apply subject to the application of the exceptions provided for in Parts 2 and 4, including where necessary to safeguard national security. At first glance, I accept that it might seem odd that Part 4 of the Bill, which relates to processing by the intelligence services, contains a requirement for transparency, but the provisions in Part 4 must be compliant with the modernised Convention 108. As I have said, that data protection principle will operate subject to the application of the exceptions provided for in that part.

In contrast, Part 3 of the Bill reflects the provisions of the law enforcement directive, which is designed to govern law enforcement processing; in this context, it is appropriate that the transparency requirement should not apply. A requirement that all such processing be transparent would, for example, undermine police investigations and operation capabilities. That is not to say that controllers under Part 3 will not process data transparently where they can, and Chapter 3 of this part imposes significant duties on controllers to provide information to data subjects.

Amendments 129J and 133ZJ are not about a popular Saturday night television programme, but about the significance of the word “strictly” in the context of Clause 33(5). Our approach here, and elsewhere, has been to copy out the language of the law enforcement directive wherever possible. Article 10 of the LED uses the phrase “strictly necessary”. The noble Baroness asked whether references in Part 3 to “necessary” and “strictly necessary” should be interpreted differently. That must be the case: “strictly necessary” is a higher threshold than “necessary” on its own.

Amendment 130A brings us back to the report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which was the subject of some debate on day two of Committee. As the noble Baroness, Lady Chisholm, indicated in response to that debate, we are carefully considering the Delegated Powers Committee’s report and will respond before the next stage of the Bill.

Amendment 133ZB would replace the term “legitimate” in Clause 34—which establishes the second data protection principle—with the phrase “authorised by law”. I do not believe that there is any material difference between the two terms. Moreover, “legitimate” is used in both the GDPR and the LED, so for that reason we should retain the language used in those instruments to avoid creating legal uncertainty.

The noble Baroness asked about ECJ case law, post Brexit. The European Union (Withdrawal) Bill sets out how judgments of the Court of Justice of the European Union are to be treated by domestic courts and tribunals after exit day. Clause 6 of that Bill draws a distinction between pre-exit and post-exit CJEU case law. Domestic courts and tribunals are not bound by post-exit case law but may have regard to it if they consider it appropriate. In contrast, pre-exit case law is binding on most domestic courts and tribunals in so far as it is relevant to questions pertaining to retained EU law. The Supreme Court and, in some circumstances, the High Court of Justiciary are, however, not bound. They may depart from pre-exit CJEU case law by reference to the same test that applies when they decide whether to depart from their own case law.

Amendment 133ZD seeks to strike out the reference to “where relevant” in Clause 36(3), which requires a controller to make a distinction between different categories of data subjects, such as suspects, convicted offenders and victims. There may well be a case where it simply would not be relevant for a controller to draw such a distinction. If a controller processes data in respect of only one of the categories of data subject, there is evidently no need for this provision.

Amendment 133ZE seeks to simplify the drafting of Clause 36(4). I do not believe the definitions in Clause 2 support the case for this amendment. Clause 2 defines processing, which includes disclosure, but it does not provide a general definition of disclosure, so it is preferable to retain the language in Clause 36(4).

Amendment 133ZK would introduce a requirement on controllers to publish their policy documents relating to sensitive processing. Such policy documents may contain operationally sensitive information that could well be damaging if published. Given this, scrutiny of such documents by the Information Commissioner, where necessary, provides an appropriate safeguard.

I turn to the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and articulated by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson. Amendment 133ZA would remove archiving from the list of conditions for processing sensitive data. Law enforcement agencies often archive data for public protection purposes. However, it is right that sufficient safeguards should be in place, particularly concerning sensitive data. The Bill achieves this by permitting archiving only where it is necessary.

The noble Lord asked in what circumstances archiving would be carried out for a purpose connected with law enforcement processing. It may be necessary where, for example, a law enforcement agency needs to review historical offences, such as allegations of child sexual exploitation. On this occasion, data have been processed for the purposes of reviewing the approach taken in child abuse cases investigated decades previously.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for that example. I could have used scientific or historical research. Again, I am not entirely clear why these are law enforcement categories. The general ability to take a derogation relating to either of the items listed is well spelled out in the schedule, but I was trying to address the narrow formulation of that in a law enforcement category. The particular example is fine and it is possible that could be right, but I do not think it applies across science, historical or statistical research. Does it?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It may do if it pertains to law enforcement purposes, but we may be dancing on the head of a very small pin. Perhaps I could come back to the noble Lord, but where it overlaps into the law enforcement sphere I would think it relevant. However, I will write to him to clarify and confirm my thoughts on that.

