ISIS: British People

Lord Soley Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, different countries have different approaches. I am aware of what they are doing. Where the noble Lord talks about being innocent until proven guilty, I assume that he means people who have gone to Syria to fight. He is right to say that these people should be brought to justice, and that is why we are having conversations with our international partners to look at the best method to work this out in an internationally agreed way.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

My Lords, is there not a real danger both of orphaned children and of adults, if we allow them, being recruited again and retrained either by ISIL or other groups; being given false papers, as they would be; and being able to travel to other countries in the world, including the United Kingdom, to carry out terrorist acts? This is not just a humanitarian issue; it is also one of the security of this and every other country. We need to do something fast.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I agree about the dangers of the recruitment of children and the dangers of them being left. I hope that I made clear in my response to the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, some of the things we are trying to do to ensure that children who are British citizens are returned home safely. We absolutely recognise the real danger and that is why urgent conversations are going on, some of which I simply cannot discuss at the Dispatch Box.

British Citizenship: Children

Lord Soley Excerpts

Wednesday 10th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I share my noble friend’s concerns about children who find themselves, in many cases through no fault of their own, in Syria. She is absolutely right to point out that there is no consular access, which is why the FCO advises against all travel to Syria. There is humanitarian protection out there in the region—it is not an ideal place for a child to be—and the UK has provided £40 million towards that protection in Syria. I would be very happy to meet with my noble friend, and I am grateful for the meeting I had with her and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham to discuss this matter previously.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

I wrote to the Minister about this some time ago. My concern is not just the humanitarian side, which is very important, but also security. The longer those children and their mothers are in those camps in eastern Syria, the more likely they are to be brought back into ISIL. I appreciate that action has to be international and not just by the UK, but this is both a humanitarian issue for the children and a security issue for the UK and other countries.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord raises two very vital points about the whole crisis in Syria, both the humanitarian issue and the security issue of anyone who might come back to this country after engaging in activity out there. This is, of course, of international concern, as the caliphate disintegrates. As international partners, we must all discuss with each other what the best way forward is. In the humanitarian area, the UK is providing, as I said, a lot of assistance.

Brexit: Proposed UK–EU Security Treaty (European Union Committee Report)

Lord Soley Excerpts

Wednesday 16th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

My Lords, this report is of immense importance. It is hard to overstate its importance to the safety and security of the people of the United Kingdom and throughout the European Union—and possibly more widely as well. The way in which we have participated in this process has been of great value to Europe and the UK. Europol director Rob Wainwright has been mentioned a number of times, but I also mention the staff who work for us over there generally. I have been as a delegate to the home affairs and justice committee of the European Parliament, chaired by Claude Moraes, a British MEP who will, of course, no longer be there as an MEP after we leave. The noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, did a great deal of work in this area when he was a Member of the European Parliament. In other words—to summarise some of the comments already made—the British have made an extraordinary contribution to the security and safety of Europe and Britain.

The lack of preparation for leaving and dealing with security has troubled me. I have raised it a number of times in this House and am by no means the only one to have done so. What troubled me most was that it was very obvious soon after the referendum in 2016 that we were going to lose the ability to exercise our rights under the European arrest warrant. The European arrest warrant is of immense value to Britain. It enables us to hand over criminals to other countries in the European Union and them to hand criminals back to Britain. That will no longer be possible when we become a third country, not least because some countries, notably Germany, have in their constitutions that they cannot automatically deport to a third country without a legal agreement.

When we heard that the Government recognised the need for a UK-EU security committee, we recognised that that was important. The evidence that the committee—chaired so ably, as usual, by the noble Lord, Lord Jay—took throughout revealed to us just how much value was placed on our work. Rob Wainwright has already retired; other people from the United Kingdom will go; we will lose the chairman of the home affairs group, as I have said; and now we have to draw up a security agreement that will work. I welcome the words in the political declaration indicating that we seek,

“an ambitious and comprehensive future security relationship … law enforcement and judicial cooperation in criminal matters”,

but that understates the difficulty. To draw up those agreements will not be quick. I make the point, which I have made before, that, particularly given events in the House of Commons yesterday, it is very important that we start thinking about this political declaration and how we move forward on some of its contents to avoid some of the traps we will fall into when we find that we can no longer get our hands on serious criminals, including terrorists, who operate in Europe and back here. If people knew the backgrounds of some of the criminals and terrorists who have been picked up or stopped from carrying out their actions as a result of the work we have done, they would be very alarmed—and they would be right to be.

