Housing: Accessibility

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 22nd July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, first, I thank the noble Baroness for all the exemplary work she does in campaigning on this issue. I am very happy to meet her to discuss this further. She will know that we have brought forward consultation on M4(2) ahead of the consultation on the wider Part M in regard to accessibility, precisely because this is so important. We are looking at it ahead of other issues concerned with Part M and value the work that Habinteg does as a valued partner on this.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I remind the House of my registered interests. I also remind the Minister that 45 of the 322 local plans still refer to older accessible housing standards, putting planning requirements at risk of challenge. Given the importance of this issue, will the Minister urge local planning authorities to update their plans to ensure that they are compliant with the updated post-October 2015 access standards very soon?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right to address that issue. He will understand that the Statement by the Prime Minister on 25 June dealt specifically with the planning aspects of this and the guidance in relation to accessibility following the Neighbourhood Planning Act, reminding local authorities of the responsibility and providing this guidance to ensure that they comply with the law.

Grenfell Response

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 10th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for that important contribution. I shall take his three points in the order he made them. The first was on the failure of the authorities. It is a very fair point, and something we are focused on. He will understand that I cannot comment on the situation in Barking; it is very early days and we have not yet analysed it sufficiently to be able to comment on it. However, I accept that something central to the messages that we are getting and to common sense is that the people who know their housing best are the people who live in it. That fundamental lesson needs to sink in and be taken forward.

I know that noble Lords and many others think the public inquiry is painfully slow, but 200,000 documents are being examined and will inform the response of the three commissioners. I very much welcome the additional two commissioners. They will be very helpful, but I agree with the point the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, is making. In relation to resources, the budget is important. Changes in regulations will no doubt feature in the spending review, but I would not disagree with that either.

In relation to prosecutions and the police situation, the noble Lord will know that the separation of powers is such that I cannot comment in any detail on what is happening. Indeed, I do not know in any detail what is happening, but interviews have been held under caution. In such a situation, one would expect there to be potential for ensuring that those who are to blame for aspects of this are brought to justice. While the matters that relate to the police are quite rightly not within the control of government on a daily basis, it seems that work is happening in that regard.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I remind the House of my interests as set out in the register. I want to raise two issues about tenants’ rights, both of which have been proposed by Grenfell United. The first is that there should be a new, separate consumer protection regulator to protect tenants and change the culture of social housing across the country—in other words, not just leaving everything within the remit of the current system of regulation. That idea has merit, and I hope the Government will be willing to look at it. The second relates to freedom of information. Grenfell United is—in my view, rightly—calling for an extension of the Freedom of Information Act to cover tenant management organisations and housing associations, to give tenants the right to see critical information about their homes. Have the Government done anything about that, as previously proposed? It seems to me that tenants, as occupiers of their dwellings, have a right to know what their landlord knows about their property.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for the constructive way in which he approaches these issues, as always. I have not yet read the document that Grenfell United distributed today but I will no doubt have that opportunity, as will other Ministers. Obviously, in the context of the social housing Green Paper and the subsequent legislation, there will be an opportunity to look at some of these points. Certainly, the point that the noble Lord made about freedom of information seems a very sensible way forward. I do not want to commit us to anything at this stage, other than to say that we will look at this issue very seriously along with the other proposals that have been made. As I said, these people know the situation better than anybody else and we do right to consider what they say.

Ford in Bridgend

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 10th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am not sure that the noble Lord was here to hear the Statement.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister has made a number of comments about a no-deal Brexit. Is he aware of an Oxford University study published in April predicting that the UK car industry could shrink by almost half by the mid-2020s in a no-deal Brexit? If so, does he agree that the election of a Conservative leader and Prime Minister who promotes no deal is not in the interests of the British car industry?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, fascinated as I am by the ongoing leadership election, I do not have any role in it—not until it comes to the membership, at least—so I will not give any commentary on it. However, I agree with the noble Lord about the need for certainty in the economy; he is absolutely right about that. I also agree that a no-deal Brexit is not in the interests of the British economy. The vast majority of candidates accept that and are working towards a deal, which is desirable. If we are talking about the wider economy, however, we come back to the fundamental point on the delivery of Brexit: that there was a vote and that the vote cannot be ignored. To come back to the point about helping the highly qualified, highly skilled, well-paid workforce at Bridgend, we will do the best we can for them by seeking fresh investment and ensuring that the possibilities touched on by the noble Lord are there to service not just Europe but the rest of the world with electric vehicles.

Housing: Social Rent

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 4th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, and remind the House of my vice-presidency of the Local Government Association.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, in October 2017 we announced £2 billion towards the now £9 billion affordable housing programme, which will support the delivery of at least 12,500 social rent homes in areas of high affordability outside London. We have also removed the HRA borrowing caps for local authorities, announced a further £2 billion of long-term funding for housing associations, and are setting a long-term rent deal for councils in England from 2020. It is now for housing associations and local authorities to accelerate delivery and build more homes.

[Lord Shipley]

I thank the Minister for his reply. He will be aware that there is a difference between affordable and social housing. He will also be aware that this year marks the centenary of the housing Act 1919, which created council and social housing. Given the scale of homelessness today, and given that waiting lists for social housing stand at over a million households, does the Minister accept that a new generation of social housing is required, rather than just a few thousand new homes a year?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I certainly agree with the noble Lord that there is a challenge. We have just had the best year of housing delivery for 30 years, bar one year, but that is not to be complacent. There is certainly a challenge; I accept that we need to build more social homes. The raising of the £2 billion budget will certainly help in that regard, as will the elimination of the HRA borrowing caps.

Social Housing: Older People

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Thursday 9th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right to concentrate on that standard. He will know that Part M of the building regulations is about to be reviewed; we have touched on it previously. We very much hope that will be tightened for its requirements for disabled and older people. That will help to inform the sort of progress that we are all keen to make.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, in February last year—15 months ago—the Communities and Local Government Select Committee reported on its inquiry into housing for older people. It had 41 recommendations. Eight months ago, in September 2018, the Government’s response was published. It left many questions unanswered, but it did say this:

“We have been clear that we will consider housing as we develop proposals for the future of the social care system in the green paper to be published in the autumn”.


The two areas of social care and housing are clearly linked. The Green Paper was not published and there is no sign of it. Does the Minister accept the need to respond properly to the committee’s recommendations, and that the failure to publish the Green Paper is turning into a major failure of public policy?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right about the importance of the Select Committee’s recommendations, many of which we are taking forward. He will know that we have ensured that approximately 22,000 specific homes since 2011 have been geared towards older people. We have committed £400 million in the spending review to delivering specialist affordable homes for the vulnerable, elderly and those with disability. We are bringing the Green Paper forward, but he is absolutely right that it is important.

