United Kingdom Declining Birth Rate

Debate between Lord Sikka and Lord Livermore

Wednesday 6th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his question. The example he gives of the reform that is no longer going ahead is an interesting one. It was a £1.4 billion commitment made by the previous Government but not a single penny was put behind it in the Budget that they prepared. It is exactly an example of how we got to £22 billion of unfunded spending—it simply was not affordable. If noble Lords opposite would like to find that £1.4 billion or tell us how to raise it, we would be happy to spend it. This Government are committed to family-friendly policies; it is at the core of our opportunities mission. In the Budget, we allocated £8 billion to family services because it is one of our key priorities.

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

My Lords, low wages, poverty, poor housing, food, the high cost of living and household debt dissuade many people from having children. the eradication of poverty must be a priority for the Government. Can the Minister ensure that, within a decade, no one on the national minimum wage will pay any income tax or national insurance, and that the cost of that policy will be borne by the ultra-rich? After all, 1% of the population has more wealth than 70% of the population combined. When will he do that?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am afraid I cannot agree with my noble friend on that, but I agree with him that alleviating poverty should be central to the Government’s objectives. Clearly, work is one of the best routes out of poverty. Equalising women’s participation rates in the economy with those of men would add 1.3 million economically active people into the workforce, which is why helping women back into work is central to the Government’s goals.

Budget: Taxes and Borrowing

Debate between Lord Sikka and Lord Livermore

Monday 4th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I can. We said exactly that in the Budget.

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

My Lords, I have long said that government debt is overstated, and I am surprisingly supported by a man called Jacob Rees-Mogg. On 2 August 2022, he effectively said that the balance at that time of £875 billion of quantitative easing—the amount owed by the Government to the Government—should not be included in the national debt. Its exclusion would reduce public debt to 60% of GDP, meaning that the Government would have more headroom to borrow, invest and grow the economy. Does the Minister agree?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I absolutely agree with the importance of investment to the economy, which is why we have set out an investment rule which enables exactly that. The Government’s number one commitment is to economic and fiscal stability, which is why we have put in place those robust fiscal rules. It is interesting to note that average borrowing over the next five years will be 2.6% of GDP compared to 5.6% of GDP over the previous 14 years.

Fiscal Rules

Debate between Lord Sikka and Lord Livermore

Tuesday 29th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I fully sympathise with the noble Baroness that she struggles to understand the concept of keeping manifesto commitments. She will see in the Budget tomorrow that we will keep every manifesto commitment we made to the British people.

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the party opposite made six or seven changes to the fiscal rules between 2010 and when it left office, and never really explained how that worsened the public finances?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I completely agree with my noble friend.

UK Economy: Capital Gains Tax

Debate between Lord Sikka and Lord Livermore

Wednesday 9th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

The noble Lord is right to say that investment is absolutely crucial to our plans for the economy—which is why we are absolutely committed to removing the barriers to private sector investment—but he knows I cannot comment on speculation about any other specific taxes.

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

My Lords, research shows that taxing capital gains at lower rates than wages does not boost investment in productive assets. It fuels unfairness and tax abuse, as the well-off seek to convert income to capital gains. Is the Minister aware that taxing capital gains at the same rate as wages can raise between £12 billion and £15 billion a year and also reduce tax abuse? If so, when can we expect to see the policy change?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for his expertise on this matter. At the risk of repeating myself, he knows I would not be able to comment on speculation about other specific taxes, but we must rebuild our public finances, including by addressing the £22 billion black hole inherited from the previous Government.

Bank Resolution (Recapitalisation) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Sikka and Lord Livermore

Committee stage
Thursday 5th September 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I have managed to get through several groups without promising to write, but on this occasion I will write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his reply. I will divert slightly to the point made about dividends. The legislation is a complete mess on distributable dividends. The previous Government were going to table legislation about some disclosures of distributable reserves, then just a day before—without any notice to Parliament—they withdrew that, because most companies do not have a clue what their distributable reserves are. This raises all sorts of questions about what are realised or unrealised profits. I will not go into the technicalities at the moment. Any time I hear a Minister talk about dividends or say, “We are going to control dividends”, whether it is about water companies or any others, that is just a no-go area at the moment. It cannot be sorted out without major primary legislation.

The Minister said that there is already legislation in place for civil criminal prosecution. I am afraid that legislation delivered hardly anything after the last banking crash. Countries such as Iceland and even Vietnam prosecuted far more bankers for their negligence than the UK did, though we managed to elevate some afterwards to some very senior political positions, so that legislation is not really effective. I take it from the Minister’s reply that he is not prepared to consider legislation specifically saying that there will be a clawback of executive remuneration. That is the point—in the absence of it, who knows whether the management concerned will bear any personal cost at all? Is my interpretation of the Minister’s reply correct?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I do not have anything further to add to what I said.

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

I thank the Minister. I withdraw my amendment for the time being, though I may bring it back at the next stage.

Public Spending: Inheritance

Debate between Lord Sikka and Lord Livermore

Tuesday 30th July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am very grateful to my noble friend for his kind words. Of course, as always, he is absolutely correct: the previous Government had exhausted the reserve. They had spent it more than three times over only three months into the financial year, yet they continued to make unfunded commitment after unfunded commitment that they knew—cynically—they could not afford, knowing the money was not there. They told no one about this. It is deeply shocking. What is more shocking, as my noble friend said, is that they continued to do this throughout the recent general election campaign. They continued to make unfunded tax and spending commitments with money that they knew, looking back at what they had in the Treasury, was not there to meet any of them. It is deeply shocking not only that they did it but that they learnt nothing from it. From the words of the noble Baroness today, it is still not clear that they have learnt anything from what they did while they were in government.

I join my noble friend in saying that the decision to meet the recommendations of the pay review bodies is absolutely the right one. Again, we have heard nothing but criticism from the other side for that. What is not right is that the previous Government—extraordinarily —published no guidance on what could or not be afforded, nor is it right that they then failed to prepare in any way for those recommendations in departmental budgets, and nor is it right that they had not held a spending review since 2021, which is the root cause for many of these problems.

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

My Lords, around 2 million pensioners are caught in the income tax net because of frozen tax thresholds. Now, we are taking away another £300 from the same people through a measure that was not in our manifesto. I have already received many messages from pensioners expressing great concern about this. The Government could have introduced a taper to lessen the pain to help many pensioners. Will the Minister give a commitment to have another look at that? Also, this document, produced by the Treasury, has lots of financial numbers but there is no mention of any human cost whatever. Last year, 5,000 pensioners died of cold because they were unable to afford heating. Has he made any estimates of how many more will die because £300 will be taken away from them?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

As my noble friend perhaps did not acknowledge, this is not an easy decision and I understand why there is disappointment about it, but it is the right decision in the circumstances. The level of overspend we inherited is simply not sustainable. Left unaddressed, it would have meant a 25% increase in the Government’s financing needs this year, so it falls on this Government to take the difficult decisions to make the necessary in-year savings.