The noble Lord also asked about retention of data. I am not sure that was on this amendment, but he is right that it is not—

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

Later on.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Okay, I will carry on to Amendment 133ZC, which seeks to require that further processing for law enforcement purposes must have a statutory basis. This would prevent further processing in circumstances that are lawful but not provided in statute. It cannot be in the public interest to unduly restrict the use of data that could assist law enforcement to carry out its legitimate functions.

Amendment 133ZF would remove the law enforcement qualification from Clause 36(4). Its purpose appears to be to ensure that inaccurate data cannot be processed irrespective of whether it is for a law enforcement purpose. For processing other than for a law enforcement purpose, the controller must apply Part 2 of the Bill. Also with reference to Clause 36, Amendment 133ZG would insert a requirement that inaccurate data must be erased if it is not corrected. I understand exactly why this might be a fitting addition. However, it will not always be appropriate for law enforcement where data may form part of a criminal case. For instance, it may be important for evidential reasons for data to be kept unaltered. Inaccurate information could also be evidence of perjury or perverting the course of justice.

Amendment 133ZH would require the controller to have in place a document outlining their retention policy, which would have to be made available to the Information Commissioner on request. Clause 42 already provides safeguards, including a duty to inform the subject about the period for which the data will be stored or the criteria used to determine the period. Moreover, in the policing context, there are policy documents already published that cover this ground, such as the College of Policing manual on the management of police information.

Finally, I will deal briefly with the three government amendments in this group, Amendments 131, 139 and 140, for which the noble Lord has stated his support. They relate to Schedules 8, 9 and 10, which set out a number of conditions, at least one of which must be met, where a law enforcement agency processes sensitive personal data, or one of the intelligence services processes any personal data. They clarify that any processing is lawful for the purposes of the exercise of a function conferred on a person by a rule of law as well as by an enactment. This is consistent with the existing scheme under the Data Protection Act 1998.

In the case of the police, the processing of personal data is, in some instances, undertaken utilising common-law powers in pursuit of their function to prevent crime. One such example is the operation of the domestic violence disclosure scheme, or Clare’s law. Under that scheme, a police force may disclose information to a person about a previous violent and abusive offending behaviour of their partner when he or she was in a previous relationship. It is vital that the police can continue to protect people by disclosing sensitive personal information using their common-law powers.

Amendments 139 and 140 to Schedules 9 and 10 respectively ensure consistency of approach across Parts 3 and 4 of the Bill.

To go back to the point about retention of data and the noble Lord’s point about reviewing whether data are still required, appropriate action should follow such a review. The fifth data protection principle makes this clear. If data are no longer required they should be deleted. I am not entirely sure which amendment that refers to, but I hope some of the explanations I have given will ensure that noble Lords and the noble Baroness are content not to press their amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Yes, that is the point I made.

One of the rights afforded by Part 4 is that a data subject can require a controller not to process their personal data if that processing is an unwarranted interference with their interests or rights. If such a request is received, the controller may require further information in order to comply with the request. This includes information so as to be satisfied of the identity of the requesting individual or information so that they can locate the data in question.

Amendment 146B would require the requesting individual to provide information to help the controller locate the data in question only if the individual themselves knows where the data is located. I think we can agree that it is very unlikely that a data subject would know the exact location of data processed by a controller. As such, this change could make it more difficult for a controller to locate the data in question, as the data subject could refuse to provide any information to aid in the locating of their data. This could make it impossible for the controller to comply with the request and would in turn deprive the data subject of having their request fulfilled.

Chapter 4 of Part 4 deals with the obligations of the controller and processor. Controllers must consider the impact of any proposed processing on the rights of data subjects and implement appropriate measures to ensure those rights. In particular, Clause 101(2)(b) requires that risks to the rights and freedoms of data subjects be minimised. Amendment 148A would require that those risks be also dealt with in accordance with the Bill. If I understand the purpose of this amendment correctly and the noble Baroness’s intention is that the broader requirements of Part 4 should apply to any new type of processing, I can concur with the sentiments behind this amendment. However, it is not necessary to state this requirement in Clause 101; all processing by the intelligence services must be in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Bill.