Property Guardians

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 26th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, thinking on my feet, it is not a straightforward matter. Rights attach to people as tenants; more limited rights attach to people as licensees. I do not think there is a statutory definition of a property guardian. We are looking at how to ensure that property guardians have a bedrock of rights in all situations so that people are properly protected. That is the key.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, the Netherlands has a regulator for guardianship properties, which has introduced a kitemarking scheme. Will the Government consider introducing a similar scheme here? I remind the House of my declaration of interest.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord. I met the Property Guardian Providers Association, which might be the organisation to carry this forward. Some 80% of the market are members of that association. The remainder of the market is principally from Dot Dot Dot; a few others may well join that association. We are looking at that measure; it is certainly one possible way forward, similar to the Short Term Accommodation Association that applies in relation to Airbnb-type associations.

Architects Act 1997 (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 25th March 2019 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, these regulations were laid before both Houses on 18 February 2019. They are part of the Government’s programme of legislation to ensure that if the UK leaves the EU without a deal and an implementation period, there continues to be a functioning legislative and regulatory regime.

Leaving the EU with a deal remains the Government’s top priority. This has not changed but the responsible thing to do is to accelerate no-deal preparations to ensure that the country is prepared for every eventuality. These regulations are made using powers in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 to fix legal deficiencies in retained EU law to reflect that the UK will no longer be an EU member state after exit day. Our architectural sector is a global leader and plays a significant role in the British economy, with an export surplus of £437 million in 2015 and involvement in key global projects such as the Neues Museum in Berlin and the Smithsonian National Museum of African American History & Culture in Washington DC.

I trust that noble Lords will allow me to provide a brief overview of how the system works at present. The mutual recognition of professional qualifications directive enables EEA nationals to have certain qualifications recognised in another member state. This includes the recognition of suitably qualified architects. This is a reciprocal arrangement, allowing UK and other EEA nationals the opportunity easily to register to practice across Europe and UK practices to recruit the best European talent. The Architects Act 1997 sets out the specific procedures for registering architects in the United Kingdom. The recognition of qualifications of EEA applicants is carried out by the competent authority, the Architects Registration Board, an arm’s-length body of my department.

There are currently three routes to recognition for an EEA architect wishing to register in the United Kingdom. The main route to recognition in the United Kingdom for an EEA-national architect is through an automatic recognition system. To qualify for automatic recognition, an EEA national needs to meet three criteria. They must have an approved qualification—that is, one listed in Annexe V of the EU’s mutual recognition of professional qualifications directive—access to the profession of architect in an EEA member state and a statement from their home competent authority confirming that they are fit to practice.

A second route, known as general systems, provides recognition for EEA nationals who do not have an approved qualification. General systems allows EEAs national to map their qualification and experience against UK standards with the Architects Registration Board. An applicant is offered compensation measures, that is, the opportunity to undertake additional training to make up any differences in qualification. This is a long and costly process, which on average only four people pursue annually.

The third route facilitates the temporary or occasional provision of service. This allows EEA professionals to work in the United Kingdom in a regulated profession on a temporary basis while remaining established in their home state. Typically, fewer than 20 EEA architects pursue this option at any one time.

If the UK leaves the EU without a deal, the mutual recognition of professional qualifications directive will no longer apply in the United Kingdom. This statutory instrument ensures that UK architect practices can continue to recruit the best European talent and maintain their global reputation as world leaders in the field of architecture.

The policy intention is to provide the sector with confidence that almost all applicants can register in the same way after exit day as they do currently. This is the approach favoured by the sector, which recognises the skills brought by EEA architects as contributing positively to the UK’s reputation as a world leader. The instrument also allows applications made before exit day to be concluded under the current system as far as possible. For future applications after EU exit in a no-deal scenario, an individual holding an approved qualification will be able to join the UK register of architects if they have access to the profession of architect in their home state. The instrument will achieve this by freezing the current list of approved qualifications in the EU’s mutual recognition of professional qualifications directive. This approach will preserve access for UK practices to EEA-qualified architects. This process will be open to anyone with an EEA qualification and access to the profession in the corresponding EEA state, regardless of citizenship. Although temporary, this approach will provide continuity to the sector in the immediate period after we leave the EU with no deal and will be reviewed after exit.

We will remove general systems as a route to registration—noble Lords will recall that this is the currently the second route for qualification, but only four or five people pursue it in any one year—as it is a long and costly process which is not utilised often. It places a significant unnecessary burden on individuals and the Architects Registration Board. Therefore applicants without an approved qualification, including applicants who would have previously qualified for acquired rights, will now be able to pursue the prescribed exam route and undertake further examinations and periods of study to allow registration. This is the route currently utilised by third-country nationals.

We will encourage the regulator, the Architects Registration Board, to maintain its existing effective relationships with other EEA competent authorities. The instrument provides a legal basis for the ARB to continue communicating with other EEA competent authorities to facilitate recognition decisions, ensuring that it can verify that the applicant meets the UK’s high standard of competence.

This instrument places a requirement on the applicant to obtain the relevant information from their home competent authority, should the Architects Registration Board not be able to secure it. This is because currently the Architects Registration Board facilitates information sharing through the EU internal market information system. Without a deal we cannot be confident that the Architects Registration Board will continue to have access to this important information-sharing system. The instrument will remove the right of temporary and occasional provision of services as without guaranteed access to information systems and an agreed process for reciprocation, this route becomes unwieldy and of less value. This will have minimal impact on the sector as only 12 people are currently practising on that basis. Historically, fewer than 20 people have practised as an architect in the UK on a temporary and occasional basis at any one time.

Our overall approach to these amendments is in line with the policy and legal intent of the withdrawal Act and enacts the policy that the Government set out in a guidance document in January 2019. These regulations serve a very specific purpose: to prioritise stability and certainty if the United Kingdom leaves the EU without a deal or an implementation period. The regulations will ensure that the UK continues to have access to top European talent after we have left the EU, thereby helping to maintain the UK’s reputation as a global leader in architectural services. Thereafter, they provide a stable basis for Parliament to change the law where it is in the UK’s best interests to do so.

