Agriculture: Carbon Emissions

Lord Spicer Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, clearly we endorse the greenhouse gas plan by industry, but we are looking at further ways in which we can improve it. In fact, we have commissioned research from Scotland’s Rural College into greenhouse gas mitigation options to address what we think are existing knowledge gaps. Certainly we are working and commissioning on how best we can reduce emissions from agriculture, which produces about 10% of our emissions.

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

My Lords, if and when we sign a trade agreement with the United States, is it not likely that food prices will fall and environmental concerns relating to standards will rise?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the basis of precision farming in this country is that we think we produce excellent food—the best in the world—both for home consumption and for export. Whatever trade agreements we have with any countries, clearly we have our own standards, which will remain. I think that people should buy British products because they are the best.

Inshore Fisheries

Lord Spicer Excerpts

Monday 3rd July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I remember replying to the debate on that very interesting report, but I am afraid I cannot remember the precise details. I know that it featured the phrase “the requirement for co-operation”, which is clearly important; that it said we need to fish sustainably, which is also important; and that the sub-committee saw that there were opportunities for the domestic fishing industry. I remember the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and the sub-committee giving us a very helpful and important report, which has and continues to have considerable consideration by the department.

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

My Lords, is not the noble Lord, Lord West, with whom I often agree on many matters, arguing that the Royal Navy is out of control on fishing protection? Surely, that cannot be right.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

We rely very much on the Royal Navy and I am pleased to acknowledge what it does, and has done over centuries, to help us with the protection of fisheries. It is very important that we work with the Royal Navy, Border Force and a number of other agencies, including the National Crime Agency, so that we not only have a sustainable and successful fishing industry but we co-operate, which we must do, with our partners in Europe so that we have robust and clear negotiations.

Flood Defences

Lord Spicer Excerpts

Thursday 1st December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I understand what the Lord said. The whole purpose of Flood Re is precisely to give householders—53,000 home insurance policies are now backed by Flood Re—the benefit of affordable insurance, but I am grateful to the noble Lord for his comments.

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

My Lords—

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Spicer]

My Lords, is it possible that we waste a lot of money on flood defence systems? Especially around rivers, you do not abolish flood-water by spending money on defences but simply push it on elsewhere. In my former constituency, I did wonders for Upton upon Severn and ruined the lives of people in Tewkesbury.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the whole of the taxpayer’s financing of this is predicated on receiving the best value we possibly can. Perhaps under the natural capital programme, with the further £15 million following on for schemes such as those in Pickering, Holnicote and Upper Derwent, we can have whole catchment systems on rivers such as those my noble friend mentioned, whereby we engineer the use of natural capital.

Japanese Knotweed

Lord Spicer Excerpts

Monday 7th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I am all for raising money for local charities but, ideally, I would much prefer to have our native species than this invasive species, which is harming our natural environment.

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

Is the Minister aware that our noble friend Lady Sharples is somewhat of a patron saint among gardeners for her sustained attack on Japanese knotweed and for telling Ministers to get knotted every so often when they give excuses?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I know that my noble friend is tenacious and persistent. I very much hope she will continue to keep Defra and me on our guard, making sure that we do all the things, such as the Check, Clean, Dry and Be Plant Wise campaigns, that we need to make ourselves ever more biosecure.

Deregulation Bill

Lord Spicer Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

I thank the Minister for giving way. The problem with this is that we have been hearing it for 40 years. I was chairman of something called the Spicer committee 40 years ago, which comprised the National Farmers’ Union, the Government and a whole lot of other bodies. We came up then with what we thought were solutions to try to make it easier for the applicant. Forty years later, we are still in the same position and still being told roughly the same stuff by the Government. This is why it is so difficult to believe what is coming out now.

Water Bill

Lord Spicer Excerpts

Thursday 6th February 2014 Lords Chamber

On the one hand, more information provided to the company by the owners of premises would help that recovery; on the other, Amendment 122 would create greater powers for Ofwat to prod the companies to recover their debt and so also help the cash flow of those companies. Therefore the problem of debt would be diminished. I beg to move.