So I echo the question to the Minister from the noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, who asked if the Government are preparing ad hoc arrangements to fill this gap. I am not sure how those ad hoc arrangements can work, because I am not sure how Germany will be able to deal with its constitutional issues, but it is profoundly important. I emphasise that the evidence given to us across the board was profoundly important. When I was in a couple of meetings of the European home affairs and justice committee chaired by Claude Moraes, a number of people said, “Don’t leave; we need your experience and knowledge”. People do not understand the extent of it, but it is profoundly important.

This report is very important. We cannot solve the problem quickly; I understand that. But if we work on the political declaration, we might make progress. The committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Jay, is very ably served by the staff of the House of Lords. When I went to Europe and attended a number of these meetings, I saw that the reports from this House are valued. People refer to them when they speak. It is very significant. We will lose that; that is almost inevitable now. So I echo the noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, in saying that the Government need to get real about security and come up with some ad hoc and other arrangements that will, at least to some extent, fill the very large hole we are about to leave in the security arrangements of the UK and the EU.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I hope noble Lords will forgive me; I talked about the political agreement as it stands. I am talking about this at a certain point in time—with cognisance of what is happening in another place—so I am talking about the Government’s hopes and aspirations. We have conducted the debate so far in an utterly civilised manner, which is refreshing, so I hope that the noble Lord will accept this in that context.

[Lord Soley]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but she needs to follow up on the “ad hoc” bit. In her answer to the point from the noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, I originally understood her to say that the Government were looking at an ad-hoc arrangement on the European arrest warrant, yet she now seems to be saying something different. Maybe she needs to take this away and come back on it. This is very important because the European arrest warrant is not something we can do quickly.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

If the noble Lord will indulge me, I will talk about the European arrest warrant when I answer points raised by noble Lords. Perhaps that will clarify it; if it does not, I will come back to noble Lords in writing.

The noble Lords, Lord Jay and Lord West, and my noble friend Lord Kirkhope all talked about data. I made the point earlier about the huge data flows that come from the UK across to the EU. I absolutely accept the point and share their view on the importance of continued data sharing following our withdrawal from the EU. The EU, with the UK and its member states, has established unrivalled mechanisms for the exchange of law enforcement data on a daily basis, as the noble Lord, Lord West, pointed out. Our operational partners have made clear to this and other Select Committees how crucial this data is in our efforts to fight cross-border crime and prevent terrorism.

On the UK securing an agreement on data protection with the EU, we start from a position of trust in each other’s standards and regulatory alignment on data protection. The Data Protection Act 2018—which the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and I were involved in—and the adoption of the general data protection regulation strengthened UK data protection standards. I can quite safely say that we often surpass what is required of EU states. We were also one of the first countries to successfully implement the law enforcement directive. This provides a unique starting point for an extensive agreement on the exchange of personal data that builds on the existing adequacy framework. We believe that the EU’s adequacy framework provides the right starting point for the arrangements that the UK and the EU should agree on data protection, and the political declaration notes that the adequacy decision will form the basis of future data transfers between the UK and the EU. It also outlines that the Commission is committed to starting this assessment as soon as possible after exit day, with the intention to have a decision in place by the end of 2020; that commitment is relevant to the committee’s concerns about the sequencing of negotiations on data and security.

The committee and the noble Lord, Lord Jay, also reiterated the concern about the cliff edge and there being no mechanism in the draft withdrawal agreement for extending the implementation period. Both the UK and the EU agree that the implementation period has to be time limited, and the legal text sets an end date of 31 December 2020. However, the withdrawal agreement now also includes the possibility to extend the implementation period by mutual agreement of the parties. The committee highlighted the possibility of a security cliff edge, whether at the end of March or at the end of the implementation period. As the House would expect, the continued safety and security of both UK and EU citizens remains our top priority. This is why we are preparing for all eventualities, including the no-deal scenario that we are all seeking to avoid.

