Yorkshire: Devolution

Debate between Lord Shutt of Greetland and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 16th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord for exaggerating my powers. It is something he has done on previous occasions, and I am very grateful for that. I recall the discussions we had, but I think I was much more in receive mode than in despatch mode on those occasions. They were interesting discussions. The important point, and I am sure we both agree, is that these things have to be consensual. I am sure he will also agree that we cannot unravel agreements that have been made and on which a lot of people have expended so much energy.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland (LD)]

My Lords, I think I heard it correctly that the Minister was hinting that if there were to be a greater Yorkshire deal—which I certainly hope there is—he would like there to be a greater Sheffield deal as well, and that at some future date there could be a merger. If that is the Government’s clear view, will they shout it from the rooftops? That could help a great deal, because the people of Yorkshire want a Yorkshire deal.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, that last proposition is untested. There are many different things that the people of Yorkshire want. What I did say, which I will happily restate, is that it is for the people of Yorkshire to decide where this goes ultimately. We have an existing Sheffield deal which I am sure noble Lords will understand we must progress with. If the rest of Yorkshire wants to come forward with a greater Yorkshire deal, that is for them, and thereafter it will be the subject of discussions between those two separate authorities if they want to progress things further.

Update on the Grenfell Tower Fire and Fire Safety

Debate between Lord Shutt of Greetland and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 26th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that contribution. It illustrates the breadth of the inquiry that is needed here, because there are many aspects to this. One has almost overlooked how the fire started, but she is absolutely right. The supplier of the white goods in question, if I can categorise it in that way, has made a statement and is looking at checks on that. I will write to the noble Baroness and copy it to all Members, with any additional points I miss or am unable to answer in this session, including on the involvement of the consumer safety bodies she referred to and the Health and Safety Executive. I am sure that they will be very much involved—I was going to say, plugged in, but that might not be the right word—in the discussions in relation to the inquiry and taking this forward. It illustrates the immense challenge that we have here, and we really cannot duck this challenge. I should also say that I held a briefing earlier today on this situation, attended by many noble Lords, ahead of the Statement. It is my intention to hold another, because this is a quickly changing position, and to take points in more detail with officials then.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland (LD)]

My Lords, I tried last week to ask this question and I should like to try again. I had the privilege in the 2013-14 Session to chair a Select Committee of a dozen Members of this House on the Inquiries Act 2005 and whether it was fit for purpose. We produced a report which was unanimous and generally well received. We said that it was fit for purpose. Therefore, the question is this: is the full rigour of the Act going to be used in the public inquiry? If it is not, whether it is judge-led or not, it will not have the power to pull witnesses in and they can slink away. It is very important that the Act be used.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, as I understand it, the inquiry will be within the rigour of that Act. I had a briefing today that indicated that people could be obliged to attend by subpoena, for example, which indicates that that is the case. Another point I am getting officials to check is that we have somehow to ensure that people giving evidence to this public inquiry—we want it to happen in a very timely way—are protected in that, if they face criminal charges, there has to be some sort of mechanism for making sure they are aware that anything they say on that occasion could be used in criminal proceedings. I will contact the noble Lord, via the letter I am sending round, if I am wrong on that, but as I understand it the Inquiries Act will apply.