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

My Lords, I ask the noble Lord whether his amendment covers the reverse—a situation where a customer is owed money through, for example, a standing order. If at the end of the year a customer has not accumulated the same amount of expenses as the standing order, is that covered by the amendment?

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, this is an issue, particularly for metered customers who have an estimated bill, for both companies and the residential sector. However, my amendment does not cover that. If the noble Lord wishes to bring forward an amendment, I am sure that the Government would look on it with favour.

[Lord Spicer]

The noble Lord’s amendment covers the question of debt being carried through the regulatory system of prices. Therefore, does it not affect the reverse: namely, credit?

[Lord Whitty]

Both the Minister and I will need notice of that question.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Spicer]

My Lords, I am inspired by my noble friend Lord Crickhowell, who said that his worry was that there is a process of intervention, greater control and centralisation taking place on a wider scale, of which the water industry may be part. I do not know much about the water industry, but I do know about the electricity industry—I declare an interest as chair of the trade association for the electricity industry—as I was the Minister who took the electricity privatisation Bill through Parliament some 20 years ago. In that industry, there is certainly increasing intervention by Government and by the regulator. There is a definite trend. What happens eventually we will have to see, but I suspect the same thing is going on with water.

Therefore, my slight reservation with my noble friend’s amendment is whether it would make the process of regulation more efficient, more centralised and more bureaucratic or whether, in some way, it would do the reverse. I hope that it would do the reverse, because that is what we want to see. If she could address that point, it would be very helpful to me in judging what is going on.

[Lord Moynihan]

My Lords, briefly, I support the amendment proposed, although again I anticipate that the Minister is not going to be able to accept it. I would like to echo the comments made by my noble friend Lord Selborne about the briefing notes, which have been outstandingly helpful. In a latter edition, there was a very helpful road map which draws together some of these key issues. In the spirit of being helpful to my noble friend on the Front Bench, if the Minister is not in a position to accept the amendment on the face of the Bill, I hope that he will encourage his officials to give prominence to that road map on the website, and therefore in part meet the suggestion in my noble friend’s amendment.

My second point is that this is a matter of wider significance in Government. I hope that the Minister agrees that this is a subject that the Cabinet Office should look at carefully, not just in the context of water but in the wider context of the utilities. There is a necessity for clarity for those who do not spend many hours sitting on your Lordships’ Benches going through the detail of these Bills but who nevertheless have an equal, if not a greater, interest in the key elements of the legislation before Parliament.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for tabling these amendments. As noble Lords know, the noble Lord introduced the Water Act 2003 to Parliament, which made the planning processes a statutory requirement. We recognise that he seeks to ensure that the water resources management framework has greater bite and that the relevant plans will have the desired effect. I hope to show him that these plans are supported by other policy measures.

Water resources management plans must show how incumbent water companies intend to maintain a sustainable water supply demand balance over a period of at least 25 years, as the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said. They must do this within the framework of environmental protection that is set out in legislation. The noble Lord seems to be concerned that they may not have that necessary effect.

Within this context, new Section 37A allows the Secretary of State to issue directions to the incumbent water companies on any relevant matter for which they must plan. In addition to this, water resources management planning guidance sets out the expectations of government and the regulators in relation to the water environment—for example, that the options chosen must not lead to any deterioration in the status of the water environment.

The companies have their own statutory environmental duties. For example, when exercising their functions, companies must have regard to the environmental sites protected by the habitats regulations. They must also have regard to the Environment Agency’s relevant river basin management plans. In addition, both the Environment Agency and Natural England are statutory consultees on the draft plans, and the Environment Agency provides the Secretary of State with technical advice on the plans. Following consultation on the plans, the Secretary of State has power to direct an incumbent water company to change its plan if he is not satisfied—

[Lord Spicer]