Finally, Clause 106 requires that the controller notify the Information Commissioner if the controller becomes aware of a serious personal breach of data for which it is responsible. A data breach is deemed serious if it seriously interferes with the rights and freedoms of a data subject. Amendment 148B seeks to alter the level at which a data breach must be notified to the commissioner by lowering the threshold from a serious interference with the rights and freedoms of a data subject to a significant interference. The threshold is set purposely at serious so that the focus and resources of the controller and commissioner are spent on breaches above a reasonable threshold. We also draw the noble Baroness’s attention to the draft modernised Convention 108, which uses the phrase “seriously interfere”.

I am mindful that some noble Lords in this Chamber will be utterly perplexed by the subject matter to which we have been referring, so I hope that, with those words, the noble Lord will be sufficiently reassured and will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

The answer to that question is that we are not happy with what the Minister said about the ability of the intelligence services, uniquely in this whole area, to charge a fee to discourage people from getting access to the rights which they certainly have under the Act. I sensed that the Minister understands that; perhaps it is a little unfair to say that, as most other noble Lords were not able to see her smile, gently, as she tried to put substance and seriousness into the argument she was using, which was clearly very thin indeed. To make the point, we are relying on a convention which has yet to be signed. That is the fig leaf under which we will be smuggling these ridiculous fees. I urge the Minister to take this back and think again, and I look forward to a further discussion with her if she feels that any more information could be provided.

Committee on the Equality Act 2010 and Disability Report

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 6th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, first, I take the opportunity to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, for securing this important debate on the eve of the Paralympics, as the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, said, and on the 21st anniversary of the Disability Discrimination Act. I also thank her for coming to see me today. I understand she will be meeting the Secretary of State later this week.

I am also grateful to other noble Lords who have spoken very thoughtfully on this subject. I am particularly grateful to the mobile Bench. I did not know the noble Baronesses were called the mobile Bench or bunch, but they are certainly a very formidable line-up.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, and her colleagues on the now-disbanded but certainly not forgotten Select Committee on the Equality Act 2010 and Disability for their wide-ranging report which was published in March. It is timely and comprehensive and highlights the continuing challenges and obstacles which disabled people face on a daily basis. Many examples have been given today.

I hope noble Lords will be happy—or at least less unhappy—on leaving the debate than they have been in recent months about some of the things that I am to say, which I hope will bring a bit of cheer. The committee’s report rightly focused on a number of important issues, such as how adequately we imbed disabled people’s needs into the first steps to plan services and also when we construct premises. I take the point about Crossrail incredibly seriously. I almost could not believe it when the noble Lord raised it, but so many noble Lords repeated it that I will look into the issue and find out why such a huge construction project was built without step-free access. That theme on the construction of premises has now, as noble Lords have said, been taken up by the Women and Equalities Select Committee in the other place for its own inquiry.

The report also fairly examined whether both public and private sectors have been sufficiently proactive in meeting the needs of citizens with a disability and whether there is still a tendency simply to react to problems once they have arisen or to be forced into action when pressed. We further acknowledge the importance of two-way communication between government and disabled people and their representatives, something that the report says we can improve on, in turn improving access to justice and how services are delivered.

For the bulk of what I am going to say, I now turn to points that noble Lords have raised. The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, spoke about court fees, and I will also talk about qualified one-way costs. The Government’s post-implementation review will report in due course, and we will consult on any subsequent proposals for changes to the fees or the remissions system. Lord Justice Jackson recommended the introduction of qualified one-way costs in public injury claims, but the Government will consider the possible extension of qualified one-way costs shifting to other categories of law, including claims made under the Equality Act, in due course, once there is some experience of the regime in personal injury.

The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, also talked about legal aid. We have made sure that legal aid continues to be available to provide access to justice for people in the most serious cases. It includes, subject to statutory means and merits tests, legal aid for disputes with local authorities about community care services for disabled people and for discrimination claims relating to the contravention of the Equality Act.

The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, also talked about the PSED amendment to ensure that public authorities take steps towards equality rather than having “due regard”. The due regard test is well established and the courts have recognised that difficult decisions by elected politicians should not be second-guessed by the courts where all the relevant facts have been considered. The due regard requirement helps to ensure that public bodies remain conscious of equality issues throughout the process of exercising their functions. As soon as a requirement becomes more specific—the noble Baroness and I talked about this today—or task-oriented, there is inevitably the risk that many public bodies may start to think of short cuts or ways out of fulfilling their duties. That is an important point.