This instrument is necessary to ensure that the Architects Act continues to function appropriately if the UK leaves the EU without a deal and an implementation period. I hope that noble Lords will join me in supporting the draft regulations. I beg to move.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation. At present, one in six architects in the UK IS from the EU 27. Indeed, the Royal Institute of British Architects estimates that in London and the south-east the proportion is as high as a quarter. Many are employed by large firms with international portfolios of work, particularly on big infrastructure and construction projects such as airports. The contribution of EU 27 architects is not just numerical; it also relates to cultural, language and specialist skills, such as interior design or acoustics, which give high added value to the UK’s capacity to export its architectural services worldwide. Retaining access to EU 27 architects will therefore be very important to the continued prosperity of the architectural services export sector, which depends on having cosmopolitan skills available to deploy in designing schemes that will be built right across the world. One estimate is that this generates around £2 billion of export earnings a year. In addition, there are EU 27 architects resident abroad who are employed on UK building projects. Without them, work would be delayed and the industry’s capacity severely reduced.

This statutory instrument at least recognises that there is a looming problem. It could be said to be making the best of a bad job by attempting to continue ready access for qualified architects from the rest of Europe to the UK. However, paragraph 2.10 of the Explanatory Memorandum relates to individuals’ ability to come to the UK because they will be subject to Her Majesty’s Government’s immigration policy. In other words, first, there will be an income limit; secondly, there will be access only via an employer’s application and payment of an annual fee; and, thirdly, there will be no right to move from job to job. That last point is particularly relevant in this sector, where particular expertise may be needed only for a short time on any one project and it would be routine to move on to another firm with a similar project at the right stage for the exercise of a specialism. There is serious concern within the construction industry that the Government do not acknowledge the importance of the sector in delivering every other policy objective of homes, capital investment in the NHS and capital investment in education, nor do they seem to understand the key role that migrants at every skill level of the industry play in delivering the key outcomes that the Government want.

I have three questions for the Minister. First, does he recognise that no deal puts at risk not just the delivery of key government policy objectives in many fields but will undermine the export potential of a flourishing architectural services sector? Secondly, what assessment have the Government made of the median salary paid to EU 27 architects in the UK, and what is his department’s estimate of the reduction in numbers of architects coming to the UK as a consequence of this imposition of the universal immigration salary cap on this group?

Thirdly, will he look again at why the Government have decided to end the right to an individualised skills assessment for those coming from the EU 27 who may not have fully completed their accreditation? That is known as general systems, as set out in paragraph 2.12 of the Explanatory Memorandum. This has the appearance of pettiness, cutting out a route for a minority of potential employees for no good reason and simply souring the atmosphere further. I hope the Government understand that what may appear to be a short and simple statutory instrument in relation to architects could actually have profound implications for the international status and competitiveness of the architectural industry.

Housing: Future Homes Standard

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Thursday 21st March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness knows, document L relates to carbon standards in relation to heating and environmental standards. Document M, as she also knows, relates to accessibility. They are part of a suite of documents, and each has to be reviewed separately, consequent on Hackitt, to ensure that we get the programme right. The noble Baroness is right to say that six years is a considerable time. The target is, of course, “by 2025”, so I can offer her the reassurance that it could be achieved within that time, earlier than 2025. But we want to get it right, and it is important to have a thorough consultation.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Thomas of Winchester mentioned the category 2 standard. Building homes to that standard is currently optional, but it has been adopted in some places. That is the standard that reflects the lifetime homes standard, so does the Minister agree that it should be made compulsory?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am very much in favour of the review, but I do not want to prejudge it; it is important that it be left to take its own course. Picking up a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, it is certainly important to examine the durability of the standards with a view to not only people who are disabled but people who are ageing. We have an ageing population, and the Government are very much committed to the industrial strategy grand challenge mission on ageing. That is quite a mouthful, but it means aiming for people to live five extra years in good health by 2035, so it plays into this agenda. However, I do not think that we should prejudge the consultation.

Stronger Towns Fund

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 5th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I am grateful to my noble friend for reminding us of the importance of recognising that a significant amount of public money is coming forward here. One thinks of looking gift horses in the mouth. I am sure communities up and down the country will be keen to take advantage of the money available. It is also true to say that there are many other programmes. I have mentioned some; the mayoral combined authorities are obviously getting funding. I take this opportunity to recommend that Sheffield gets its act together as well, to help it ensure that it gets a share of the action as a mayoral combined authority. There is also the Coastal Communities Fund and the Future High Streets Fund, and so on.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Pinnock asked the Minister about defining the word “town”, which I do not quite think he did. However, it is an important question. It may be defined in the prospectus but if the prospectus is not consulted upon beforehand, that needs to be clear. Is the Minister in a position to define a town and whether there is a minimum population threshold? Is it simply anywhere that is not a city or a village? In which case, if a city is a cathedral city outside a combined authority—I am thinking of cities such as Carlisle, Gloucester and Hereford—can it bid into a fund which is for towns when they themselves are cathedral cities?

Will the Minister confirm that towns inside city regions with metro mayors and the resources of combined authorities’ additional funding can nevertheless be part of the scheme? Or will those areas—I am thinking in particular of the county of Northumberland—find their funding cut because the combined authority has been receiving more money?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I find that last question much easier than the others. Certainly, towns such as Berwick—one that is having elections this year would be eligible—although they are in a metro area.

On the definition of a town and whether it is anywhere that is not a city or a village, I know from visiting the cathedrals of England that not all of them are in cities, which adds to the complexity. Chelmsford is now a city, but it was not until recently; Southwell is certainly not a city, and so on. I do not think that it is as simple as the noble Lord put it in his question. I do not want to give a definition. Within mayoral combined authority areas, towns which are visibly towns and not cities will certainly be eligible.

Help to Buy: Housebuilders’ Profits

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Wednesday 27th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shipley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they will take to restrict the profits being made by housebuilders through the Help to Buy scheme.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

Schemes such as Help to Buy equity loan have helped to deliver 222,000 new homes in 2017-18, the highest level since 2007-08. However, we expect builders to act responsibly. We expect all housing developers to deliver good quality housing, to deliver it on time, and to treat purchasers of new-build homes fairly.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

I thank the Minister for his reply. He will be aware that yesterday, the housebuilder Persimmon declared annual profits of over £1 billion, having built 16,449 homes. That is £66,000 per house built, with half the sales funded through Help to Buy. That represents almost a trebling in profit per house since Help to Buy was introduced in 2013. Does the Minister accept research concluding that Help to Buy has led to house prices being 15% higher than they would be compared to similar properties that were not eligible—in turn, fuelling profits? What plans do the Government have to clamp down on huge bonuses arising from the increased profits, made from the public purse under Help to Buy?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I should point out to the noble Lord that the Help to Buy scheme was initiated under the coalition Government. Some of the figures he has quoted were made by his leader, the right honourable Member for Twickenham, Vince Cable, who is in a much better position than I am to know how successful the scheme has been in delivering houses. It has delivered over 190,000, and he was a Cabinet Minister when it started. Ensuring we get value for money is of course important, and we are focused on that. Regarding directors’ salaries, there are provisions in the Companies Act 2006 relating to directors’ duties. Section 173 includes a complex corporate code that governs listed companies. Persimmon, which he has referenced, realised how unacceptable the situation was and the chairman, the chairman of the remuneration committee and the chief executive resigned. That is an indication of the realisation, which I share, that it was inappropriate.

