Buckinghamshire (Structural Changes) Order 2019
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts(4 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)
My Lords, I declare an interest: I have lived in Buckinghamshire for 25 years, which is a long period of time which I am afraid is about to come to an end because I move out in about six weeks’ time. But I could not let this moment pass without drawing on that experience and sharing a little of it with your Lordships’ House. I thank the Minister for the meeting that was arranged last week at which we were able to go through some of the bigger issues that underlie this change, and I was grateful to know that he had made some adjustments to the way in which he presented the case this evening.
My remarks this evening will be brief. I draw heavily on comments made by Dame Cheryl Gillan MP in the other place when she spoke on both the orders that are now going through this House as well. I have also been given the notes that would have been read by the noble Baroness, Lady Pidding, who has an unbreakable appointment and cannot be with us. She wanted to make sure that some of her points were brought to the attention of the House.
I make it clear that I am not against unitarisation of local authority services. In some senses, the proposal put forward today has many justifying points, which the Minister drew attention to when he spoke. But the arguments that have been made and the process behind it are not sufficient for what is a very major change in the way in which our county is being organised. The criteria that the Minister mentioned and were used by the Secretary of State were to improve the area’s local government, to make sure that there is strong local support and to ensure that at the end there is credible geography. My judgment is that on all three counts the proposal does not satisfy those aspirations.
As the Minister explained, the proposal that has been accepted was made by the county council and not by any of the district councils—four district councils, which are doing an excellent job, were against the proposal for a single unitary authority—and 70% of parish councils were similarly against, so it is very hard to see exactly where the local support is coming from. The figures mentioned during the consultation on the actual proposal were also significant numbers—47% of those who submitted a response were in favour of retaining a unitary but bicameral or two-county solution to the issues.
One main concern that has not been touched on by the Minister but which is behind the proposal is that the county council has suffered from a considerable reduction in finances recently. There have been pressures on social services, education, road maintenance and many other issues. That needs to be addressed if this proposal is to be successful. Irrespective of the form it finally takes, if the money is not there, there will not be a satisfactory solution for local people in terms of local services.
At the end of the day, what we are being asked to accept is not credible in terms of geography. It is a very large, long and thin county and it has very poor north-south communications. Also, it is an area that will be affected by a major development—the Oxford-Cambridge arc of prosperity—which will go right through the top end of the county. In the process of doing this, we are ignoring the significant impact of all the activity that goes along with Milton Keynes. So this is an odd and unbalanced approach to what could have been a reformation of the sorts of services that are required. In many senses, Bucks looks closer to Oxford and they share many services, particularly in education. It looks to the north through Milton Keynes to Northampton and to the east to Luton and the surrounding areas. In the process of trying to reorganise within Buckinghamshire, the ultimate solution may be suboptimal whether it is a single unitary or double unitary authority.
I have three minor points that the Minister mentioned but it would be helpful if he could pick them up when he comes to respond. There is a feeling in Buckinghamshire that the winner of this reorganisation is the county council. It dominates the shadow authority. It is chaired by the current leader of Buckinghamshire County Council, as we have been told. It is also composed of nine members from the county council, with only two from each of the district councils, which comes to eight, so there is an inbuilt majority. It is fair to point out that, once established, there will be a chance for change, but getting it set up, with all that is involved with processing and preparing the arrangements, there will be domination by the county council.
The Minister mentioned community boards and a possible role for town councils and other groups in making sure that local interests are brought forward. As he was saying that, it felt a little like the effective retention of a two or even three-tier system. One hopes that that will operate in a way that will not clog up the credibility of the new structures. I will be grateful if he will comment on the role of the community board in practice and on whether there will be any dialogue with parish councils. The rural nature of Buckinghamshire is such that parish councils play a very large and important role, and it would be entirely wrong if that work were to be in any way disturbed.
Finally, it seems odd to read in the statutory instrument that there is no intention to review the new arrangements that are being put forward. Given what I have just said about the difficulties in setting this structure up and the very large changes that are going to come from HS2 driving straight through the county, the new roads that are going to join Oxford and Cambridge and the development of large areas of new housing around Aylesbury and further north, how is it possible to think of this not just in terms of Bucks itself but in relationship to the emerging plans from Oxfordshire, Berkshire, Hertfordshire and other areas, which will have an impact? Increasingly the south end of the county is a commuter belt for London and the changes in Slough and other areas are not taken into account here. I think an attempt is being made to try to re-establish an old vision of what Bucks should be that is not credible in terms of what Bucks will be in future.
