Brexit

Lord Soley Excerpts

Monday 25th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, whose views I have known for some time; I agree with very many of them, and he gives this matter great thought. I agree with him absolutely that this is a real political and economic crisis for the United Kingdom.

I ask Members to bear in mind that those of us on the European Union Select Committees meet representatives of European countries on this issue. A few weeks ago, I was in Bucharest, Romania, which currently holds the presidency of the European Union, to talk about Europol and the future of the security relationship; that includes, of course, the relationship between the EU and the UK. The general feeling there is one of wanting the British to stay but recognising that it has gone beyond that, for many of the reasons set out by the noble Lord, Lord Bridges. What they want now is for us to make a decision and move on, and to start building a relationship between the EU and the UK, which we all know will be necessary.

This Sunday, I am going again to Bucharest, together with my noble friend Lord Whitty, where we will be speaking about the future of the European Union. Interestingly, we will be there not just as observers but as participants. But I ask Members to bear in mind that, when I go to such meetings, for the first time in my political career it is very difficult for me to answer questions about what is happening in the British political system—a system they have always assumed was among the best and most stable in the world. I can only reply, as I do at times, that we have not quite cracked it yet; I then like to tell them that that is a classic example of British understatement. It is terribly difficult to talk to Europeans about where we are in this country.

The reality is that the country is divided, the political parties are divided and organisations are divided, but we have to follow the referendum—a referendum which should never have been held, frankly. Britain works best when it has representative democracy; it has worked really well for this country for several hundred years and we forgo it at our peril. Tragically, what one never does is hold a referendum without knowing what you will do if you do not get the result you want. That is why we are in the mess we are in today.

It is with some sadness I say that the other issue to be addressed is this: as a number of noble Lords have said, we are debating this partly because of the state of the Tory party. I do not normally go around calling on Ministers or Prime Ministers to resign for the hell of it—there is not much future in that. But the present Prime Minister has lost control. I was brought up politically on the idea of Cabinet responsibility and unity. There is no Cabinet unity—arguably, there is no Cabinet. That is a terrible state for Parliament and Britain to be in. We have to crack that problem.

Over time, I have come to the conclusion that we need to accept this withdrawal agreement and to do so fairly soon. But there are caveats to that. It has always been my view—not just in recent years but for a long time—that the British public were supportive of a European common market but never very supportive of the European state. In other words, the British public tended to see it as a supermarket, not a superstate. That has been the problem that runs through the core of British thinking. It explains the power of the Brexiteers’ strapline, “Take back control”. It was about not just immigration but a variety of things: making our own laws, being able to sack the Government and so on. That difference has never been resolved among the British public in the way it was in Europe, which had a far greater need for political unity because of the horror of two world wars, defeat, occupation and having borders changed by force.

Where do we go from here? I urge—as far as I am able to these days, which is not so much in the other place—that the withdrawal agreement must go through. Probably the best way of doing it is that put forward by Tom Watson MP, my colleague in the House of Commons. We have the withdrawal agreement and we must get it through soon, and then—I say this very reluctantly and regretfully—we probably have to have some sort of referendum at the end of it. I do not want that—as I have said, I do not like referendums—but I am not sure how you avoid the trap otherwise.

We need to face the fact that the British public are so deeply divided. The divisions are not just between parties and organisations, or business and trade unions; there is division within families. Young people in particular are arguing to stay in, and the older generation is arguing to get out. This is of such importance and we cannot go on like this much longer.

I suggest there is a case for the Prime Minister to step aside so that we can have a more conciliatory approach from a new Prime Minister. I would love to see a Government of national unity for a time, to get us out of the hole we are in. Believe me, if you talk to people abroad about this, they cannot understand what has happened to Britain. It is tragic.

I end with a plug for the report we have just produced in the European Union Select Committee, called Beyond Brexit; noble Lords might find its subtitle slightly facetious: How to Win Friends and Influence People. We will certainly need to do that. We had so many friends and supporters throughout the European Union until this business happened. Now, we have very few. They want us to go but they want a good relationship, and they wish we had not decided to go in the first place.

