Northern Ireland: Bill of Rights

Debate between Lord Shutt of Greetland and Lord Bew

Tuesday 15th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

I am not absolutely clear about the question, but the Government are possessed of the fact of honouring the Belfast agreement. Within that there has to be a human rights element for Northern Ireland. What is not absolutely written in stone is that that has to be very separate.

[Lord Bew]

My Lords, will the Minister comment on the reality that the Belfast agreement does not impose an obligation on the Government to legislate on the human rights question; rather, it imposes an obligation on them to receive the report of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission? Rather more profoundly, that report is supposed to be based on the principle of “parity of esteem” for the “two traditions”. That is explicitly said in the Belfast agreement. The Northern Ireland Assembly has in effect rejected the idea that it is so based. Is it not at this stage for those who believe in human rights legislation to carry on the argument in Northern Ireland with the Northern Ireland Assembly to see whether minds can be changed?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

It certainly is. The Northern Ireland Assembly voted by 46 votes to 42 that it did not want separate human rights legislation. There is an election, and things might well change following that election. If a united front in the Northern Ireland Assembly said that that is what it wanted, obviously the British Government would take due notice.

Control of Donations and Regulation of Loans etc. (Extension of the Prescribed Period) (Northern Ireland) Order 2011

Debate between Lord Shutt of Greetland and Lord Bew

Monday 7th February 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Bew]

I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, for introducing this order. Like the noble Lord, Lord Smith, I have listened to his words with a degree of disappointment. It is right to say that the limits on the progress that has been made in Northern Ireland—remarkable though that progress has been—are shown in that we are still talking about these exemptions and derogations from broader UK electoral law and the transparency of such law.

I am not surprised by the words of the Minister and the proposal put today because the balance of opinion, to my surprise, in Northern Ireland over the past year has been very cautious about changing existing regulations. It has become clear for some time that the Government, if they were to respond to what they were hearing, would have to be relatively cautious in their response. But, having plagued the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, when he was at the Dispatch Box as long ago as 2007 on this matter and having, I think, plagued the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, on this matter, it would be hypocritical of me not to record a note of disappointment. I know why the Government have reached this conclusion. I know that they may have been slightly surprised by the degree of concern on the part of the political parties. But having received that, any responsible Government have to pay attention to it.

I simply make the point that Northern Ireland last year was convulsed by public scandals. One of the issues that lay in the background was that of the relationship of certain businessmen to certain political parties. In the rest of the United Kingdom, such matters would be easily sorted out and put into the public domain, but in Northern Ireland we do not know where we stand. That is a difficulty and the step that the Minister is taking is regrettable, if understandable.

The noble Lord, Lord Smith, says that he hopes that there is a two-year limit and that the provision might just lapse in two years. However, having been at this now for four years, I am not quite so secure in that assumption. I hope that he is right. Therefore, I would like to be reassured that the Minister is as clear as he appears to be that the department is looking carefully at work to deal with this by secondary legislation and, if it cannot be done by that method, that primary legislation will be introduced that at least loosens some of the provisions and gives greater openness. I have an uneasy feeling that, in the short term, that will be the best that we can do; I very much hope that I am wrong. Therefore, it is important that the Northern Ireland Office looks carefully at what can be done in certain areas, because I have a feeling that—even two years from now—we will not be looking at the simple lapsing of this legislation.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank the three noble Lords for their contributions and will endeavour to respond accordingly. In terms of the Government’s position, the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, made the helpful point that she understands where we are at present. She spoke very much about what she referred to as option 3 of what was put forward in the consultation. She asked why we had said two years. The legislation envisaged extensions of the prescribed period for up to two years, so that is the figure that one can go to and no further without another order. She asked what the Government were doing to reduce intimidation. The Government remain committed to doing everything possible to reduce violent activity in Northern Ireland. We continue to work with the Executive and security agencies to reduce overall paramilitary activity, which should lead to a corresponding decrease in intimidation.

The third point that the noble Baroness raised was about the use of the two years. Clearly, work has to be done—this reverts to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bew—on either a new order or primary legislation before too long, because of the issues that noble Lords agreed on, I think, about not releasing past information on the basis that people made donations in the belief that the information about them as donors was not to be released. That would have to be dealt with. Similarly, there could be a system whereby it was not exposed if—for example—the noble Lord, Lord Bew, gave £10,000 to a party today, but the facts that there were £10,000, a recipient and a date could be given. As we understand it, that cannot be done under present legislation.

The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, referred to the originating power, which is in the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions Act) 2006. I have not got a note about whether there will be a fresh period of consultation. That would be in the spirit of what happens in these matters but there is a sense in which what is planned is clear without further consultation, in that it would be about numbers, dates and the recipient party but not the name of the donor. Perhaps this could be done without a further consultation period, but I do not want to close the door on consultation. That copes with the points.

My noble friend Lord Smith of Clifton found it depressing, which I understand, and I wish I was not moving this order. I wish it were rather different, but this is the way it is. This is advice which is given about the security situation in Northern Ireland and what it is right to do. Like him, I would sooner be looking forward.

Over the weekend, I dug out what is on the public record as regards what the parties publish because the parties still have to produce their accounts to be registered with the Electoral Commission. I give this information, which is in the public domain, with one or two health warnings. This relates to the calendar year. All the parties that I shall mention have year ends in December 2009 and, therefore, that does not include what might have been a different year in 2010, when there was a general election.

Five of the parties—the DUP, Sinn Fein, the UUP, the SDLP and the Alliance Party—have between them 186 accounting units, no doubt constituency associations and so forth. Having looked at what is on record with the Electoral Commission, in the accounting units, there do not appear to be hefty figures labelled as donations. Looking at what is shown by the Northern Ireland-wide parties one sees that the DUP’s income was £348,000 with donations of £126,000; Sinn Fein’s income was £1.177 million and its donations £462,000; the UUP’s income was £392,000 and its donations £21,000; the SDLP’s income was £398,000 and its donations £83,000; the Alliance Party’s income was £151,000 and its donations £16,000; the PUP’s income was £107,000 and its donations £150; the Green’s income was £47,000 and its donations £7,000; the income of the Conservatives in Northern Ireland was £215,000 and its donations £204,000; the Labour Party’s income was £1,450 and it had no donations.

Those figures are available for anyone to look at on the website of the Electoral Commission. However, I cannot vouch that each party has put a donation in its own accounts as a donation which has been seen as recordable on the other side of the book with the Electoral Commission. Many of us might see a heavy subscription as a donation, but it might be called a subscription. There are certain health warnings on that, but it gives an idea of the fact that the Northern Ireland-wide income of the parties in that year was just over £2.8 million and the amount that is listed as donations is just over £900,000. Those are the figures and they give one a feel for the sort of numbers we are talking about.

I think I have covered the points made by noble Lords and I hope that the order will be accepted.