Housing: Private Rented Sector

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 19th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend will be aware that the borrowing cap for local authorities has been raised, which undoubtedly boosts the possibility of housing by local authorities, as he indicated. As I said, there are challenges out there, but I would caution against assuming that all older people do not want to rent and that all of them are unhappy with their rental. That is not the case.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that the Government pay out some £21 billion a year in housing benefit. Does he agree that this huge sum is the consequence of high rents caused, in turn, by a shortage in the supply of homes to rent? Would it not be better to invest in social housing, using future savings on the housing benefit bill to help fund building more homes for social rent?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that there is a problem with supply. As he well knows, that problem existed in the coalition years as well and we are seeking to address it. Last year was the best one for new homes for over a decade. I agree that we need more social housing. That is the principal reason why the borrowing cap for local authorities was lifted.

UK Shared Prosperity Fund

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 4th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I will make two points. The first is a relatively minor one, but lest the Order Paper appear strange, the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, did not table the Question but was cited in another question. In relation to the content of the letter that was read out, I am sure that the noble Lord is right legally. I say simply that the context of this consultation, when it happens shortly, is about ensuring that we address inequalities between communities. That is the essence of what we are looking at.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that if any meetings are held with individual MPs, the minutes of those discussions will be published immediately after they have taken place?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, that is well beyond my brief. I am not quite sure whose discussions the noble Lord is referring to. As he will be aware, many confidential discussions are held, and both MPs and Ministers respect their confidentiality. It is unthinkable that a Government Minister is breaching the law in the way that has been suggested—directly and, in some cases, indirectly—in the Chamber today. Once again—your Lordships should not need encouragement in this—noble Lords should not believe everything they read in the newspapers.

Tower Blocks: Cladding

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 22nd January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord for the points he has raised; I too questioned the mathematics. I will write to the noble Lord to confirm the position, but I think the other 14 are made up of hotels and other types of buildings that are not private residential buildings.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords—

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I always admire the noble Lord’s great assiduity. With regard to the other point the noble Lord made about picking up the bill, we have ruled nothing out. I agree with my noble friend Lord Porter that we are seeking to ensure that the cost of this is picked up by the owners, not the leaseholders. That is the position we are in and the position that the Secretary of State is carrying forward. As I have said, officials monitor progress in this area on a weekly basis.

[Lord Shipley]

My Lords, I remind the House of my entry in the register of interests. In repeating the Answer to this Urgent Question, the Minister referred to the waking watch that has been put in place in all high-rise buildings with ACM cladding. In the case of social housing tower blocks, will he confirm that the significant cost over many months will be paid by the owners and not loaded on to the tenants’ rents?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I understand that that is the position but if I am wrong, I will write to the noble Lord. The most important thing, as I say, is that the Government are determined that the safety of individuals comes first. As he knows, we have committed the £400 million to that, of which I think only £248 million has been deployed. There therefore remains a significant amount of money that will help in this process.

Planning: Permitted Development Rights

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Wednesday 16th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank my noble friend for his kind comments. I think he would agree that swift action is something we would want, but obviously the consultation has only just ended. We will want to bring forward legislation, dependent on the consultation and the analysis of the responses, and to do it at the earliest possible opportunity. I take very seriously what he says, but this consultation is an important one and we will be analysing those 400 responses.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I remind the House of my declaration of interests. I also remind the Minister that since 2015, 42,130 housing units in England have been converted from offices to flats without having to go through the planning system. As a consequence of that, there have been problems, such as no Section 106 agreements, a lack of affordable housing and problems around space standards. As the Government review the consultation, will they look at whether the planning system should be strengthened to prevent poor-quality conversions, given that quite a number in the last three years have been?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord mentions many important facets. I take seriously what he says about design; he will be aware that we introduced that into the National Planning Policy Framework, and it certainly cropped up in the consultation so we will be looking at it closely. I am also aware of the number of conversions from offices to residences, which has certainly put us in a much stronger position than we were on housing starts and completions, and I note that the latest figures show an increase in both. I am sure that noble Lords will share in the delight at that. I take seriously the points made by the noble Lord and we will obviously analyse the consultation responses carefully.

Tenant Fees Bill

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 15th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I will make a few concluding remarks. It has been clear throughout that this is a Bill that we all support, and one that will deliver important changes to the private rented sector, improving lives for millions of tenants. I am grateful to all noble Lords from all parts of the House who have engaged so thoroughly and passionately during the proceedings in this House.

Specifically, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Grender, for her work to date in promoting a ban on letting fees, which has been notable. I also thank the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Shipley, for their significant contributions during our debates. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, who is not in her place at present, for helping to ensure that the client money protection regulations work as intended and the considerable work that she has done on this, as well as the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill. Finally, I thank my noble friends Lady Barran and Lady Jenkin for raising the important issues of home share schemes, which I think we all value.

I firmly believe that all the amendments made in this House strengthen the Bill and offer greater protections for tenants while not unfairly impacting on landlords and agents. I thank industry groups and local authorities for their constructive engagement and support in strengthening the Bill’s provisions and offering feedback on our draft guidance.

We will continue to work closely with stakeholders to ensure that the ban is properly communicated to tenants, landlords and agents, particularly with regard to contractual damages, which were the subject of debate on Report. I reassure the House again that there are already large amounts of case law that deal with what is appropriate in a damages case. Damages are generally not meant to do anything more than put the innocent party—“innocent party” being a legal term—back in the position they would have been had the contract not been breached. They are not a back door to default charges. I will repeat that: they are not a back door to default charges.

We are committed to working with Citizens Advice, Shelter and other industry groups to ensure that tenants fully understand their rights with regard to paying and challenging contractual damages. I know that it is in all our interests to ensure that this vital legislation becomes law as quickly as possible.