In both Houses, we have a duty to try to get this moving. We must accept the withdrawal agreement and then start working on the political declaration. Had we started on that two years ago, it would have formed the basis of a realistic and proper relationship between the UK and the EU. That is still a possibility but we are coming to it very late. However, we need to do it and we need to do it fast.

Brexit: Withdrawal Agreement Scrutiny

Lord Soley Excerpts

Wednesday 31st October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

We are of course fully committed to facilitating the work of the committees. The Secretary of State has made 10 parliamentary appearances in the nine sitting weeks since his appointment. Deputy Ministers have given evidence on over 40 occasions to a range of committees, and I know that the Secretary of State has appeared once in front of the noble Lord’s committee and has committed to appearing again when we have a deal and something to report back on.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, has just said, there is acute anger in this House and in the other House about members of Select Committees—I am a member of two of them—getting less information than Members of the European Parliament are getting from Mr Barnier. Why is it that, when we are supposed to be taking back control, there is this affront to the British Parliament, where we get less information than Members of the European Parliament?

[Lord Callanan]

I understand the noble Lord’s point, but I am not sure that he is correct. We published extensive details on the withdrawal agreement in March. The chapters on citizens’ rights and on the financial settlement have been published, and the details of the implementation period have been published—so I do not think that the European Parliament has access to any more information than this Parliament does. But obviously nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, and the danger of publishing some aspects, particularly with regard to the implementation period, is that they are already being re-discussed in the negotiations. But we will share as much information as possible, and extensive amounts have already been published. We have appeared in front of numerous committees and we will do so again once we have a final agreement.

Brexit: UK-EU Relations (EUC Report)

Lord Soley Excerpts

Monday 2nd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord. He chairs the Home Affairs Sub-Committee on Brexit, of which I am a member, and one of the things we have focused on recently is security, which is so important here.

The report is absolutely delightful to read—I agree with almost every word. Every now and then I look at the speeches made by Monsieur Barnier or by the Secretary of State David Davis, and I noticed that they flag up areas of agreement and say that there is more agreement than we sometimes recognise or is recognised in the media. I hope that they are right. If at some stage in the very near future they suddenly produce, with a flourish, an association agreement, nobody will be more delighted than me. But if they do not, and we run into difficulties at the Cabinet meeting at the weekend, which we might well do because of the infighting at the moment, we will be in deep trouble.

When I started reading this document, one phrase, which we all need to bear in mind, caught my eye almost immediately. It says in the fourth paragraph of the summary:

“We note the European Parliament’s advocacy of a UK-EU Association Agreement, and suggest that UK commitment to such a dynamic and evolutionary partnership could bring a positive change in the tone and language of the negotiations”.


I agree. Two of the key words there are “dynamic” and “evolutionary”. One of the things that will not happen is that we will end up with a number of set and rigid parts of an agreement which will be hard to change as the relationship between the EU and the UK develops. It almost certainly has to be flexible and dynamic. I therefore welcome that and think it is a great use of language. The committee also says that the use of red lines by both sides—it is both sides—is disastrous in trying to get to a solution. I understand how important it is for both sides to say that they will not accept certain changes in the run-up to the hard side of the negotiations. But at the end of the day, those red lines on both sides have to be breached. There cannot be an agreement without some degree of breaching. It might be marginal, but there will be breaches, and if there are not, there will not be an agreement.

Ever since the referendum—the result did not surprise me that much, although I voted remain—I have felt that the key to understanding this is to understand that the United Kingdom needs the European Union and the European Union needs the United Kingdom. That is not just for the financial, economic and trade reasons, which of course we spend a lot of time on, but it is also, as the noble Lord, Lord Risby, mentioned, about security, defence and the political impact this will have on British and European Union influence around the world. It has damaged both of us in terms of political influence. I worry about that, and if the European Union looks as though it is fracturing and the United Kingdom is getting more distant from the European Union, the only winner in that situation will be Mr Putin; he will be delighted, because that is part of Russian foreign policy. We need each other.

I was delighted again at the suggestion of a joint UK-EU parliamentary group, which I suggested in this Chamber immediately after the referendum, and for which I got support from all sides of the House. We have to do that. We cannot do it yet, because the agreement has not been made, but when it is ready, I hope that we will rapidly set up a high-powered UK-EU parliamentary group. Again, we will need that degree of interaction between the two parties to make it work.