I end by drawing attention to the fact that Dame Cheryl Gillan in the other place made many similar points but said at the end, and I agree with her, that this is the time not to break up the proposal but to get behind it and support it. If the noble Baroness, Lady Pidding, were in her place she would say that although there have been some difficulties and considerable arguments within the authorities, she too supports it and hopes that it will do well once it has been established.
Lord Stunell (LD)
My Lords, it is a pleasure to contribute to this short debate on this statutory instrument. I thank the Minister for his introduction, which sketched out the framework very clearly. I think he perhaps oversold the consensus nature of the situation, which the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, highlighted in his contribution. There were court cases, a very anxious local MP and a good deal of controversy in many quarters about the alternative ways of changing the structure in the Buckinghamshire county area. Nevertheless, I think the Secretary of State has produced a sensible compromise between the views put forward by the district councils about how things should be organised in a unitary Buckinghamshire and the proposals that the county council put on the table.
I particularly welcome the choice of three members per ward and a body of 147 members, rather than two per ward as the county council preferred. That is a good decision and I welcome it. What does the Minister envisage will be the total number of councillors for the authority after 2025? He talked about re-warding the county structure as the 2025 elections approach. I have a general concern that every time we do local government reorganisation, one of the underlying consequences is that there are fewer elected representatives serving their community. Even accepting the number provided by the Minister—because of double-hatting, there are perhaps 200 individuals who currently serve on district and county councils at the moment—that will be reduced to 147, which is a 25% reduction in the number of elected representatives. I hope that he will be able to give your Lordships a steer that he is looking for that large council of 147 not to be dramatically shrunk in 2025 to make yet another step backwards in representation. By the way, it is a county whose population is already growing rapidly and, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, made very clear, is set to grow even more rapidly with infrastructure developments over the next decade or so.
That brings me to my second point, which is the role of parish councils in all this. Parish councils in Buckinghamshire feel quite bruised by how things have gone. Seventy-one per cent of parish councillors are reported in the Government’s Explanatory Memorandum as opposing the single authority solution. Therefore, it is important that we have reassurance from the Minister that nothing in this statutory instrument will disadvantage town and parish councils when fulfilling their role as local community champions.
In respect of that, can he say something more about the 19 community boards that are to be set up? Paragraph 7.4 of the Explanatory Memorandum refers to,
“the establishment of nineteen community boards, each with a community hub, enabling local councillors to take decisions on issues such as funding for community groups and local roads maintenance; and providing a single point of contact”.
That is an excellent concept. It is one that Liberal Democrats, when running local authorities, have always felt to be very important. However, it is internal devolution of the budgets and power of the local authority, and much will depend on how those community boards work with or relate to the parishes within their areas and how they develop their external relations with them. What reassurance can the Minister give to those who worry that community boards might be more of a barrier to communities exercising real power and that they will stand between the communities and the decision-makers, rather than turning out to be a conduit for making sure that powers and decisions go down to the local community level?
Notwithstanding the concerns about some of the detail, we will not oppose this statutory instrument this evening. However, we certainly believe that it is important to see that democratic accountability and links with the local community are not worsened by this proposal and that, in fact, the opportunity is taken to improve those links and communications in the future.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in this debate. I will do my best to answer the valid points that have been raised.
Like the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, I appreciated the meeting we had which, as he said, was also attended by the noble Baroness, Lady Pidding, who is not in her place at present. I found it a useful discussion. In that meeting and again today, the noble Lord made some very valid points. He indicated that the message on support is ambiguous. I accept that overall, in terms of personal interventions, there was more support for two unitary authorities than one. But the point I was making, which I think unanswerable, is that there was an overwhelming response in favour of change—in favour of unitarisation. I see that the noble Lord accepts that.
I turn to a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, about democracy in general. He and I have had this discussion previously. As a councillor of great and long standing, he knows very well that in a democracy one has to respond to the people who respond, whether through surveys or votes. He and I would both like more people to participate, as I am sure would all noble Lords in the Chamber.