Implementation is, of course, subject to parliamentary timetables, and amendments we have made need to be considered in the other place. We also need to allow a period of time following Royal Assent to enable agents and landlords to become compliant with the new legislation. We therefore intend for the provisions of this Bill to come into force on 1 June 2019. This would mean that the ban on letting fees would apply to all new tenancies signed on or after this date.

I conclude by thanking officials who have worked diligently on this Bill and have performed massive tasks in ensuring that we are in the position we are now. I thank Becky Perks, Rosie Gray, Tim Dwyer, Nigel Bousfield, Elly-Marie Connolly, Laurence Morton, Jane Worthington and, from my own office, Lucjan Kaliniecki. I beg to move.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his statement. He said that the Bill would improve the lives of millions of tenants, and he is absolutely right. It is a much better Bill as a consequence of the close cross-party co-operation it has undergone in your Lordships’ House.

I thank the Minister for his willingness to give a great deal of time, meeting regularly with us to identify outstanding issues. From these Benches, I thank my noble friend Lady Grender, whose assiduous campaign over a substantial period has led to fruition in this Bill, which is indeed a significant milestone in the support of tenants’ rights. I also thank Sarah Pughe, in the Liberal Democrat Whips’ Office, for her help. I also extend my thanks to the Bill team and all the officials who gave us a great deal of time in recent weeks while the detail of the changes that were being made in your Lordships’ House was finalised.

We lowered the level of the deposit cap to five weeks’ rent, listed default fees on the face of the Bill, introduced greater transparency around holding deposits, removed local authorities—I declare that I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association—and those acting on behalf of local authorities from the definition of a “relevant person”, and we addressed deficiencies in the client money protection scheme, among a number of other changes. Some of those changes are very important, and enable the Minister to say that the Bill will indeed help financially a large number of tenants.

I thank the Minister for his co-operation throughout this process. The last few weeks have been very productive, making sure that the Bill will stand the test of its application.

New Home Building Programme

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Thursday 10th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend. On her last point, which is certainly a point of common sense, I think that would happen through the disabled facilities grant in that, if something is required in the way the noble Lord, Lord Jordan, referred to, it will apply to all new premises. My noble friend raises an interesting point and it shows the importance of looking in the round at high-rise blocks. People are living longer. Most accidents in the home happen to people aged 65 or above and, as one would expect, that figure accelerates as people get older. Therefore, it is a particular concern and something we need to watch like hawks.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, it was reported over the Christmas Recess that large housebuilders declared dividends of over £2 billion in 2018. Does the Minister agree that this fact sits most uncomfortably with the facts produced by RoSPA? Given the low-space standards for new homes, too many defects in new homes and the rising number of accidents, might the Government heed the clear advice of the Royal Institute of British Architects, which is calling for building regulations to be strengthened rather than depending in part on the planning system for the regulation of space standards?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the document produced by RoSPA on making homes safer through design was worked on with Berkeley Homes, so it is fair to give Berkeley a namecheck for what it does. However, the noble Lord is right that builders have a responsibility to adhere to the building regulations. We are looking at those regulations. As I said, it is clearly unacceptable that there are 6,000 deaths a year. I think that we can get that figure down and we are very keen to do so through appropriate guidance and regulations.

Housebuilding: Target

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Thursday 20th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shipley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they will achieve their commitment to build 300,000 new homes a year.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, we have announced bold measures to make our housing market work better, including planning reforms and total financial support of over £44 billion to 2022-23. Furthermore, at Autumn Budget we abolished housing revenue account borrowing caps, which will help to bring forward a new generation of council housing. This supports our ambition to create, fund and drive a housing market that delivers 300,000 homes a year by the mid-2020s.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply and note his optimism, but I think that the signs are not good. The Minister will know that Shelter now estimates that there will be 320,000 homeless people over Christmas, that there are 1.25 million families on social housing waiting lists and that the country built only 222,000 new homes in the last year—that figure includes conversions. Is he aware that the National Housing Federation estimates that we need to build 90,000 homes a year for social rent for the next few years? Will the Government publish an action plan to show how they will deliver the homes that the country so urgently needs?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord about the challenges that we face, but I do not agree with what he said about the 222,000 homes in the most recent figures. That represents the best figure for 31 years, bar one year, and so is a considerable achievement. Yes, there is more to be done. We have committed money to social housing, as he will be aware. We have abolished the housing revenue borrowing caps, which we had been urged to do. That, too, will make a considerable difference.

Tenant Fees Bill

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 11th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, I will first speak briefly on Amendments 1, 2, 5 to 12, 16 to 19, 33, 35 to 41, 60 and 66, which are minor and technical and are intended to bring consistency and ensure the Bill best delivers on its policy intent.

First, while unlikely, as the Bill is drafted a letting agent could conceivably require a tenant to enter into a contract for services with themselves for additional services related to letting, such as providing an inventory. Amendment 5 clarifies that letting agents are prohibited from requiring a tenant or other relevant person to enter into a contract with themselves.

Secondly, it is possible that a relevant person other than a tenant might be a party to a tenancy agreement or an agreement with a letting agent. We have made amendments to Clauses 1 and 2 to be clear that, where a person is acting on behalf of a tenant or guaranteeing a payment of rent, that person cannot be charged a default fee unless otherwise permitted by the Bill.

In the same vein, Amendments 9 to 12 to Clause 4 provide that a term of agreement which breaches Clause 1 or Clause 2 does not bind a relevant person. Similarly, Amendments 33 and 35 to 41 replace the references to “tenant” in Clause 28 as it applies to pre-commencement tenancy agreements and agreements with letting agents with references to “relevant person”.

Finally, we want to ensure that we use consistent language and terminology throughout the Bill. Amendment 66 changes a reference to “incorrect and misleading information” to “false and misleading information” to align with other references in Schedule 2. Amendments 16 to 19 ensure that the language on day and date in Clause 11 is consistent, and Amendment 60 makes it clear that the definition of a television licence in paragraph 9 of Schedule 1 applies to the entire Act.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, since we have begun Report I should declare my vice-presidency of the Local Government Association. I simply say that these are helpful and relevant amendments that have our support.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, we are all clear that the purpose of the Bill is to ban agents and landlords from charging unfair letting fees to tenants. However, in achieving this objective it is crucial that the legislation does not have an adverse impact elsewhere. Amendments 3, 4 and 29 to 31, in my name, ensure that the Bill does not prevent vital work supporting tenants more broadly.