The noble Baroness and a couple of noble Lords talked about disabled people losing out now under the PSED. We disagree, first and foremost because two of the leading cases brought under the PSED on the spare room subsidy and the independent living fund were brought by, or on behalf of, disabled people. We feel that if public bodies were under separate duties to have regard to each of the protected characteristics in the Equality Act, we would have a more complicated and bureaucratic scheme than at present.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Deech and Lady Thomas, and other noble Lords talked about the culmination of the change of Ministers and Ministers not being in any one department. There was also a suggestion that the Minister responsible for disabled people might be of a higher rank and a full member of the Cabinet Social Justice Committee. Following the ministerial reshuffle, I requested that I remain as a Minister in the GEO, so as far as the House of Lords is concerned, there is continuity—at least for the moment. The Government have always been clear that regardless of rank, whenever Ministers, whether for faith and integration or for disabled people, speak on disability issues, they speak on behalf of the Secretary of State. Being rank-oriented is probably not entirely helpful.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

There is a double issue about ministerial positions. The point that the Minister has made is correct but there is a question about whether there would be a greater effect on policy activity if all the Ministers could be in one department—for instance, one in DWP implies a disability focus whereas there is a bigger concept of equality and human rights. The other issue is what would happen if there were to be a British Bill of Rights as there may well be; there has been one from the Ministry of Justice.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally understand the noble Lord’s point. Having been in government for a very short time, I believe that if all the Ministers are in one department the attitude can be that it is another department’s responsibility. Issues on disability, race equality and women’s equality should be cross-governmental; every department should take ownership of them. We could argue about that till the cows come home, but our thinking is that it should be a cross-government approach.

The noble Lord, Lord McColl, as well as the noble Baronesses, Lady Campbell, Lady Brinton and Lady Deech, talked about bringing into force all sections of the Equality Act regarding taxis. We talked earlier on outside the Chamber about the best and the worst stories about taxi drivers. I had a very good experience the other week, when we spotted a disabled man whose wheelchair had run out of batteries. The taxi driver could not have done more to assist this man, who would have been helpless in the middle of the street without him. But there are terrible stories as well, and the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, outlined her experiences in different parts of the country.

Among the provisions in Part 12 of the Act, which concerns access to taxis and private hire vehicles for people who are disabled, those relating to the carriage of assistance dogs are now in force, while those relating to the assistance provided to wheelchair users will be commenced very soon. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, talked about enforcement—how do we make sure these people do this. It will be a criminal offence for drivers of designated wheelchair-accessible taxis or private hire vehicles to refuse wheelchair users assistance or to charge them extra. The fine will be up to £1,000. The noble Lord, Lord McColl, asked whether the Government will introduce guidance and training to supplement the introduction of the duty on taxis to take wheelchairs. The answer is yes: guidance will be produced by the Department for Transport to coincide with the introduction of the duty.

The noble Lord, Lord McColl, and the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, also asked about bringing into force Section 36 of the Equality Act. We are conscious that a small number of those sections of the Act that have not been commenced are of particular relevance to disabled people. Accordingly, we are currently reviewing the position on Section 36—even though the noble Baroness might sigh at that response. The duty to make reasonable adjustments to common parts, as our response to the committee makes clear, is a complex issue, but the Government hope to conclude the review by the end of this year, and I am sure I will be taken to task if that does not happen. We will of course report our decision to the Women and Equalities Committee.

The noble Lords, Lord McColl and Lord Low, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Deech and Lady Brinton, talked about the crucial role of audio-visual on all new buses. Building on the Public Service Vehicles Accessibility Regulations, which provide a step change in accessibility for many disabled people, the Bus Services Bill makes specific provision for equipment to be fitted on vehicles that will provide all audio and visual information where the majority of operators in an enhanced partnership agree, and franchising authorities will be able to make similar requirements for the operators of their services. The Bill’s open data provisions will also help to ensure that all passengers have the information to make informed choices about their travelling options. We understand the frustration about the lack of progress in the provision of accessible information outside of London and are actively considering how its uptake can be encouraged.