We will need joint institutions—I have gone on for some time about how they will be necessary. If we are to get agreement on security, on policing and the security exchanges in general, as I hope we will, but there is an idea that we cannot have institutions that constantly examine changes in UK and EU law and the way they affect the exchange of information about intelligence, policing and crime, we will have a rather rigid system which will not be flexible enough to meet the demands of the occasion. We have to build flexibility into this, and that is why I was so pleased to see reference to a “dynamic and evolutionary” partnership—a phrase used several times in the report. That is what we need.

I do not want to speak for too long, so I shall conclude my remarks with this final point. If, as I said, the Government come up with an association agreement that covers the many points that we are all nervous about, nobody will be more delighted than me. It really will be good news. Maybe that is what David Davis and Michel Barnier are talking about when they say that the agreement is about more than is immediately apparent. However, if there is not such an agreement, we will be in deep trouble, and it will be deep trouble not just for the UK but for the European Union. I say to the Government that if they are in that situation and if, after the Cabinet meeting, there are still divisions that prevent us getting an effective and good agreement between the EU and the UK, they will need to step outside party-political lines and reach across the Chamber. They need to talk to people like my right honourable friend Keir Starmer and to my noble friend Lady Hayter on the Front Bench here, who has done so much. They have good knowledge of the situation.

The Minister might smile but this is not about the Conservative Party and the divisions within it. I understand that; there are divisions in the Labour Party too, as well as throughout the country. When a country is deeply divided like this, a politician with good judgment will step outside that and put the needs of the country before the needs of his or her own political party. If the situation is as bad as some people suggest, the Government need to make that gesture and move. If they fail to do so, frankly both the EU and the UK will be greatly diminished, not only in our eyes but in the eyes of the world. My belief is that in the longer term the European Union will have one advantage from the United Kingdom leaving, and that is the fact that the United Kingdom has always been a drag anchor on further political union within the EU. My guess is that over time some key countries in the European Union will move further and faster on political union. I say “Good” to that. It is in our interests that they do so and we should encourage and support it. However, let us not pretend that somehow or other this will not have a profound effect on the United Kingdom.

EU Exit Negotiations

Lord Soley Excerpts

Monday 13th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

My Lords, we cannot have a withdrawal Bill until we have a withdrawal agreement, so the date of the Bill will depend on when we can make a withdrawal agreement. As to the noble Lord’s second question, I cannot speak for what our partners expect us to want to do.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

The Minister said we had given many concessions to the European Union. He is right, we have, but that is because we went into this ill-prepared and without a strategy. Listening him, it is very hard to be convinced that we have a strategy even now, because I cannot see how this process will lead to a successful outcome for the United Kingdom unless we are much clearer about money and the transition arrangements.

[Lord Callanan]

I think we have made excellent progress on all those issues so far in the negotiation. We have made very generous offers on the three issues the EU said it wanted to talk about first: Ireland, citizens’ rights and the budget. We are waiting for our partners to reciprocate with the generous proposal we have made.

Brexit: Financial Settlement

Lord Soley Excerpts

Thursday 12th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

The noble and learned Lord makes a vital point, and I certainly hope that it might.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

My Lords, I was in Brussels this week and I heard welcome for the Florence speech, but does the Minister accept that this is not just a matter of the figures—that comes in the longer term—but a question of process. Where I and others are worried is that the British Government do not seem to be clear about a willingness to go on sorting out the bills between both parties over a series of years, which will go beyond 2019.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, we have made it clear that we understand that some of the discussions about our future relationship will involve continuing investment in projects across Europe. Clearly, the initial discussions about the withdrawal agreement are focusing on those areas where there are identifiable obligations. It is important that we move on to the next stage about our future relationship because, as the noble Lord has just pointed out, there will be continuing commitments that we may indeed wish to make.

UK and EU Relations

Lord Soley Excerpts

Tuesday 12th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

My Lords, I have never liked referendums, not least because they rarely solve disputed problems in political parties. But if you have a referendum, the golden rule is to have a strategy for what to do if you win and a strategy for what to do if you lose. The tragedy is that the Government at the time—David Cameron’s Government—had a strategy for winning but not a strategy for losing. We are now paying the price for that.