The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, also raised an issue about the changes that are undoubtedly happening in the country at large, such as with HS2 and housing. Those are certainly important developments but they affect many councils, not only Buckinghamshire. I was not quite sure at one stage whether the noble Lord wanted us to look at this in terms of a larger unit or a smaller one. The support that he seemed to be getting behind was in favour of having two unitary authorities but, looking at it more broadly, some of the housing issues on the Oxford-Cambridge arc would indicate the need for a larger authority.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I am sorry if I did not make myself clear. What I was trying to argue for was a review in the not too distant future. The statutory instrument says that there will be no review, because once this unitary council is established local democracy will take care of any changes, but I think that that misses the point that he has just made: there are substantial changes on the horizon, some of which are happening even today, and it would be sensible to have in mind the thought of thinking again about the overall structure.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
I am grateful for that. The noble Lord did indeed make that point. I was going to come on to look at the issue of the review. I think he has indicated now, although perhaps not as strongly as earlier, that we are looking at the electoral response in terms of a review of arrangements. As he has indicated previously, most of these changes affect other council areas as well as Buckinghamshire, which is the subject of the debate at the moment.
During the course of his very useful contribution, he referred to winners and losers. That is not how we are looking at this. I accept that the breakdown will see nine representatives on the executive from the county council area and eight from elsewhere, but I do not think that that is domination; it is a narrow majority. As I have indicated, there will be an opportunity to replace the leader if there is a desire to do so—so that is there as well.
All the council leaders have indicated—and I am very grateful for this—their strong support for the new arrangements and their desire to get behind them, which, in all fairness, the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, also indicated. That is the way we have to look at this. It is not with unanimous support, but with local government reorganisations it would be strange if it were. It seeks to represent the fact that we need a compromise. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, for indicating his support for the Secretary of State and the sensible compromise. We are trying to work towards a consensus with the three-member wards and the 147 members.
The re-warding that will happen after 2025 will be led by the Boundary Commission. It would be unwise for me to opine on that at this stage, but obviously it will be guided by experience. I share with the noble Lord the general desire that we do not want too few members. We perhaps have to recognise that there is a real job of work to be done here. I have to say that 147 sounds reasonable to me—but, as I say, this will be guided by experience and by the Boundary Commission. Obviously there will be a chance to look at this as things develop.
The noble Lord, Lord Stunell, made some very useful comments. I thank him for them and for his broad support for the measure. I agree with him on the need, as I say, to have a generous number of members—not too few—to represent democracy. I also agree about the important role of the parish councils. I have sought to find out, during the course of the discussions we have had, what is proposed. This will be led by the new authority, of course, but they have indicated that they want community hubs for the 19 areas, and the intention is that they should be represented by community boards for those areas to serve Buckinghamshire towns and villages and enable local councillors to take decisions on very local issues such as funding for community groups, local road maintenance and things that would apply to those particular communities. That is the intention. For example, residents in communities such as Buckingham and Beaconsfield at different ends of the county and in the surrounding areas would be able to look to decisions on local matters being made closer to those communities. The intention is to work closely with public sector providers in those areas as well to try to ensure that there is a genuinely local feel to the way that decisions are reached there.
I turn to the contribution by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy. Again, I thank him for his general support for what we are doing—or at least for the fact that he will not oppose it, as I think he phrased it. He made some very fair points about the strategy. He was concerned that we had something more like a detailed blueprint. That is not the way in which we have been seeking to do this. Things are different in different areas, and the consistent theme running through this is democracy. It would be hard to see some sort of metro mayor operation in Buckinghamshire, for example, although I think it is appropriate for Cambridge and Peterborough. I think the noble Lord would accept that different rules apply to different parts of the country.
He talked—perhaps this is an indication of Labour being somewhat rooted in the past—about the sweet counter at Woolworths. I have news for the noble Lord: that has long since gone. But I accept his general point that there is perhaps a need for a more consistent theme. He will know that we will be making a Statement on devolution in England; we are committed to doing that. That will perhaps be in relation to the metro mayor position. I hope that the noble Lord will take comfort from that.
To come back to democracy, it is worth noting that this proposal came from the area; it did not come from the Government. Obviously we have had a hand in shaping it, but the initial proposal came from the councils of the area itself.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I listened to the Minister explain the position and I am picking up on what my noble friend Lord Kennedy said. Does the Minister accept that we have an area that has perhaps grown up with a particular style of government, and where there has not been much change over the last 30 years or so? There is a danger that by listening to only that voice and considering the representation from only one of the five councils, one is playing to a particular style and approach, and not thinking about the wider context of metropolitan-type counties near London, many of which will have similar problems. The point my noble friend was making was that there is probably a level of perspective above that, which suggests that we need a better template for all that, to make sure those particularities do not dominate a more general case.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
I certainly accept that there is a need to listen to a broad range of opinions. In fairness to local representatives, MPs and councils, I think we have done that in Buckinghamshire. There is not unanimity of opinion; that is a perfectly valid point. I also accept, and this will be reflected when we look at devolution arrangements for England, that there is a need to look at a broad feel for the country and how matters are governed. That is fair, but we also have to recognise that a uniform, monochrome blueprint—I have mixed my metaphors—for councils is undesirable. There is perhaps a way around this that accommodates both.