A number of noble Lords asked about the cumulative impact assessment of cuts et cetera on disabled people. Considering the impact on people with disabilities and those with other protected characteristics is an integral part of the Government’s approach to their policy work. It includes measures taken at all Budgets and other fiscal events and reflects the Government’s principal commitment to fairness as well as their legal obligations.

There were a number of questions about G4S. The noble Baroness, Lady Prosser, expressed concern about the contract with G4S, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Deech. I have to say that G4S was the winner of a thorough, competitive tender process for this contract to run the Equality Advisory and Support Service. We believe that the G4S group has a good background for taking on the EASS functions. During the last three years it has successfully run Child Maintenance Options, a helpline for the Department for Work and Pensions involving many of the same factors that may be present in EASS contacts: callers who may be distressed or emotionally vulnerable and cases that may be complex and span a number of calls or contacts, sometimes with people whose first language is not English. We believe that G4S’s ability to engage positively with this type of case and type of customer provides a good basis for the delivery of the helpline. More generally, it is committed to fulfilling its responsibilities in all its companies around the world by applying the UN’s 2011 Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights. I hope noble Lords will be able to see beyond the immediate reaction of some NGOs and lobby groups. The Equality Advisory Support Service is an essential service that we are aiming to continue operating on a seamless basis and to the same standards as before.

The noble Baroness, Lady Prosser, talked about training for G4S staff, which clearly is essential. We agree that training for the new G4S staff will be necessary and undertaken; in fact, it has already begun.

The noble Lord, Lord Northbrook, and the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, made the point that the Government say the EHRC did not want to run the EASS but the EHRC’s response contradicts that. The EHRC did not bid to operate the helpline itself, nor did it propose operating it in discussions with the GEO. The EHRC proposed to manage the tender process but acknowledged that, because of the value of the contract and EU procurement requirements, there was insufficient time to conduct the procurement outside a preapproved framework. That was the approach that the Government used.

The noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, asked why there was a difference of view between the Government and the EHRC over the EHRC taking back the EASS. To be clear on this, the EHRC’s proposal to the Government was that it wanted to reshape and retender the EASS helpline. Its proposal did not involve running the service itself. In retendering the service, the EHRC would have had to have worked within the same contractual framework as the Government, and it proposed to use the GEO resources and support to do so. That was not a cost-effective option for the Government.

The noble Baroness also talked about the EHRC’s disability committee being retained, and whether the Government would hold a meeting with the EHRC and members of that committee to discuss this matter. Now that the order to dissolve the committee has been made, the EHRC’s arrangements for its disability work are essentially a matter for the commission itself. I note that the EHRC rejected the relevant recommendation in the committee’s report. None the less, Ministers meet the EHRC chair and the chief executive from time to time, and I know they would be happy to discuss at a forthcoming meeting their plans for ensuring that its disability work remains effective and well supported by evidence.

The noble Baroness also talked about commencing Section 14 on dual discrimination. As was said in the Government’s response to the committee’s report, we are considering the future of a number of uncommenced provisions in the Equality Act 2010. Unlike, say, the uncommenced reasonable adjustment provisions, we do not see dual discrimination as a particularly well-tailored measure for disabled people.

I am running out of time so I will try to move as quickly as possible. The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, asked for technical guidance from the EHRC to be laid before Parliament as codes of practice. We are yet to be persuaded that codes are the solution when technical guidance can often do an effective job, and we are certainly not aware of any concerns from those for whom the statutory code are intended—the courts, tribunals, employers and service providers—that EHRC guidance on a few areas on the Act appears in a technical non-statutory form rather than as codes. We will, however, continue to bear in mind whether codes might in some circumstances have more to offer.

I turn to sports grounds, which many noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, talked about. As has been said, the Government did not support the Accessible Sports Grounds Bill because legislation already exists in the form of provisions in the Equality Act 2010 which require providers of services such as sport stadia to the public to make a reasonable adjustment—for example, a gangway—so that disabled people are not placed at substantial disadvantage. It was felt that the blanket approach adopted by the Bill departed from the careful balance achieved in the Equality Act. We note that, to date, no disabled spectator has brought a case under the reasonable adjustments provisions in that Act.