First, Amendments 3 and 4 exclude local housing authorities or organisations acting on behalf of a local housing authority from the definition of “relevant person” under the Bill. I am most grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Shipley and Lord Beecham, for raising this issue during Second Reading. Local authorities have a duty, as housing authorities, to help the homeless to find accommodation. This is set out in the Housing Act 1996, the recent Homelessness Reduction Act and the homelessness code of guidance. We recognise that, as part of this, councils might need to provide support to applicants—financial or otherwise—to access private rented accommodation. This is vital work, and Amendments 3 and 4 ensure that it can continue. These amendments will ensure that local housing authorities can make payments in connection with a tenancy when acting on behalf of a tenant or guaranteeing their rent.

Secondly, Amendments 29 to 31 ensure that the important work of Homeshare schemes, and its parent network in the UK, Shared Lives, can continue. I have said on multiple occasions that the Government strongly support the work of organisations such as Homeshare in matching a licensee, usually a young person in housing need, with a licensor, usually an elderly householder in need of companionship, sometimes combined with some low-level care or assistance. I know that support is shared throughout the House.

The Bill would have unintentionally prevented Homeshare organisations operating by banning payments made by the licensor in respect of the advice and support received from Shared Lives. I reiterate that the intention of the Bill is not, and never was, to undermine or prevent this important and innovative work continuing. I thank in particular my noble friends Lady Jenkin and Lady Barran for taking up this issue and bringing it to the House’s attention.

The Government recognise that we must take this opportunity to amend the Bill to ensure that such work is not adversely affected. To do this, our amendments provide for changes to Clause 26 to exclude from the Bill such licences as those granted under a Homeshare scheme. We have specified that an excluded licence will be one granted to the licensee by a licensor who resides in the housing, where particular conditions surrounding the grant, renewal and continuation of that licence are met. These conditions include a requirement for a charity or a community interest company to give advice to the licensee or licensor in connection with the grant, renewal or continuation of the licence and where the licensee provides companionship or companionship and low-level care or assistance, together with one or more payments in respect of council tax or utilities, for example. Such arrangements are indicative of Homeshare organisations.

The amendments will therefore ensure that excluded licences that meet the conditions I have just set out are exempt from the tenant fee ban. I hope that my noble friend Lady Barran will agree that these amendments address the concerns she raised in Committee and that this achieves our shared ambition—one we can all surely support—which is that organisations such as Homeshare can continue doing their fantastic work well into the future.

[Lord Shipley]

My Lords, the Minister referred to what I said at Second Reading and he is entirely right. I welcome Amendments 3 and 4. They are hugely helpful because they give local housing authorities the flexibility they need to do their job properly, and for that reason they have our support.

Tenant Fees Bill

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 20th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shipley]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Best. It is important that we are able to discuss this matter through the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, but there is an issue of principle here, which is that it should be a charge not on the tenant but on the landlord and the letting agent, who is not mentioned in the amendment.

The principle is that, if a service is contracted for formally between a tenant and a landlord, a payment can be required. However, that should not be required for either reference checks or identity checks, where the responsibility lies with the landlord or the letting agent. The basic problem here is that the Bill attempts to eliminate up-front tenants’ fees but the amendment might reinstate some tenants’ fees that would not be justified as a charge on the tenant.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

I thank noble Lords very much and particularly my noble friend Lady Gardner for bringing forward this amendment. She does much work in this area.

I cannot accept the amendment because, as the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, has just indicated, it would fundamentally undermine the policy intention of the Bill, which is to ban letting fees paid by tenants and to ensure that the party that contracts a service pays for that service.

This issue was dealt with under Section 22 of the Immigration Act 2014. It was very clear then that this was to be a liability for the landlord, not the tenant, to discharge. Therefore, the amendment would effectively drive a coach and horses through the intention of that legislation. I am not sure what the collective term for a coach and horses would be. It would probably be a stampede or possibly a cavalcade of coaches and horses, but it is clearly not the intention.

Despite the very good arguments put forward by my noble friend and the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, on this point, I very much agree with the noble Lords, Lord Best and Lord Shipley. A landlord should be responsible for the costs associated with these checks. As I have indicated, they are required under the Immigration Act to undertake these checks to verify that a tenant has the legal right to reside in the United Kingdom before progressing with any tenancy agreement.

The Home Office produces detailed guidance for landlords and agents carrying out these checks, and I will certainly ensure that it is circulated to my noble friend and the noble Earl, and indeed to everybody who has participated in the debate.

Although the onus is on the landlord to verify a tenant’s right to rent, we have made provision in the Bill that, where a holding deposit is sought and a tenant fails a right-to-rent check, landlords and agents will not be unfairly penalised if the tenant is at fault. I hope that that gives some comfort to my noble friend and the noble Earl. With those assurances, I respectfully ask my noble friend to withdraw her amendment.

Housing: Shared Ownership

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 6th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

Both are important parts of the buying programme. We have been encouraging Help to Buy; the noble Lord will be aware that it has been extended for two years. We are very keen on shared ownership. As I said, a consultation on social housing has just ended. We seek to extend this more to private housing and are therefore asking for proposals. That consultation is open until 1 February 2019.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the main reason why shared ownership is so important is the high price of houses? He referred to the announcement in the Budget. Will he explain further why Help to Buy, which has increased house prices and builders’ profits, has been extended in the Budget to 2023?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, we value shared ownership very much. That is why we are looking at it in the private context as well as the social one, where it was focused previously. As I have indicated, Help to Buy has been extended for a further two years. It is very easy for those in this House, most, if not all, of whom will own their own homes, but we should recognise that this is an aspiration for a lot of people and that is exactly what the Government have done.

Tenant Fees Bill

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 5th November 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I suspect that we disagree on this point. There are many occasions when I agree with the noble Lord but on this point I do not.

[Lord Shipley]

My Lords, I have found what the Minister has said helpful but I do not feel that it is satisfactory. I am concerned by the report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. It has raised concerns about legislation which is to be supported only through guidance. Paragraph 55 of the report makes it very clear that the committee thinks that the guidance should be subject to parliamentary scrutiny—in this case with the negative procedure.