I am really grateful for the contributions made. I am sure we will take account of these comments. I will seek to update noble Lords on any points I have missed in this very useful debate. I thank them for their contributions and their general support.
Buckinghamshire (Structural Changes) (Modification of the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007) Regulations 2019
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts(5 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)
My Lords, I declare my interest as a long-term resident of Buckinghamshire, although I am not directly involved in any of the bodies listed by the Minister. I have been aware of the debates and discussions that have been ongoing in Buckinghamshire for some time, and am slightly surprised that I am alone in this place as anybody who has direct knowledge of what is happening there. The House is full of Buckinghamshire residents, I am happy to say, many of whom serve in the Government, and I would have thought that one or two of them might have been present to represent their views on this interesting proposition.
If I follow the Minister correctly, there are three columns under which the Government intend to make their decision—first and primarily on whether there is voter engagement and confidence in sufficient support across the population of Buckinghamshire. That is, whether the bodies representative of activity in that county—the LEPs and various other bodies mentioned by the Minister—have supported the issues, particularly those directly funded by and operated through one or more of the councils. There is this rather wonderful phrase “credible geography”, which supports the decisions that are likely to be made.
The Minister has done a very fair job in trying to represent the confusion in this process. He was right to point out—it is worth looking at the Explanatory Memorandum in some detail on this—that there is a great deal of support for unitarisation in Buckinghamshire. I do not dispute that, but there is rather less agreement on what form it should take. He mentioned that the district councils were primarily concerned about there being two unitary councils in Buckinghamshire. I am delighted to see that another resident of that county, the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner of Kimble, has emerged from the dark recesses of your Lordships’ House. He will no doubt support me later—or he may not.
The variety of responses took the same sort of approach—that 87% of representations support unitarisation in principle—but the options were split again. Although it saw more support for single unitary operations, the public sector provider similarly highlights a lot of the difficulties that will arise when unitarisation takes place. On this first leg, I wonder whether there will be any opportunity to reflect further on this. Yes, all the right processes have been gone through, but the results are so disparate in how they line up to solutions that it is difficult to see how the Government can make the decision on the basis of that set of responses.
The second point concerns the process of employment in other involved bodies. I have touched on this slightly in my response to the Government’s first column. The business community—various issues are raised in paragraphs 10.9, 10.10 and 10.11 of the Explanatory Memorandum on this—is not universally in favour of a single unitary structure. I wonder how the Government have drawn that conclusion.
My final point is on the credible geography. The dog that has not barked in this debate is the question of Milton Keynes. In northern Buckinghamshire, Milton Keynes is a burgeoning separate institution with its own governance and practice; with no real logic in a longer-term perspective, it is constantly differentiated from the rest of Buckinghamshire. The town is growing. Under the circumstances in which it was set up, it is an efficient and well-run operation. It has plans for expansion, and has been picked out on many occasions by the Government for sustainable development in the creation of more houses and better communications, particularly as a link on the corridor between Oxford and Cambridge. Despite that, it is completely ignored in this reorganised structure. Would the Minister like to comment on that?
It seems extraordinary that, with such focus on its future growth, such a concentration of people and economic activity is ignored in the structure of the county in which it operates. As for credible geography, it seems absurd to have a county that is long and thin. Journeys from north to south in Buckinghamshire are extraordinarily difficult; I made one this morning and it took me almost an hour and a half to get to the north of the county from where I live in the south. We are talking about ignoring one of the biggest economic operators within it. One need only look at a map with an uncritical eye to see that the south of the county points more towards Windsor and the London fringes. All the communication lines that people use for commuting—it is a commuter area—are centred on and work into the area. Yet the north looks to the Midlands and gets around Milton Keynes in a way that is antipathetic to the way that local government structures will be working.