Moving on to the Premier League’s pledges for 2017, we are disappointed, as are noble Lords, by its progress and will be asking it for a far more detailed report giving a club-by-club breakdown setting out what work has been done and what is planned to meet the August 2017 deadline. The pledges were made publicly by the Premier League on behalf of clubs and we look forward to its taking action against clubs that have failed to meet their targets. If Premier League clubs fail to meet their accessibility commitments, we will expect the Premier League to take appropriate action against all non-compliance.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, made an interesting point about clubs in receipt of public money and how we can hold their feet to the fire. Off the top of my head, I would imagine that clubs would be caught by state aid rules. I thought about Section 106 money being used better to enforce their obligations under the Disability Discrimination Act when work is done by clubs. Perhaps we could take that up.

I have absolutely run out of time. I should have liked to have gone through some of the things that the Government are doing. Perhaps I may put a note in the Library to outline that. There will be questions that I have not answered but, on that note, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate.

Caste Discrimination

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 15th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, cases of this nature are very few and far between. As I said, the Government are actively considering the matter.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, the last Government passed a Bill that required the present Government to act, and they have failed to do so. We understand that there is evolving case law, but it does not fully satisfy those who feel that the law must be respected. The Government may be new, but are they really changing the rules so that we will be governed by what they think might be a helpful way forward?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it would not be appropriate for me to speculate on discussions within government. I do not want to comment on or rule out any course of action. As I have said a couple of times now, the Government are considering the present position.

Higher Education: Funding

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 8th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the long-term sustainability of higher education funding in the United Kingdom.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, participation in higher education has huge benefits for both student and state, and that is why the English higher education funding system shares the cost of study. The system of grants and government-subsidised student loans, which are based on income-contingent repayment, has enabled us to maintain student numbers, and universities now have a sustainable income stream. In 2014, we have had record participation rates both for 18 year-olds and for disadvantaged students.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that full reply. I thought that she would simply refer me to the Answer that she gave on 15 December to a very similar Question from her noble friend the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey. I have read the OECD report that she quoted on that occasion—in fact, she quoted it three times—to support her assertion that the coalition Government have a sustainable system of higher education funding. On page 261 of that report, the OECD notes:

“Since 2009, further changes have been made to tuition fees and public support systems”,

in the United Kingdom.

“However, the data presented here … do not reflect these more recent changes”.

In other words, since the tripling of university fees, the elimination of HEFCE’s teaching grant and the introduction of punitive interest rates for student loans, the OECD has actually made no statement about the sustainability or otherwise of the coalition Government’s present HE funding system, and it is surely disingenuous of Ministers to assert otherwise. In the light of this, would the Minister confirm that her quote was taken out of context from the OECD report, apologise for misleading this House and withdraw the comments that she made on behalf of the Government on 15 December?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, to say that a Minister is misleading the House is quite a strong thing to say and should definitely be backed up by facts. I refer the noble Lord to a comment by Andreas Schleicher, the OECD’s director for education and skills, two days ago in an article, where he said that,

“the UK offers still the most scalable and sustainable approach to university finance”.

I wonder whether the noble Lord might in fact withdraw his comments.

Disabled Students’ Allowance

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 7th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness makes a valid point. Postgraduate funding is indeed less than undergraduate funding. How the reforms will exactly pan out has been under consultation and the Government will shortly provide guidance to institutions. I hope the noble Baroness has made that point during the consultation process.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, under the new arrangements, each individual student will have to negotiate the package of measures they get from their university. In contrast to what happens at present—where there is a statutory framework—there will be no overarching arrangements. What happens when things go wrong? Who will have rights in this matter and where will the statutory rights be located?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

In terms of recourse if things go wrong, there are two directions in which a student can turn. The first is the Office of the Independent Adjudicator. The second is the exceptional case process, the format of which is under consideration and will be announced shortly.

Higher Education: Financial Sustainability

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 15th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I do not recognise the words “canoe”, “upstream” or “waterfall” mentioned in that question. According to the OECD, we are one of the few nations to have introduced a system of sustainable higher education finance. Indeed, our numbers of students are up to record levels at nearly half a million.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, is there not a triple whammy? The Government are no longer funding higher education; they are funding the debts of students who are attending universities. Students are acquiring debts—the latest figures from the IFS show an average debt of £44,000 per student leaving university. In addition, as we have just heard, universities have lost funding for important courses such as languages. The Government say that there is no imminent pressure on the system. Which way is the Minister facing?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I am facing firmly in the direction of the widely accepted view that both the student and the state should share the burden of higher education. In fact, graduates have higher earning potential than non-graduates.