Ukraine

Lord Spicer Excerpts

Tuesday 18th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

My Lords, I imagine the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, is not a relation of the sergeant who got back at the end of the charge of the Light Brigade and asked his commanding officer, “Same again, Sir?”.

I shall be very brief. The West’s response to the outrageous annexation of Crimea by Russia has been twofold. The first has been to suggest—in fact now, to implement—some punishments, including the removal of trade in certain goods and today we have had mention of the closing down of some negotiations that have been going on on military matters between the West and the former Soviet Union. Secondly, there has been the call for more negotiations. I shall spend a bit of time on the negotiations point without further ado.

However, I want to mention one anecdote about the punishments. I was in Saint Petersburg two or three months ago, and I bumped into a British admiral who was rather irate, which admirals are allowed to be. I discovered why he was irate. He was the commander of the NATO naval force and was there with other NATO officers to negotiate a deal on British and NATO help with saving submarines, because the Russians had that disaster a few years before and we have the technology to help with saving submarines. On his arrival that day, he had been called by, I think, Putin’s office, but certainly by a very high person in the Russian Government, to say that the meeting was off. I am not quite sure who was punishing whom at that point because it was Putin’s office that closed down that negotiation. I pass that on as an anecdote.

On negotiations, clearly it is true that jaw-jaw is better than war-war, but what the noble Lord, Lord Solely, said is also true: unless it is done very sensitively and astutely, it could simply open up a Pandora’s box of further Russian activity. It is true that one does not have to believe in “peace in our time” to know that negotiations can be dangerous. If one is always on the back foot in negotiations and is always responding to the other side in a negative way, it can look defeatist and send wrong signals to rogue states, such as North Korea, Iran and so on. So there is a problem here.

I shall suggest one way in which we can overcome these problems and the difficulties we have in negotiations. Clearly, if we are going to negotiate, we want to do it properly. There are two principles in negotiation that need to be stuck with. The first is that we must be realistic. We have to accept that certain countries are within the Russian sphere of influence, and Ukraine is one of those countries. It is a buffer between the West and the East. We cannot describe it any other way. It is a divided country, and Crimea, as has already been said in this debate, has on the whole been part of Russia. These are facts of life that we have to accept in any negotiations. We have to be realistic.

The second, and much the most important, point is that we have to be on the front foot in these negotiations. We cannot just respond to other people’s actions and proposals; we have to have our own proposals. This is extremely important, because otherwise we will always be on the back foot and will be defeatist and retreating backwards from other people’s propositions.

One of the really interesting things about the debate so far is that a number of proposals have come forward. There is my noble friend Lord Howell’s proposal for a democratic and stable Government in Kiev. There is another proposal for trying to get some stability in Crimea. My own view, for what it is worth, is that we will have to have a much more devolved Ukraine. I cannot see how the present Ukraine can carry on in a stable way. It has got to be more devolved and possibly even split. The West is going to have to take a view about this. It will be terribly important for those Governments to have a view in order to sit down and negotiate. We cannot just go in hoping for something to come out of the negotiations and retreat backwards the whole time in the way that has largely been the case up to now.

I say strongly to our Front Bench that it must work out what we want out of these negotiations. There have been all sorts of suggestions coming out of this debate, which has been very fruitful. I hope that the Government will start taking up some of these views and coming forward with their own propositions in these negotiations so that we are not on the back foot, looking defeatist and having the kind of repercussions that the noble Lord, Lord Solely, wisely warned the House could come about.

North Korea

Lord Spicer Excerpts

Tuesday 18th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

This question comes up on a number of occasions in relation to North Korea; indeed, it was a question that I answered only last week in relation to the BBC’s role and editorial independence in commissioning services. Article 19 has to be interpreted in the light of Article 2 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. The covenant gives the UK an obligation in relation to UK nationals, so our obligation is to our nationals, not to North Korean nationals. The BBC question is under review, but it is a question for the BBC.

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend accept that there is a strong read across between what the West does over the Ukraine and the leverage it carries in North Korea?