The issue is important because, before the referendum, Europe had been a divisive issue in Britain but the referendum has deepened that division. That is one reason why, although I voted remain, I do not think we can go back in any time soon, and I do not think any attempts should be made to reverse that referendum decision because all you will do is aggravate the divisions in the country. The divisions in the Tory party are serious, particularly in the House of Commons, where the party is divided much like it was over the corn laws in the 19th century. The problem for the Labour Party is rather different. It is much more to do with the divisions in our voters: working-class voters largely voted for Brexit while middle-class voters tended to vote remain. In other words, both the country and the two main political parties have divisions which make it difficult to come up with a proper structure.

One of the things I welcome, particularly in these position papers, is at last the Government saying that they want a good and positive relationship with the European Union. I wish that had been said more loudly and clearly at first, and that some of the more insulting comments that were made about the European Union had not been made; we are paying a high price for that. We now have to concentrate on how we deliver that better relationship, because we are all saying that, and these papers say it loud and clear. That is good, but the problem is in achieving that outcome.

One thing that troubles me about the papers is their relative vagueness. I understand that we are still, despite the time limit, at a relatively early stage of negotiations. It will not be the first time that the European Union has pushed negotiations up to the wire, and then made decisions at the last moment. That happens; we have done the same, and it is not a unique experience by one party. To get there, so much detailed work has to be done—much of which is being spelled out in this debate today—that we really have to work on this very hard if we are not to run into major problems. I would like to know from the Government how much we see equivalence on some of these areas of difficulty being a stepping stone on the way forward.

Look at the paper on the exchange of personal information and data, an important area for Britain. We are a world leader in many respects; we are also one of the countries that sets the standard in Europe. But somehow we are going to have to maintain that data protection standard at the same time as we are pulling out of the European Union, so we will probably need some form of equivalence system to make sure that the EU and the UK stay in step. Ultimately data protection will be something we need throughout the world to trade in increasingly complex areas, and we will need that relationship with Europe to do it in the rest of the world as well.

If we have to have an equivalence agreement—and I can see the logic of that and suspect the Government are looking at it—then you also have to have enforcement and dispute resolution, and that brings me to the other paper. The Government have turned their face against the European court, I understand that, but in the paper on the European court they say they will need international agreements on some of these things. That might be one way forward. We will have to come up with international agreements with the European Union without acting as a foreign power towards it as a power. That means we will need much more of that spelled out and will have to look at ways of getting international agreements which have the force of law without necessarily using the European court or the British courts, but just using conventional international law. That will apply to a number of these papers.

The last thing I wanted to mention—and I would have liked to have talked about it in much more detail but the document came out only today—is the foreign policy and defence issue. My noble friend Lord Judd mentioned this; one of the big problems for Britain is that for years Britain has been a drag anchor on the European Union. The Europeans really did see this as a political union; the British saw it as an economic union. I have put it before, in simple terms: the Europeans saw it as a political state; the British saw it as a supermarket. That role has made it very difficult for us to be seen as one of the strong members of the European Union. Very largely, we have been seen as a drag anchor. It remains my view that it is in Britain’s interest to see greater political union in Europe. Those who argue for the European Union breaking up are making a serious mistake. We need only to look at the history of it to see how wrong that can be.

We have a lot of work to do on this. If we are to use equivalence in a number of these areas, we have to come up with some method of dispute resolution, either via the courts or by setting up agreements of some type. It is on that that I want to hear more from the Government.

Brexit: United Kingdom-European Union Parliamentary Assembly

Lord Soley Excerpts

Wednesday 12th July 2017 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Soley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, as part of their Brexit negotiations, they intend to propose the formation of a United Kingdom–European Union joint parliamentary assembly.

