European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Lord Steel of Aikwood Excerpts

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard) & Committee stage & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 16th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD)]

My Lords, I put my name to this amendment and I remind noble Lords of my interests in that I spend a considerable amount of time in France. I should add that I have health cover in France, so when I speak on health, I do not have an interest in being covered by the UK.

First, I ask the Minister if he still agrees with his noble and learned friend Lord Keen of Elie who, when summing up at Second Reading on Monday, said:

“Reference was made by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, to the status of UK citizens in the EU. However, that is … not a matter of domestic law and is therefore not a matter for the Bill”.—[Official Report, 13/1/20; col. 552.]


The fact is that the Government have chosen not to include in the Bill either the pensions upgrade or anything about health cover; it is a choice. The Bill could encompass the rights of UK citizens should the Government choose or should we, for example, win this amendment. At the moment, it is the Government’s choice to exclude any cover for UK citizens from the Bill, rather than a matter of fact.

Secondly, I want to speak about health. Many UK citizens working abroad in the EU will have health cover by virtue of their occupation or if they are a dependant of somebody in an occupation that qualifies, so they are fine. The problem is for those who are not covered by that either because they have not yet qualified for settled status but hope to—for example, those who have been in a country for less than the qualifying period; in France that would be five years, so perhaps someone has been there for three years not five—or because their financial status is questionable because of low income. What cover from the UK can those UK citizens expect? Some are likely to have ongoing conditions such as cancer and some will develop illnesses between now and the period in which they would qualify, and certainly by the end of December.

Up until now, the S1 provision has dealt with this for a significant number of people; can the Minister say how many people are actually covered by it? If only 1% of UK citizens in the EU are thus adversely affected, that is still 10,000 people with enormous worries about their health cover. For some, this is bound to mean that they will have to return to the UK, where their healthcare will be 100% covered by the NHS. When the Minister replies, could he outline just what provisional arrangements will be in place until the arrangements in whichever EU state those UK nationals are in finally take effect because they have their settled status?

The last point I want to make is that I do not think that, at the moment, the Government have done nearly enough to publicise the fact that UK citizens living in the EU will not be able to access NHS services for free when visiting the UK after this, unless they have a UK-issued S1 form. The problem is that the Government have not done nearly enough to publicise what will happen, country by country. I accept that the embassies have done some outreach work and have embassy pages, but in many cases those are pretty generic and the situation alters very much country by country. Again, at Second Reading, I asked if the Government would provide information on where reciprocal arrangements were in place with the EU states—for example, for qualifications. The Minister made no reference to that in his summing up. The absolute least the Government could do for UK citizens in Europe is to provide a comprehensive country-by-country guide covering all the issues that concern UK citizens abroad.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood (LD)]

My Lords, I have not yet spoken on the Bill, preferring to leave it to the experts —of whom there appears to be quite a lot on these Benches—but I want to speak in support of these two amendments which my noble friends have tabled.

I have a holiday house in Languedoc—not the fashionable part of France. Every time I have gone there during the last three years since the referendum, the people who live and work there, as my noble friends have described, have said to me, “Come on, you’re a Member of Parliament, even in the upper House. Can you tell us what is going on? What are our rights?” I have given them a truthful answer: “I’m sorry. I haven’t a clue and, what is more, neither have the Government”. That is the position we have arrived at today. They have all made the point that during the last three years we have had no fewer than three different Cabinet Ministers responsible for exiting the EU. That was their job, but never, in the whole time of our membership of the European Union, have we ever had a Cabinet Minister whose sole responsibility was to stay within the EU and to make sure it developed in such a way that it improved our relationship with it and that its terms and condition and its new regulations were those that we found acceptable. That was an extraordinary omission that we made during that time.

Some of the people whom I have met are thinking, as one of my noble friends said, taking out French citizenship. If they have lived there for more than five years, they can do that. Another one has found an Irish grandparent and is thinking of taking out Irish citizenship. It is a tragedy that we are possibly losing these people and losing them from the citizenship of our country. It is not desirable at all. A lot of them are aware that I took an active part in the 1975 referendum. I keep pointing out to them that I am sorry because there was a huge difference between the two referenda. In 1975, there were huge public meetings in every town and city in the land; there were huge arguments about our role in Europe, and about the reasons why we were having European unity and the European Economic Community as it then was. This time, it was all about a grubby figure on the side of a bus. It was a very different atmosphere, and one they found very difficult to understand. These people have been treated rather shabbily, and I hope that the Minister, in his reply, will be able to give them some words of comfort.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I shall speak particularly to the pensions aspect of Amendment 37, and I draw the House’s attention to my register of interests. I say to my noble friend on the Front Bench that I understand the dilemma faced by the Government on this issue. There are more than half a million pensioners around the world who have frozen pensions. There has been a sustained and impressive campaign by the International Consortium of British Pensioners to try to persuade the Government to uprate the state pensions of people who live in the 150 countries, of the 200 countries around the world, in which there are not reciprocal arrangements to uprate state pensions and therefore their pensions are frozen. So this issue goes much wider, and I applaud the Government for at least agreeing to uprate the pensions of those citizens who live in the EU, regardless of reciprocation in the meantime. I would encourage my noble friend, and the Government, to consider this in the context of the overall uprating issues for people with frozen pensions around the world. If you live in the US, Mauritius or Jamaica, your British state pension is uprated; if you live in places such as Canada, Australia, the Falkland Islands or Antigua, you do not receive any pensions uprating.

The important issues here are, first, to look at it in the context of the overall policy. That is why I understand the Government’s position in not having committed to uprating at this point. Secondly, it should be borne in mind that these EU citizens—at the very least, those who already live abroad or are over pension age—will have made a decision to relocate on the understanding that their pension would be uprated. They could not possibly imagine a position in which it would not. I hope that the Government, in their future negotiations on and considerations of this issue, will bear that in mind, but I understand the position that my noble friend on the Front Bench is in.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Whitty (Lab)]

My Lords, I had not intended to speak on this amendment: indeed, I did not speak at Second Reading and have concentrated in my own amendments on some fairly technocratic issues. However, my noble friend Lord Teverson—or, rather, the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, who on occasion is my friend—has provoked me. One reason I did not speak at Second Reading is that I now recognise that Brexit is going to happen on 31 January and I am feeling emotionally negative about it. I shall not be joining any celebrations, even if they raise the money for Big Ben to bong.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

Does the noble Lord agree that the slogan, “Get Brexit Done” is completely wrong? What is happening on 31 January is that we will get Brexit started.

[Lord Whitty]

That is absolutely true and I believe that it is gradually being realised by large sections of British society, business and individuals. Nevertheless, 31 January is a symbolic date in that we leave the political institutions of Europe, and that upsets me as it does the noble Lord, Lord Steel. I was very positive in the 1975 referendum, although my party was of a rather different view, and I have remained a committed European since. Sometimes I got fed up with Europe, but one of the issues referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, that of EU citizenship, is making me seriously emotional because it concerns my grandchildren.

My grandchildren were born into European citizenship. They are too young to have voted in referenda or general elections, but we are depriving them of all the benefits of European citizenship that the noble Lord spelled out. There must be a way of their being able to reassert their birthright at some future date, through arrangements between ourselves and the institutions of the European Union. I therefore very much support the intent of the noble Lord’s amendment. How it is actually worked out has yet to be made clear to me, but I hope that Ministers will at least take on board that, whatever view we took of Brexit, we are depriving some people of rights through a decision over which they had no say. That is one of the things I will be thinking about on 31 January, and it could be resolved in the long term by future arrangements between ourselves and the European Union.