The Government have obviously decided that they want to take this forward. As the Minister said, there will be a chance to discuss the draft before a final decision is made; perhaps that will be the more appropriate moment at which to look at it. But will there be another opportunity, between now and when this appears in the Chamber, for him to reflect on whether other issues need to be brought into this equation? Is he confident that the earlier pillars of voter engagement and user experience have not been slightly undervalued in the discussions so far, particularly in light of the credible geography issue?
Lord Shipley (LD)
My Lords, it is fairly clear that there are two views in Buckinghamshire on how to establish a unitary structure. It is not for me to support one view or another; that is a matter for the people of Buckinghamshire.
The debate we are about to have will be helpful, but I would first like to pick up a comment made by the Minister when introducing the proposal. It relates to the population figure that should apply for a unitary council. As I recall, he said that if there were two, one would have a population of only 188,000, whereas, normally, a unitary council would be over 300,000. I can think of quite a number of unitary councils that are well under 300,000 and hover around the 180,000 to 200,000 mark. Will he comment on that? Is a new government standard being applied? There is a certain logic to it: 188,000 is a lot of people and may well be deemed a sufficient number.
I noted two things in the Explanatory Memorandum. One is a comment in paragraph 10.11 by the commissioner for children’s services in Buckinghamshire, who,
“indicated a preference for a single unitary as opposed to two unitary councils; and was strongly opposed to ‘any … [local government reorganisation] proposal which would break-up (disaggregate) the existing children’s services structures in Buckinghamshire’”.
That is clearly a professional view of the best structure for that area. There may well be other similar professional views. If so, can the Minister draw our attention to them? We have comments from a number of public services and businesses, but there will be others beyond those.
I also have a concern about the comments made by councillors from town and parish councils. They are,
“particularly concerned about their capacity to take on additional devolved activity in a single unitary arrangement”.
This matters greatly. One thing we have learned from unitarisation in other parts of England is that, when it happens, you need strong town and parish councils to undertake the work that inevitably is devolved from the single unitary authority. These things are not directly to do with me or your Lordships’ House, but, when talking with the town and parish councils in Buckinghamshire, I hope the Government will listen very carefully to all that is said and respond in a way that assists those councillors to do their job in the future.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have participated in the debate on the proposals for unitarisation in Buckinghamshire. I remind noble Lords that a locally led proposal is the background to this—as it should be, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, rightly said. The provisions will run out on 31 March this year, when we will revert to the previous procedures and to legislation brought in under Tony Blair, if I am not mistaken. That would require an invitation from the Secretary of State to amend local government procedures, unless there is unanimity among local authorities, in which case it would not be necessary.
The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, made a point about Milton Keynes. He is right that it is a dog that has not barked and was not part of the locally led proposal. I recognise that Milton Keynes is significant in that area but it was not part of the process. He also made a point about viable geography and the size of a unitary authority. I think this issue has been addressed; indeed, my honourable friend the Minister for Local Government dealt with this issue in the other place and followed it up with a letter that talked about the process. I will make sure that the relevant letter is sent to noble Lords.
Originally, we imagined a population range of between 400,000 and 600,000 people, but subsequently found that this was too high. I am not saying that no ranges are above that figure, but the norm is somewhere around the 300,000 mark I referred to. It is not a hard-and-fast rule, but it is a guiding principle. The size has an effect on the nature and the split of services; indeed, the children’s commissioner gave the view that one unitary authority would be more beneficial than two. That view was reflected in the consultation—not exclusively, I accept, but getting 100% support for proposals is always pretty unlikely in a consultation. There was certainly discontent from the authorities, all of which were not content with the status quo. We have not had representations from local parties saying that the proposals are untenable.
The choice facing my right honourable friend the Secretary of State was between progressing with one unitary authority for the four district authorities or with two. Obviously, a judgment of Solomon must be made. With respect, all the authorities are Conservative-led, so there can be no idea of this move being for political gain; that was not suggested but I want to make the point. The Minister acted in this way after looking at the viable geography and representations made, and trying to work out which proposal presented the best option for local government in the area. He thought that a single unitary authority was that best option.
I do not pretend that this will please everyone; clearly it will not. For example, it will not please the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, which I suggest will not change after I finish speaking and after the regulations have, I hope, been agreed to. As I say, we must look at the considerations I presented, the provision of services and the size of the entity. All are important but there was certainly little or no support for the status quo: 87% of people felt that the status quo was not viable, so the suggestion that this will upset everybody in the area is somewhat far-fetched. The noble Lord also mentioned the deferral of elections. They are being deferred for a year, in line with what all the authorities—district and county councils—asked for.