As part of our planning for such a scenario, we are preparing to move co-operation to alternative, non-EU mechanisms which we already use for co-operating with many non-EU countries. Broadly speaking, this would mean more use of Interpol, Council of Europe conventions and other forms of co-operation with European partners, such as bilateral channels. They are tried and tested avenues, so we are in a slightly different position in this area compared to those areas in which we are having to put in place new and unprecedented arrangements. We are none the less clear that these contingency arrangements will not be like-for-like replacements of the EU tools and would result in a reduction of mutual capability.

Brexit: Europol

Lord Soley Excerpts

Tuesday 11th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I agree with my noble friend that the words “and beyond” are important. During the implementation period, we will be able to participate in existing EU JHA tools and measures. But, beyond that, we will separately seek to agree ongoing co-operation through future security partnerships. To that end, we have proposed a new coherent and legally binding agreement on internal security that protects mutually beneficial aspects of co-operation in this area and ensures that both the UK and the EU can continue to tackle fast-evolving security threats.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

The Government acknowledged in the withdrawal document that the European arrest warrant would no longer be available to the United Kingdom after 29 March next year. That means that people wanted for serious crimes, up to and including terrorism, will no longer be accessible by the UK, and vice versa for some European countries. What action do the Government intend to take to ensure that we can get people wanted for serious offences back here to the UK and, for the reverse procedure, to the countries that need them?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that this facility continues to operate. To that end, the Commission has been very clear that it wants to continue co-operation on internal security, including extradition and Europol. I also point out that, at the recent press conference on 31 August, Michel Barnier recognised the progress in our discussions on security. Our focus now should be on trying to define an ambitious partnership.

Economy: Productivity

Lord Soley Excerpts

Thursday 28th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

First, I pay tribute to the work that my noble friend has done consistently to promote family as a key part of our society. We know the devastating effects that family breakdown can have on people’s health, well-being and educational opportunities. We have not conducted any piece of work in that specific area, but it is certainly something that I am prepared to look at and discuss with him further.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

Why do the Government think that productivity is lower in the service sector than the manufacturing sector?

[Lord Bates]

It is a very interesting point. There is an excellent book that a long queue of people were trying to access in the Library by a certain Jonathan Haskel—he may be known to the noble Lord—called Capitalism without Capital. In it, he unpacks that we have not really invested enough in intangible assets, such as R&D, patents and intellectual capital within firms. He thinks that there is more to be done. It is a very live, very important, crucial debate that we have to have as a country. That is the reason for the review, the reason for the strategy and the reason we have £31 billion in the fund.

Royal Bank of Scotland

Lord Soley Excerpts

Tuesday 5th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

This is the fourth time we have undertaken this approach. We did it twice with Lloyds, and this is the second time with RBS. The last time this was done in 2015, the National Audit Office concluded that that sale of shares in RBS,

“was executed as skilfully as could reasonably be expected, and on the basis of the preparation, process and proceeds of the transaction, UKFI”—

now UKGI—

“achieved value for money”.

That was what it looked at, and it will have to justify that advice; others will look at this as well, and we will keep it under review.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

My Lords, it seems that the Government are implying that the bank is going to do better, and I agree with that. If you look at the FT today, there are a lot of reasons for thinking that. However, if it is, it begins to look increasingly as if the Government are taking a wodge of money now because they have financial difficulties in the current public expenditure round rather than waiting to get the best price for the taxpayer.

[Lord Bates]

We have set on this process of doing precisely this. The proceeds of the sale yesterday will go directly to reduce the debt which was accumulated as a result of the actions in 2008. That is what it will be used for, and quite rightly.

Police: Undercover Officers

Lord Soley Excerpts

Wednesday 21st March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend is absolutely right—of course, it protects the safety of those people as well.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

Will the Minister also confirm that this is not just a matter of rules and regulations? If it went on for so long, there must have been a serious management failure, because the relationship between a senior officer and the person doing the job is crucial in terms of keeping a check on their behaviour. That seems to me—as an outsider—not to have happened, and it is what we ought to focus on.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I would not like to speak for the chair of the inquiry, but I am sure that some of the institutional failures that happened way back in the day will be looked at.