Ukraine

Lord Spicer Excerpts

Tuesday 4th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

I thank my noble friend for her words of support and for the specific issues that she raised. The Foreign Secretary made it clear in the other place earlier today that, all over the world, there are situations where individual communities in areas of a country feel that they have a right to self-determination. That is right within the parameters of the constitution of a country; indeed, this Parliament has passed legislation allowing parts of a country to have a referendum in relation to their future. However, we are talking here about a completely different situation, which to some extent takes away from what may have been planned for the future of Ukraine, and for Crimea as part of it. This is the violation of the territorial integrity of a sovereign nation and it is therefore important that, at this stage, we keep pressing to make sure that Russia recognises and respects that. It should certainly adhere to the statements that were made in the many conversations held between the Prime Minister and President Putin only last week, and between the Foreign Secretary and Foreign Minister Lavrov.

In relation to the second specific issue which my noble friend raised about safe passage, I am not sure what the particular situation is on the ground right now and what the strength of concern is in relation to the safety of those troops. However, I will certainly make sure that those words are fed back into any discussions that may take place on Thursday.

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

My Lords, while accepting all that, it is the case that moralising alone is not going to work in these circumstances. Will my noble friend at least consider the reality of the situation—if it is the reality—that Ukraine splits naturally into two parts, and should it not be allowed to do so? That worked in Czechoslovakia and may have to work in this country, if Scotland votes the wrong way.

[Baroness Warsi]

I hear what my noble friend says, but I am not entirely sure that this is the kind of discussion that we should be having at the Dispatch Box at this time.

European Union (Referendum) Bill

Lord Spicer Excerpts

Friday 24th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

It depends on where you are starting from. It is not an easy position, but if the position of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, is that he wants to get us out anyway and we should not bother with renegotiation, that is fine. Why not? However, the Conservative Party’s position, as clearly explained in the Prime Minister’s Bloomberg speech—in which, by the way, he was speaking explicitly as leader of the Conservative Party, not as Prime Minister—was that he hoped to renegotiate a different relationship with Europe, put it to a referendum and recommend that we stay in the European Union. I am just saying that that timetable does not work. It does not add up.

At Second Reading, a lot of noble Lords commented on the date. A lot of noble Lords made the point—better than I am making it—of the unwisdom of locking the negotiators’ feet in concrete and putting them under time pressure. That is not a wise idea. The noble Baroness, Lady Falkner of Margravine, said the date was arbitrarily picked out of the air. We have not been told in this debate why it has to be 2017, other than that was the date in the Bloomberg speech.

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

The noble Lord makes some very interesting points but are they not rather academic in view of the votes that have now taken place and that the House to some extent has already passed wrecking amendments?

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Spicer]

That is the likelihood. This House has been so careful of the interests of the British public against the shenanigans of the other place that it is going to deny them any voice at all.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

Nothing in this amendment in any way affects the first line of this Bill that says that there shall be a referendum. This amendment concerns only whether it is wise to set in the Bill the end date by which time the referendum must have been held. That is my sole point. I have heard no rationale for the 2017 date. I look forward to the explanation of his rationale from the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs. It will not be sufficient for me to hear that the Prime Minister said in the Bloomberg speech that it would be by the end of 2017. He said the first half of the Parliament. That would not be a sufficient rationale for me because it was not put in advance through the political process and raised in Parliament and is not, as I understand it, government policy. It is the policy of the Conservative Party, just as the Bloomberg speech was the policy of the Conservative Party. If we have to have a date in the Bill and it has to be the end of 2017, please tell us why. I can think of only one reason and I am not of a suspicious mind. If you wanted a referendum to produce the result that the UK leaves the European Union, you could not pick a better time. You are saying that the Government must bring their renegotiation to a head in what must be, because of the French and German elections, absolutely the worst year to do it. You are saying that they have to try to cut corners and accelerate the timetable, which the European Union will want to follow. You are maximising the chances that they lose friends, fail to influence people and do not get the renegotiation objectives they have in mind—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Spicer]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, but I am worried that he is getting so carried away that he might hit his neighbour in the face. I can see that from here but he probably cannot.

[Lord Kinnock]

That is the last thing I would do to my noble friend Lady Quin. I would never take on a Geordie lass in that or any respect. I am very grateful to the noble Lord for permitting me what I hope is a courteous way to conclude my speech.

I sincerely hope that the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, thinks in these practical terms because he is sincere in his objective, but if we in this House are not to make fools of ourselves we simply cannot allow, on a gigantic issue of this kind, a deadline to be set for the conclusion of immensely complex negotiations that will affect the destiny of our country.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

My Lords,

“Half a league, half a league,

Half a league onward,

All in the valley of Death

Rode the six hundred”.

—or 158, I think.