I hope that there might be an opportunity for us to talk in a little more detail on this issue. My fear is that this Parliament will pass legislation which is not implemented fully because it is not strong enough to be enforced on the ground. I do not think that guidance on its own is sufficient and I would like there to be much firmer regulation. However, I will read Hansard very carefully tomorrow and will possibly hope to meet the Minister before Report to see whether there is any way in which we can build a framework that is stronger than simply guidance. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Housing: Local Plans

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Thursday 13th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I remind the House of my registered interests. Is the Minister aware of reports that approximately 160,000 homes could be built by bypassing local plans by 2020 as a result of the housing delivery test? Does the Minister recognise this figure? If it happens, what is the point of local plans?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the local plan is paramount— the noble Lord, along with many people in this House, was instrumental in getting broad, cross-party agreement on the neighbourhood planning scheme. That will remain the case, but the National Planning Policy Framework will provide an overlay of the number of houses that need to be built in conformity with the national plan. I do not see any consistency there—it is something that we will watch like hawks—but the local plan is paramount in terms of the needs of an area. Related to that are the housing delivery plans, on which we consulted widely and for which there was significant support, as the noble Lord will know.

Housing: Rent

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 10th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I remind the House of my interests as listed in the register. I simply ask the Minister this: are the Government still committed to the one-for-one replacement of council houses sold?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

The noble Lord is absolutely right to draw attention to that commitment. It is still a commitment and announcements will be made shortly about the way forward in relation to council housing. Although there is clearly more to do, I remind him that our record compares very favourably with those of Governments before 2010—but, yes, we are still very much committed to that policy.

Rating (Property in Common Occupation) and Council Tax (Empty Dwellings) Bill

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 4th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I had not anticipated that the noble Lord would go in that direction—more widely than the debate. I hope he will accept that I will pick up that point and try to get an expeditious response to him, but I cannot give him any assurance beyond the fact that it is something that we realise is due. I will write to him and copy the letter to other noble Lords.

[Lord Shipley]

My Lords, I thank the Minister very much for what he has said and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Affordable Housing: Social Homes for Rent

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 3rd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am afraid that the figures speak for themselves. Far more housing has been built in the past seven years than was built under 13 years of Labour. While I grant that it is important to ensure that homes are fit for occupation, it is far more important that we build houses that are fit for occupation. As I say, the figures speak for themselves by showing a massive improvement over the past few years.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I refer to my interests as declared in the register. My noble friend said that over the past year, 12,000 social homes have been sold under the right-to-buy scheme. Perhaps I may remind the Minister that current estimates suggest that the commitment that the Government made a few years ago on a one-for-one replacement of homes sold under the right to buy has not been achieved, and on current announcements made in the past few days, it will not be achieved? Might the Government consider permitting local authorities to keep 100% of right-to-buy receipts?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, inherent in the noble Lord’s question is the importance of right to buy—and, indeed, refreshed right to buy and enhanced right to buy—which I acknowledge. I agree with him about the importance of permitting local authorities to use those receipts to build more. That has been happening at a greater rate, but I acknowledge that he is right to say that more could be done.

Rating (Property in Common Occupation) and Council Tax (Empty Dwellings) Bill

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 19th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shipley]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Deben, explained what could happen. It is not complicated to do; the question at issue is probably simply whether the law in Wales is working effectively. At 70 days proof of letting, that ought to be easy to demonstrate, because evidence will have to be produced. I hope that the Government will speak urgently to the Welsh Government and assess what evidence they have, and, as a consequence of that, possibly organise a meeting of all parties involved in this issue to see whether legislation could be introduced in both Houses which would help to solve this problem. To help this along, I plan to table a set of Written Questions later this week, because securing an even better evidence base than we have at the moment would be helpful. This is not a problem just of east Suffolk, parts of Cornwall and one or two other places. I think it is quite a general problem now, or at least it seems to be, in many parts of the country which are attractive holiday areas.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord very much for putting down lots of Questions: my officials will be doing cartwheels at the news. However, there is a serious point behind what he is putting forward and I absolutely accept that this is a national issue. Our officials will certainly be speaking, if they have not already—I suspect they may have done—to Welsh and Scottish officials to see what is being done there. We are taking it urgently. I will cover this in more detail in a letter: it is certainly very much on the radar though I had not expected that it would come up in this context—and I should have. I will make sure that we get some more detail in the letter and I thank noble Lords for raising this. I realise now that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, who is not in his place, raised a similar issue in Questions today. I could not quite understand what he was getting at but I understand now and I apologise to him. We will make sure that he gets the letter as well.

Given that, and the fact that I and my department take this seriously, I ask the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, to withdraw her amendment.

Grenfell Tower

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 11th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for his comments and understand his personal concerns and those of his wife. I could well understand somebody from the area having a particular concern.

The noble Lord referred to the article in the London Review of Books, which I confess not to having the privilege of reading, but I will do. He referred to criticism of local government in the Statement. The part the noble Lord must be referring to is setting up the independent task force at an early stage, which was asked to provide scrutiny and challenge to the council. That is a normal usage of words when such a task force is appointed, but I take the noble Lord’s point. I certainly agree with him that Sir Martin Moore-Bick has made a very good start on the inquiry, which will run its course, as will the police’s consideration of criminal charges; I must be very careful not to say anything in detail about either of those. I understand the position that he is coming from and will seek to read the relevant article to which he referred.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his clarification on a number of issues so far. I seek responses to two issues that I think would benefit from further clarification.

First, there is a single sentence on page 4 of the Statement that says:

“Remediation work has started on two-thirds of buildings in the social housing sector”.


By implication, remediation work has not started on one-third of buildings in the social housing sector. Is the Minister in a position to explain why that is the case? Is there a list in the department as to which blocks we are talking about and which local authorities we are talking about, and why that remediation work has not yet started? What is the timescale for starting going to be, and what is the timescale for completion of that remediation work? The Minister may not be able to respond to all that today—to do so in a letter later would be fine—but is it possible to define what remediation work actually is? It is one thing to strip off cladding, which is dangerous, but replacing it with suitable cladding which is warm and will reduce people’s energy bills is clearly important. So I am not quite clear what remediation actually means.

Secondly, and very briefly, we have a date for the publication of the social housing Green Paper, which will be “by recess”. It would be helpful to the House if we knew when a debate would take place on the Green Paper. I hope that it will not just be the case of the Green Paper being published and then going out to consultation and the House itself not having the opportunity to debate it. I hope that, rather, time is allowed for a full debate on that Green Paper, because we have been waiting for it for many months.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord very much indeed for that and shall seek to deal with the points that he has raised. On remediation, I do not disagree with him on the importance of ensuring that any appropriate measures take account of the need for proper insulation and ensuring that we meet our climate change targets, and so on—but the most important thing here is the target of ensuring that people are safe. That is the remediation that we are talking about. That work in relation to the public sector has started on two-thirds of buildings. In relation to the other third, interim measures will be in place; for example, 24/7 security workers will be there to ensure that fire wardens are there.