If I have missed any other points made by noble Lords, as I almost certainly have, I will pick up on them in a letter. Echoing the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, noble Lords will get another bite of the cherry when the order comes forward and we look at some of its provisions in more detail. With that, I commend the regulations to the Committee.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
Given that the Minister welcomed the idea of further debate on the order, is he prepared to meet me and other colleagues from the area to exchange views on some of the deeper issues raised by this?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
It is always a pleasure to meet the noble Lord. I am very happy to do that, but without any promise that it will make any difference.
Paris Climate Change Conference
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts(8 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)
My Lords, I join others in thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, for her skill in securing this timely debate and her felicitous choice of time-slot, which allows us to deal with not only the outturn from COP 21 but what the Government will do to try to resolve that. I also thought her speech was extremely interesting, wide ranging and far seeing. She highlighted a point that a number of noble Lords picked up on—without really noticing, we have moved from regarding green issues as very much a techy subject to something we must all take on board and deal with. I also congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, on an excellent maiden speech. We will all look forward to more contributions on climate change and refugee issues if she is able to speak as she did today.
The title of the debate is indeed about progress on COP 21, but today we have talked mainly about what the Government will do to meet Britain’s climate change commitment. As my noble friend Lord Judd said, we are looking for consistency—in the aspirations achieved in Paris, and in the political reality on the ground. That has been picked up outside. Business leaders, academics and environmental campaigners all believe that recent U-turns on wind, solar and other clean technologies have fatally undermined the UK’s ability to meet the new CO2 targets. Many noble Lords have pointed out that, since the 2015 general election, the Government have cut, delayed and scrapped the Green Deal home improvement fund and the zero-carbon homes policy. They have cut solar and onshore wind subsidies and undermined progress on carbon capture and storage.
It will be obvious to anyone who knows the structure of our Front Bench that this is not my area; I should have started by apologising for the fact that I am neither my noble friend Lord Grantchester, who had commitments up in Liverpool and had to go back, nor my noble friend Lady Jones; I am sure that the whole House will join in sending condolences to her on her recent loss. However, as an outsider watching the politics of this, it is obvious from the debates around COP 21 and the good points made today by a range of speakers across the House that there seems to be a green moment. By that, I mean a short period in which the political calendar will allow a determined Government to sweep through some very far-reaching, game-changing proposals. Does the Minister recognise that, with a good Paris behind him, momentum on his side and support all round Parliament and beyond, there is an open goal? Do his Government have the policies to take advantage of this green moment? Perhaps more importantly, do they have the courage?
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts(12 years, 3 months ago)
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Baroness Browning
My Lords, I, too, support this amendment. My noble friend has exchanged correspondence with me on this matter. I support the points that have been made on the necessity to take into account the ability to obtain legal aid up to the age of 25, particularly for children with special needs. As my noble friend will be aware, the Young People’s Learning Agency, which took over from the Learning and Skills Council, has an obligation to meet the special needs of those who have not attained 25 years of age. Although the agency is being phased out, a general educational obligation will remain unless this Bill closes that gap. As my noble friend knows, if this is not dealt with, the alternative would be to bring cases under the Disability Discrimination Act, which is a very disruptive route for young people and their carers to have to go down. Therefore, I hope that this is just an anomaly and an oversight between two different government departments and that my noble friend will be able to reassure the House today.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I rise to support Amendment 36 and to speak to Amendment 82ZA. The proposals arising from Amendment 36 are useful and we support them. In doing so, I declare an interest as a governor of a BESD school. Given my experience there, I echo the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, about the need to support young people and their parents as they make the transition to adult life.
Our Amendment 82ZA is concerned primarily with the decision of the Government to remove all areas of education law from the scope of legal aid, with the exception of SEN provision, which we welcome but regret that it does not go far enough.
The Ministry of Justice consultation paper says that education cases cannot be accorded the same level of importance as those concerning an,
“immediate threat to life or safety, liberty”,
or protection against homelessness. Yet education is a basic human right and is one of the key children’s rights in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. We now know beyond doubt that without access to an appropriate education, children from poor backgrounds or with SEN are more likely than their peers to end up in the youth justice system and be significantly greater social and financial burdens to the state for the rest of their lives. It is therefore a false economy to cut proper assistance and representation across this sector.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts(12 years, 3 months ago)
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“( ) situations where a person’s financial difficulties could lead to loss of home.”