I have great respect for the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, and the Earl of Cardigan was not responsible for the loss of the Light Brigade, although he was the commander. Missing was the Earl of Lucan—he is in Davos, I think—and the Earl of Raglan, the commanders of the Army. It has been a very gallant charge and it was probably the case that halfway down the valley of death, the Earl of Cardigan turned to the chap on his left and said, “We have made a lot of very good progress today”.

It is very difficult to answer this debate, because I am supposed to deal with the objections to my amendment; I am still waiting. The most interesting suggestion, which I am rather inclined to follow, was in the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Higgins. Act I of the play was quite nasty, with a lot of talk about people misbehaving—hijacking was a word used from the Front Bench—and plotting. In my view, that was not worthy of the House. Act I is over. As the noble Lords, Lord Higgins, Lord Cormack and Lord Deben pointed out, we are now in Act II and our job is to try to turn the Bill, which a lot of us think is a rather bad Bill, into a good Bill. We need to amend and improve it.

I do not know why the date is here. I thought that I had argued, with a degree of support from around the House, that it does not make sense, because the renegotiation cannot be completed. The noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, says that we could change the date, but we would need a darn good reason. I thought that we had given two hours and 10 minutes of darn good reasons. However, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, is right: in Act II one ought to try to be a bit co-operative. There is a point knocking around here which I have not quite grasped. It is not the point of the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, about distrust, but the point of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, about an enforceable undertaking. Although I do not agree with that point, one needs to think about it because it seems a solid point.

The provision does not need the date of 2017; I am not even sure that it needs a date. Perhaps it should be something about “the term of the next Parliament”, and it may be that an amendment could emerge from the Earl of Raglan and be voiced by the Earl of Cardigan. The question that the noble Lord keeps asking us—if not then, when?—is a question that we are entitled to ask him.

[Lord Spicer]

The noble Lord talks about Act II. How long is he going to go on with these acts—until Act X? Will he give a date for that, and will that be somewhere in the middle of summer?

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

My amendment would remove any date. That seems clean and surgical and would leave the options open to the Government of the day. However, I accept that it does not meet the point of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern. It would still be a Bill to have a referendum, and Clause 1(1) would still say, “There shall be a referendum”. The noble and learned Lord believes that there ought to be some time factor in there and he may be right. I do not know, but I am inclined to act now, on the advice of the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, and withdraw my amendment at this stage, while asking the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, to consult with his friends and the commanding officers when they come back. If there is no satisfactory amendment proposed by the proposers of the Bill, I will revert to Amendment 10 on Report.

European Union (Referendum) Bill

Lord Spicer Excerpts

Friday 10th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

My Lords, I begin with a confession. I have form on this matter as one of those who opposed the Maastricht treaty when it came before the House of Commons. It is always a bad thing to say that one was right or that I told you so, so I will not do that, but I will say that what was clear in those days has become a fact of life in many cases now.

Take for instance the linkage between fiscal policy and monetary policy, which is absolutely clear after the events of last year. It is quite clear that if you have a monetary union, you have to have a fiscal union as well. If you transfer your tax policy, your expenditure policy and your monetary policy to another institution, you have at the very least created a circumstance of constitutional change for which a referendum is highly appropriate. That is in the context of something irrevocable, not changeable, being written into the treaty and therefore for ever—that is the key issue about Parliament having given up its sovereignty: a successor Parliament will not have the powers because the previous Parliament has given them away.

That has been put forward as a situation which would be created by the Bill. Actually, it has already been written down in a treaty which we have signed. We have already signed away the power of Parliament to keep sovereignty for itself. The two eminent former Permanent Secretaries raised that as an issue about the Bill. They were fighting each other, by the way—I do not know if anyone else noticed—because the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, was saying that it is a bad thing because we were binding another Parliament, and the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, said that it was a bad thing because we were not. Leaving that aside, it has been done already. We are already giving away powers to control the economy and we are doing it for ever. If that is not something which requires a referendum, I do not know what is.

There is one remaining question: does this apply to Britain? Is Britain, because of its opt-out, perhaps the only country which does not need a referendum? It might be argued that all the other countries need referendums and we do not. The answer to that, in my view, concerns something I asked a Question about yesterday: the acquis communautaire. That is endemic to the treaty of Rome. It is stated clearly throughout the treaty that any change in the treaty must be in one direction, towards European statehood. That is absolutely clear. It is written in there and it will, incidentally, sweep Britain along with it in a great tidal wave.