I am most grateful to my noble friend for giving way. Is she not a little concerned that all this is renationalisation by the back door? One is constantly finding additional powers being given to the regulator, and the current big excuse is the environment. Exactly the same thing is happening in electricity—carbon considerations are resulting in more and more powers being given to the regulator, and it is now happening in respect of all the companies’ plans. Is there not a slight worry, particularly if the Government can move in with policy insistence, that we are renationalising the industry by the back door?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, Amendment 134 and the other two amendments in this group deal with the issue of collective consumer rights. We are now into the consumer field. The water industry or service has pretty standard terms. Tariffs, whether by volume in the metered sector, or by rateable value in the non-metered sector, are pretty standard. Charging schemes and means of payment are also usually pretty standard. The nature of the service—the supply of water—is fairly straightforward. However, there are wider services in terms of advice, and emergency services when a customer is cut off or there are leakages. If something goes wrong on all these fronts, more than one consumer is likely to be affected.

The Bill introduces a degree of choice, but only in a relatively limited field. It leads to the possibility of switching, but in general people will be faced with standard terms and a standard service. Failure to provide the service or the misallocation of costs or mis-selling of prices is likely to affect a significant number of people. However, the consumer rights in this field and the procedures which are written into this and more general legislation are almost entirely written in terms of individuals.

Amendment 134 allows group complaints. If a whole village complains about the way its water has been cut off, the complaint would not need to be dealt with property by property. If a whole tranche of customers feels aggrieved by the prices they are being charged or the overcharging of prices, the amendment allows them all, either on an opt-in or opt-out basis, to bring complaints. The noble Lord, Lord Spicer, raised an example a few minutes ago in relation to the overcharging of people who have agreed to pay by direct debit in advance on a metered tariff.

The Government have recently introduced the Consumer Rights Bill in the other place. That legislation does something that I have been advocating for a considerable time—it introduces a degree of collective rights and collective redress generally across the consumer field. However, it only relates to abuse of competition law; it does not relate to mis-selling or unfair contract terms. But it is at least a start. I have argued on most Bills, whether on banking services, the energy industry or more generally, that we should have more collective provision in terms of enforcement rights. That should also be recognised in this legislation as regards water.

Amendments 134 and 135 provide the basis for dealing with such a complaint in the first instance and for redress to be granted on a collective basis. In other words, everybody who suffers from unfair treatment should be allowed to have equivalent redress, however many pounds that would be in compensation. Noble Lords will be aware of how this has got out of hand in another sector, where every PPI claim has had to be pursued by individuals or claims companies. We know the effects of that. Had the complainants woken up to this a lot earlier, they could have proposed a collective redress system. This is less likely to arise in water because it is a less complex industry, but, by definition, that means that where it does go wrong more people are likely to be involved. It is therefore important that this is written into the Bill.

My third amendment in this group deals with the Consumer Council for Water, whose role is written into various parts of the Bill and preceding legislation, but not in the context of being consulted on water charging systems. The 1991 Act preceded the creation of CCWater—which was created by the 2003 Act—and provided a number of consumer rights or protections. Most subsequent legislation has adjusted to the fact that CCWater now exists, but not in relation to the provisions on charging schemes. I am therefore suggesting, in Amendment 136, that CCW should be specifically consulted on charging schemes. The amendment would correct the omission.

It is important that we upgrade the ability of consumers in this field, which is still a regionally monopolistic one. Where there is monopoly, there is often abuse of consumers; the possibilities are there in this field, and sometimes they are a reality. I therefore think we should provide both for a role for CCWater and for consumers in general to be able to act on a collective basis. I beg to move.

[Lord Spicer]

My Lords, this is pretty standard stuff: first you legislate to weaken competition, which is the true protector of the consumer; then you legislate for consumer rights. That way lies socialism.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, perhaps I could seek clarification about the effect of the amendment, which it seems concerns individual complaints as well as collective ones. As I see it, having been in business, complaints are normally dealt with by the business or authority to which they come. You do not want to have special schemes unless there is something pretty serious and bad. I want to understand the purport of this amendment—if it is actually bringing in a whole load of new things that are going to be done by an authority or statute rather than by the company that is meant to be doing the right thing for the consumer, I am concerned.