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)]

My Lords, European parliamentary rules of procedure state that joint parliamentary committees can be created only with countries that have an association agreement with the EU or pre-accession member states. While the United Kingdom is a member of the European Union, the Government therefore have no plans to create an assembly. Parliament should continue to engage through existing channels. Once we have left the EU, it will be for Parliament to consider how it wishes to engage.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

I am grateful for that Answer, and I am aware of the problem at the European Parliament end. I think that everyone agrees that, following Brexit, the EU and the UK will need a very close and strong relationship both politically and economically. In that respect, it would be very useful for everyone for the EU and UK Parliaments to have a close relationship—not dissimilar to the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, which was set up with a grant of £1.5 million from the Treasury. That is a useful model. Do the Government support such an approach?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes a very important point. Who could but wish that after we leave the European Union, we are able to continue the strength of our relationship with our colleagues across Europe at not only governmental but parliamentary level? The noble Lord referred to the British-Irish assembly. The House may wish to know that that assembly and three other parliamentary groups—the CPA UK, the British Group of the Inter-Parliamentary Union and the British-American Parliamentary Group—are funded by a grant from the two Houses. The funding which had been provided by Her Majesty’s Government was transferred to Parliament some years ago, so it is clearly a matter for Parliament, and I think that a lot of voices here might beat a path to the door of the relevant authorities.

The Process for Triggering Article 50

Lord Soley Excerpts

Tuesday 24th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I think the noble Lord answers the question himself by asking whether I would like to hazard a guess. I do not like guessing at the Dispatch Box.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

I welcome the clarity of the court’s decision, which is good and desirable, but should not have been necessary because, just as the Minister says that the rule of law is very important, so too is the supremacy of Parliament. That made the first application to court unnecessary, in my view. I go to what I think is a crucial issue. Recently, the Prime Minister and one or two other Ministers have been making the point that the end product must be a very close partnership between the UK and EU. What has troubled me throughout this process has been people talking as if that is of minor importance. We do not know how these negotiations will pan out, but I know that if the EU and the UK do not have a close partnership economically and politically, the only people who will benefit are those who do not want the European Union to succeed and are not friends of the United Kingdom.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

The noble Lord makes a good point which I endorse and echo. Let me repeat what I said at the Dispatch Box last week and the Prime Minister said in her speech. It is absolutely in our interests, as the noble Lord has implied, that we continue to see a strong, stable and prosperous European Union, and that we continue to collaborate closely and co-operate wherever possible. The intent behind the approach the Prime Minister set out in is to form a new partnership along those lines. It is therefore not in our interests to see instability across Europe nor to see Europe, in the words of the noble Lord, falling apart in some way.

A New Partnership with the EU

Lord Soley Excerpts

Tuesday 17th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I very much hope so. It is an end to having no running commentary, and we can now have a debate on a number of the substantial matters that the Prime Minister set out with such clarity today.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

My Lords, I regret to say that we have concluded that repeated Statement and it is time to hear from my noble friend.

Brexit

Lord Soley Excerpts

Thursday 3rd November 2016 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Soley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact on their negotiations with the European Union on Brexit and the United Kingdom’s future relationship with the European Union of the pursuit by other European Union member states of ever-closer union.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Bridges of Headley) (Con)]

My Lords, the future direction of the EU is a matter for its remaining members, but we intend to co-operate and collaborate on matters of mutual interest once we leave the EU. We do not see Brexit as ending our relationship with the EU; it is about starting a new one that is dynamic and constructive.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

Perhaps this morning’s developments indicate how fast moving and difficult it is to predict the direction that these negotiations and discussions will take. I am increasingly concerned about this talk of hard and soft Brexit when crucially, regardless of what happens with the court decision at the end of the day, what matters is that Parliament is involved in trying to work out a good arrangement—good for the United Kingdom and good for the European Union. Many of those members will continue to move towards ever-closer union. We must be sensitive to that, and I hope that the Minister will confirm that.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, absolutely, and I thank the noble Lord for giving me the opportunity to say this. As my ministerial colleagues have said, while we are leaving the EU, we are certainly not going to turn our backs on Europe. I share the noble Lord’s concern about the use of language. The Prime Minister has made it very clear that we are not adopting an off-the-shelf approach; we are looking for a bespoke approach. We want a relationship that will reflect mature, co-operative arrangements in the future, with close friends and allies with whom we have been partners for a number of years and with whom we continue to face common challenges. Once we have left the EU, those common challenges will remain, and it will be utterly in our national interest to look to see how we can continue to co-operate with our European partners once we have left.