That is the answer, by the way, to the “Waiting for Godot” people who say that we must wait for some great event to take place in Europe before we have a referendum. A dynamo already exists in the system, and if I was keen on preserving a move towards a federal state of Europe I would just leave things alone as it is all there already. It is a very strong argument, they usually say, for us to wait for some great event to happen before we have the referendum. They are absolutely wrong about that—but right in their own terms because a federal state of Europe is what they want. If you do not want that then at some point the British people will have to be consulted. That time should, in my view, be here as quick as possible, but the Bill is certainly a step in that direction.

EU: Balance of Competences Review

Lord Spicer Excerpts

Thursday 9th January 2014 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Spicer]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what options for change they have so far identified in respect of the United Kingdom’s relationship with the European Union as a result of their balance of competences review; and when they intend to announce their plans for any such change.

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con)]

My Lords, the balance of competences review provides an informed and objective analysis of what EU membership means for the UK and our national interests. It draws on contributions from a wide spectrum of interested parties, detailing where the EU helps and where it hinders, and it provides a valuable contribution to our national debate. It does not examine alternatives to EU membership and is not tasked with making new policy recommendations.

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

Does my noble friend the Minister agree that, when it comes to negotiating the repatriation of powers, an essential first step will be to rework the acquis communautaire throughout the treaty of Rome?

[Baroness Warsi]

This is an issue that my noble friend has raised in the past. I think that he will take great comfort from the fact that legislation has been passed to ensure that no further powers pass to the European Union without the say-so of the British people. I think that he will also take great comfort from the fact that, wherever the opportunity has arisen, this Government and this Prime Minister have chosen to try to win back those powers. I am sure that he will also be supportive of the Bill that will come before your Lordships’ House tomorrow in terms of giving the people a right to decide on our future relationship with the EU.

EU: UK Balance of Trade

Lord Spicer Excerpts

Wednesday 14th November 2012 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Spicer]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their estimate of the United Kingdom’s balance of trade with the European Union, once shipments in transit through the ports of Antwerp and Rotterdam to non-European Union destinations are excluded.

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, in 2011 the UK’s trade in goods with the EU was in deficit by around £43 billion, while in relation to services UK trade was in surplus by around £16 billion, so the overall deficit was around £28 billion. I am unable to provide data excluding shipments in and out of Antwerp because under international guidelines firms are required only to state the final destinations of the goods they are exporting. Asking businesses to collect the detail of the journeys that goods take en route to their final destinations would significantly increase administrative burdens and hence push up costs.

[Lord Spicer]

That Answer confirms the fact that this country runs a trade deficit with the continent of Europe. To that extent, our membership of the European Union is of greater value to it than it is to us. Will that not considerably strengthen our bargaining position when we come to renegotiate the treaty of Rome?

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, I think that there are a number of assumptions in my noble friend’s question. I know that he has devoted many years to this subject, but there is an assumption that trade deficits are in themselves bad. We run trade deficits with some countries and trade surpluses with others. Running trade deficits and trade surpluses is the basis of free markets. I am sure that my noble friend would support that. On negotiations, I would say that there are many benefits to being a member of the European Union, so simply to assess the strength of that relationship on the basis of our trade figures is not the correct way forward.

EU: Repatriation of Powers

Lord Spicer Excerpts

Tuesday 14th December 2010 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Spicer]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government which powers they are seeking to repatriate from the European Union.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, our priority has been the European Union Bill, but we have begun initial work on the balance of the EU’s existing competences and what they mean for Britain. This complements our ongoing activity with the Commission to reform the EU institutions. All this work needs to be undertaken before we can determine the way forward, but we are also taking some action now. We will want to limit the application of the working time directive in the UK and we are deciding whether to opt into legislation on criminal justice on a case-by-case basis with a view to maximising our security, protecting our civil liberties and preserving the integrity of our criminal justice system.

[Lord Spicer]

Does my noble friend agree that, so long as the acquis is at the centre of the European treaties, it will be impossible to repatriate any powers?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, the acquis obviously embodies an accumulation of powers. We are now in the 21st century and I suppose that we would all wish to see, if I may use a domestic analogy, a bit more localism in the management of our affairs. However, we are reviewing the situation. The work is at a fairly early stage and I cannot make any further detailed comments on that matter now.