Syria: Protection of Civilians in Afrin

Lord Soley Excerpts

Tuesday 13th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

My noble friend is right to point to the complexity of the situation that we face there. He invites me to make the case for Turkey. I do not particularly want to do that but, by way of explanation, it would take a different view of the linkages between the PYD and the YPG to the PKK, the Kurdish terrorist organisation that is proscribed both in the UK and in Turkey. Turkey sees the links there. From that perspective, it also has to be said that Turkey is host to the largest number of refugees from Syria of any country—some 3 million—and all accounts are that the way in which it looks after those refugees is exemplary. We can explore those issues, but we certainly do not believe that there is a justification for this. That is why we have called for the de-escalation, and we will encourage all other NATO allies to do the same.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will have a lot of sympathy because we all recognise the complexity of this and the frustration that we have at the failure of international policy, not least because of the policies of Russia over recent years—a point I have made before. But there is a different issue, which my noble friend Lord Collins raised, about the policy regarding the Kurdish situation and Turkey. It has always been a concern that Turkey, as a close NATO ally, as has been pointed out, has an ongoing problem with the Kurds. It is certainly not helping itself by what it is doing now; it will make it far worse to solve. I ask the Minister again, as my noble friend Lord Collins did: are the Government trying to get a policy on the relationship between Turkey and the Kurds? It is not for us to intervene, but it is for us to say that the problem with the Kurdish minority in Turkey will be made infinitely worse by what is happening now in Syria.

[Lord Bates]

As I said, we do not draw the parallel that the Turkish Government does between the PYD and the YPG. We believe that they have been courageous fighters against Daesh and have been very effective in that role. We do not recognise the links. Those points have been made. We have made the point that the battle against Daesh, which is crucial for stability in the region, is far from won and that this is a diversion of essential resource from that effort. This might not directly answer the point the noble Lord raised, but in the current context it is probably as far as I am able to go.

Financial Services: Regulation

Lord Soley Excerpts

Wednesday 6th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

I respect the knowledge the noble Earl has in this area but there are differences in the way that the regulation is funded in different jurisdictions. I come back to the point that we need to look at how regulation is applied effectively on those who are at highest risk and recognise those who are at lowest risk. The FCA has a statutory duty to establish and consult a small business practitioners’ panel on policies impacting on small and medium-sized enterprises, and I think that is the right way forward.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

The Minister will know that the European Banking Authority, currently located in London, has a duty to maintain financial stability and ensure the integrity of the system. That authority will go after Brexit. What thinking have the Government done on whether we should seek equivalence or strike out on our own on a further strand of regulation?

[Lord Bates]

All those matters are being dealt with through the repeal Bill which is going through the other place, but we have made it very clear that financial services are extremely important to this country. Access is extremely important. We want to be able to continue to offer the UK’s world-beating export of financial services to the eurozone area and around the world after exiting the European Union.

Syria

Lord Soley Excerpts

Monday 8th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, my noble friend absolutely puts the focus on Assad. Assad and his regime have got it in their hands to stop bombing their own people. If there is to be a political solution, it is incumbent on everyone to come around to the talks and ensure that we get a positive outcome that enables peace to take place.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

My Lords, I noted with great pleasure the Government’s achievements the other day at the conference. However, I am deeply disturbed by the Russian bombing at the moment, which seems to have two clear aims—one to keep Assad in power and the other to drive thousands of new refugees towards Turkey, with all that that implies. Have there been any discussions with the Russians about that? Are the Russians giving any money to this fund?

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, on the latter point, I shall have to write to the noble Lord; I cannot give him an answer right now. On his point around the Russians needing to do more, it is absolutely right that they need to do more to meet their obligations under international law. As a member of the UN Security Council and the International Syria Support Group, Russia needs to step up and put pressure on Assad. What I hope will happen when my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary goes to Munich on Thursday is that those are the conversations that will take place.