Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016

Debate between Lord Snape and Viscount Ridley

Tuesday 10th May 2016 Grand Committee

[Viscount Ridley]

My Lords, I will be brief because I know that other noble Lords are waiting to start the next debate. I am most grateful to all those who have spoken in the debate: my noble friends Lord Brabazon, Lord Callanan and Lord Cathcart; the noble Lords, Lord Stoddart, Lord Hunt and Lord Snape; the noble Earl, Lord Erroll; and my noble friend Lord Prior. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Snape, that he looks in extremely good shape. He did not get the advice he was looking for about his health and I am not medically qualified, but he looks fine to me.

[Lord Snape]

I apologise for interrupting, but what are his medical qualifications in reassuring me?

[Viscount Ridley]

I withdraw the advice.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, and the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, that we need to change the vocabulary in this area. Indeed, I myself now use the phrase vaping device rather than e-cigarette whenever possible because it makes more sense and it is a shorter term. I was also fascinated to recall when listening to the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, how one kept awake on motorways before Red Bull was invented. I did not realise that cigarettes had that effect. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has put his finger on it. There is still a real issue of public confusion, which we have seen reflected in recent opinion polls. Over the past couple of years, people’s suspicions about these products have increased because of the misinformation in the studies that were cited by others. The issue of harm is a tricky one to get across to the public because you cannot say that vaping is absolutely safe or that it is good for you. Vaping devices are certainly good for smokers, but in absolute terms they are not good. However, that is not the point. The point is relative harm and harm reduction.

I had originally wanted to put down a regret Motion to express stronger dissatisfaction with the directive and the way it is being brought into law, but the best chance of getting a debate before the end of the Session was through a take note Motion. I am sure that the Grand Committee wants to take note. Perhaps I may make a couple of other brief points. My noble friend Lord Brabazon mentioned that smoking is very regressive at the moment: it bears down much more heavily in terms of cost and suffering on poorer people than richer people. It is no longer an equal opportunity killer, if I can put it that way.

I am most grateful to my noble friend the Minister for the very different tone in his response from that of his predecessor, when we first debated this matter some two years ago in this Room, and for his unequivocal statement that it is a good thing for smokers to take up vaping. I was also encouraged to hear him make the point, and I will press him on it as we go forward, that although the directive prevents advertising, it does not prevent public information campaigns to get the point across to smokers. With that, and the promise of Italian light-style implementation, I beg to move.

Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill

Debate between Lord Snape and Viscount Ridley

Monday 9th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Ridley (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest in that I own two properties that are operated as pubs but they are not beer-tied pubs. I congratulate my noble friend on guiding us through the complexities of these amendments. I have to say, I found the topic of mitochondrial heteroplasmy two weeks ago much easier to understand.

On the whole, I subscribe to the revolutionary idea that people should be free to come up with any commercial arrangements between consenting adults that they wish to, but I certainly recognise that there is a clear wish in this House and the other place for some version of a pub code and a market rent only option. I welcome the Government’s sensible and measured approach to bringing all sides together in this but, as my noble friend Lord Hodgson said, the key question is whether this will keep pubs open.

The industry is clearly warning us that the Bill, unamended, could cost a lot of money—maybe £20 million a year—and could result in the closure of hundreds of pubs. This is confirmed by an independent study by London Economics. It may be wrong and it may be crying wolf, but if it is not, the Bill will have done precisely the opposite of what we all want: it will have closed pubs and thereby damaged communities. It behoves us to tread carefully.

The Government have listened carefully to all sides of this debate and made, as the Minister said, a proportionate and targeted response. They have made important changes to the MRO which will make it more workable, less open to legal challenge and fairer to all stakeholders, while maintaining its spirit. Without the government amendments, there is a risk that we would see less investment. It is a simple fact that many beer-tied pubs have received significant investments. Without the safeguards, the MRO would create uncertainty that deterred investment. We would thereby also lose a low-cost entry into the sector: tenants without the capital to invest in a free-of-tie pub would not necessarily come forward at the same rate—we have heard something on that already. It is crucial that if tenants want to go to an MRO and find investment outside they can do so, but if they want to defer MRO to the next rent review in exchange for investment they should be able to do that, too.

The one law that we keep passing in this House is the law of unintended consequences. Can my noble friend give the House some reassurance that these complicated amendments will minimise the risk of widespread pub closures?

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, I join noble Lords on both sides in welcoming the government amendments and particularly the amendment proposed by my noble friend Lord Whitty—I cannot say the same about the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, but that will not surprise him given our discussions during the passage of the Bill.

As I understand my noble friend’s amendment, he seeks to ensure that if a pub is to be sold, a tied tenant can take action to ensure that the tie terms are not used by a future owner to restrict choice of products or unreasonably increase tied product prices. I think that that would be the effect of the Government not accepting the amendment. I would be grateful for the Minister’s comments.

I have some concern about the emasculation of the adjudicator as far as any code protection is concerned and the events which I have just outlined taking place. I wonder why the Government have decided in the way that they have as far as the adjudicator’s powers and duties are concerned.

The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, as ever, warned us all of the consequences of what we are doing, as did the noble Viscount. I appreciate the view expressed on the law of unintended consequences—it has happened on lots of other occasions, particularly in the pub business. Nowhere did it operate in greater detail than in the case of the Conservative Government’s beer orders back in the 1990s. I thought that they were a good idea at the time, but the law of unintended consequences meant that, instead of brewers owning pubs, pubcos owned them. If we could turn the clock back, I think that we would prefer to rely on the charity of the brewers, although that might in itself be a fairly inexact term, rather than rely on the pubcos.

The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, told us again that the pubcos would look elsewhere for investment if some of the provisions of the Bill were to go forward. I have to say that the pubcos have been looking for alternative investment for very many years. If one looks at the investment that they have made in their pubs compared to the money that they have taken out from the sale of their properties—I could give the House the figures—one sees that far more has been taken out in the form of sale of buildings by pubcos than has ever been invested. Indeed, I could give the noble Lord a list of deeply unhappy tenants who have been promised and have expected investment in their property from the pubcos which has either turned out to be pretty shoddy or has never materialised. If the noble Lord is going to try to frighten us all during the remaining stages of this Bill, he will have to do a bit better than he has done so far.

I would be interested to hear the Minister’s view about the noble Lord’s Amendment 33L. I hope that she will reject it as the ploy that it is it on behalf of the pubcos to, if not maintain the status quo, undermine the decisions taken by the other place, which, by and large, have been welcomed by both sides of your Lordships’ House.