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I shall also speak to Amendments 82ZC and 82D in the name of my noble friends Lord Bach and Lord Beecham. In so doing, I declare an interest as chair of the Consumer Credit Counselling Service, the country's leading debt advice and solutions charity.
Under the proposals in the Bill all legal aid for debt issues, including advice, is excluded from the scope of legal aid except for legal services provided in relation to a bankruptcy order against individuals under Part IX of the Insolvency Act 1986, where the individual’s estate includes their home. As I understand it, the Government's view is that debt advice is not strictly legal work and that financial matters are a far lesser priority than matters such as homelessness or loss of liberty.
We disagree. All debt problems are underpinned by complex contractual obligations, and debt advisers typically need to advise debtors on issues of liability, consumer credit contracts, creditors’ enforcement powers, statutory debt remedies and enforcement processes within the court system and beyond. While some debt advice may appear to be primarily negotiation over repayment terms and schedules, it is important to note that in fact such negotiations take place within a legal framework such as protections under the Consumer Credit Act. It is also true that the experience of my charity, the CCCS, and others in this field, such as Citizens Advice, is that most if not all of those who contact us for debt advice have other issues, such as illness, employment problems or relationship problems, which have either caused the problem or contributed to it. It is this compounding effect which makes the withdrawal of legal aid for all debt issues seem such a simplistic proposal.
Other areas where we consider that there is a good case for retaining legal aid are the important debtor protections under consumer credit legislation, which allows unfair or mis-sold consumer credit agreements to be legally challenged and ensures that citizens can challenge enforcement actions. However, I mainly want to focus on a clear lacuna that will be left from the withdrawal of legal aid for debt in relation to statutory debt relief remedies. Debt relief orders, or DROs, were introduced by Part 5 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 as a quicker and cheaper alternative to bankruptcy for those with no income and no assets. They require application via an approved intermediary working for organisations which are approved by the Insolvency Service. Approved intermediaries are experienced debt advisers who are often legal aid-funded debt caseworkers.
Lord McNally
No, of course I cannot give that assurance, but neither do I assume the absolute worst case in everything that we discuss, as the noble Lord seems to do in each of his interventions.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Best, for trying to come to my aid. I am sorry that he was not able to continue with that. I am sure that he would have been able to include debt into the case that he was making, skilled orator that he is. However, this is a dialogue and I would like to respond to a few of the points that the Minister made.
We have heard the rhetoric about tough choices a number of times in these debates and no doubt we will hear it again. I wonder whether we might get a second script. Perhaps we could work together on that and enjoy a variation on the theme. We on this side of the House accept that legal aid costs have to go down, and have said so. We understand what the Minister is saying but we think that we have other ways of doing that. However, the same question emerges whichever way you approach this: namely, in saving a cost on an annual basis are the Government providing value for money in the long run? We have severe doubts that that is happening.
As my noble friend Lord Howarth mentioned, debts are increasing although perhaps not quite in the way that he indicated. CCCS, the charity which I chair, receives approximately 500,000 inquiries a year. Our average client owes more than £25,000 to more than eight different lenders. These people have a debt problem. The debts are not necessarily related to housing, to which a different contractual basis often applies, but arise because people overstretch themselves. As I tried to say in my opening address, they also arise because other things happen to these people; for example, they lose their jobs, suffer bereavement or become ill. This is not an easy area to talk about. It is not helpful to be overly simplistic and talk about owner-occupiers whose mortgages are at risk when many of these people will be in rented accommodation. However, the problems arising from losing their homes will be just as bad. I do not see any solution coming forward for those people.
The main point that I was trying to get across in my address concerned the DRO effect. I am afraid that the Minister did not answer the question that I posed: namely, what fee will be necessary to enable this service to be continued? It is presently £90. It seems to me that it will go up to nearer the fee that is charged for a full bankruptcy of £900. What will happen to debt advisers? Will funds be available to keep that generic debt advice going, particularly in the citizens advice area? As we explained, the only reason that the DRO system has continued is that the debt advisers are largely paid for by legal aid funds. If that goes, are we saying that those people who are in severe difficulty with their debts will have to rely on a website, which they probably cannot access because they do not have the necessary equipment, or guidance in leaflets? I do not think that that is a satisfactory solution to what is clearly a very serious problem.
These are very difficult issues that are part of a broader context of social welfare law. We shall probably have to come back to them but in the interim I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.