I shall seek to cover the point on the timescale in a letter, if I may, with some more detail that the noble Lord asked for. One reason why the work might not have started on one-third of the buildings is that it may displace tenants—so full account must be taken of that. Suffice it to say, appropriate interim measures will be agreed with fire and rescue authorities in relation to those that have not had work started on them yet.

The noble Lord asked for a debate on the social housing Green Paper, and I hope that we can accommodate that. Of course, there are means available to the Liberal Democrats and others, too, and I am sure that somehow we will make sure that there is proper consideration of this important Green Paper. One reason for the delay to which the noble Lord refers is that we were very keen to talk to people, through Grenfell United and others in the community, to learn about particular points that they may feel needed addressing in relation to the social sector—points that have been made in relation to dealing with complaints, and so on, that arise. That is one reason that it was felt appropriate to take that into account in working through the Green Paper.

Leaseholders’ Rights: High-rise Blocks

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 22nd May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I remind the House of my interests in the register and beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, we have advised local housing authorities that building owners should take responsibility for funding fire safety measures and should draw on their existing resources to do so. It is important that leaseholders are able to access specialist advice to understand their rights. The department is providing additional funding to the Leasehold Advisory Service which provides free initial and tailored advice to support leaseholders in understanding the terms of their lease.

[Lord Shipley]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply, for the announcement last Thursday of the extra £400 million being provided by the Government and for the further clarification yesterday which made it clear to the House that it could be more than that if remediation of these tower blocks costs more. I bring to the Minister’s attention the fact that in a large number of local housing authority tower blocks, fire-watching staff have been in post now for almost a year and will presumably be for some time to come. I seek the Minister’s confirmation that no cost will be incurred either by tenants or leaseholders of such a block; the faulty cladding is no fault of theirs and it seems unreasonable to expect them to pay any additional cost, either through service charges or through rents.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the amount is actually £420 million, but the noble Lord is absolutely right that that could be somewhat higher: it is an estimate. That money is designed for replacing the cladding system. On the type of 24/7 watch he referred to, some of these interim measures were in place for blocks where the remediation work has not yet been completed. It is certainly our view that social tenants should not bear the cost of that. In the private sector, similarly, interim measures are in place and it is the view of the department that those costs should be borne by freeholders. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State is having round-table meetings in the next few weeks to discuss these issues with leaseholders and owners.

Tower Blocks: Dangerous Cladding

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 21st May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, very much indeed for joining in the thoughts that I am sure we all share as the inquiry gets under way and as tributes are made by the bereaved. We can fully understand the angst that that must be causing. I had the privilege of meeting some families last week and I fully understand what they must be going through.

The noble Lord referred to the £400 million announced by the Prime Minister last week, which I think is significant. Of course, that is an estimate of the full funding of the work necessary for the measures in the social sector. The noble Lord also asked what else we are doing. Of course, there are interim measures in place while the replacement of cladding is carried out. We expect that work to be very effective—for example, patrols to make sure that the building is safe while the work is carried out—so it is not as if we are not doing anything. This is a very complex area, as I know the noble Lord appreciates, and we are doing a great deal to ensure that people in high-rise blocks are safe.

The noble Lord asked, quite rightly, about the private sector. We have, along with local authorities, identified 101 private residential blocks. We have made money available to help local authorities identify the blocks that need assistance. They have the testing available in just the same way as the social sector; there is no cost attached to the testing of the ACM cladding in those situations and interim measures will apply in just the same way. As the Statement made clear, we are expecting landlords to step up, as some have done—Barratt, for example, for Citiscape in Croydon—to ensure that they are meeting the costs. As the Statement also made clear, the Secretary of State is holding round tables to look at these remediation issues with a view to ensuring that those that can bear the costs do so and those that cannot bear the costs do not. Those round tables will start this week.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I remind the House that I too am a vice-president of the Local Government Association. I want to join these Benches with the other Front Benches in expressing our sympathy and support for the bereaved residents of Grenfell.

I have two questions for the Minister. First, Dame Judith Hackitt said on the news at the end of last week that she was perfectly happy with a ban being placed on all combustible materials on blocks. The Minister has said that there is going to be consultation about that. My question is: how long will that be? There seems to be a unity of view that combustible materials should be banned, so I very much hope that the consultation will not take a long time.

I was pleased to hear the Minister say that the £400 million is an estimate. I raised this matter in the debate on the Statement last Thursday. Inevitably, it cannot be a fixed sum. I hope the Minister will confirm, for the avoidance of any doubt, that the Government will reimburse the full costs, which I understand they have to agree with local housing authorities, even if the full costs exceed £400 million.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for his comment about our thoughts being with the people affected. He had two specific questions relating to Dame Judith Hackitt’s review into safety and fire measures. He is absolutely right: Dame Judith did say that she was not necessarily opposed to a ban. I think her point in the review was that the whole building system needed to be looked at; she did not want it to be felt that this is, as it were, a silver bullet. The consultation on the ban we are considering will be of appropriate length. Of course, there is a process to be gone through, as the noble Lord will appreciate, and I have not got the exact measure of how long that will be. If it becomes available, I will certainly write to the noble Lord and share that with other noble Lords, but there is a process to be gone through and, although we do not want to hang about, we do want to do the right thing. We obviously do not want to be called to account for not doing this appropriately.

I can confirm that £400 million is an estimate of the cost. We are unable to know exactly what it will be, but essential work for councils and housing associations will be covered. Our best estimate is in the measure of £400 million, but it is an estimate.

Housing: Right-to-Buy Sales

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 27th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, first, I take issue with the noble Lord on the figures. The latest figures, from September 2017, show that 14,736 new houses were built under the three-year rolling figures that we have. With anything that is not sold—where there are proceeds, of course—by local authorities, the relevant part of the money goes towards affordable housing programmes. I therefore take issue with that point. As the first Answer indicates, I agree that there is definitely an issue to address in social housing. That is why we are making the £1 billion additional money available on borrowing and why we have announced £2 billion more for affordable and social housing.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I wonder whether the Minister is aware that the Canadian Government have defined adequate housing as a human right. Does the Minister think, as I do, that that is an extremely good idea? Might the UK Government think of defining adequate housing as a human right?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am very interested to hear that. I was not aware of it. I think the most important thing is that we address what is definitely a massive issue for people. Clearly, people need to have an appropriate home and we are seeking to do that. From the latest figures, I think we have built more in the past year than in any year for the past 20 years. However, there is, as noble Lords are aware—and as I have said more than once, even today—a considerable issue in addressing the shortfall in housing in our country.

Grenfell Tower

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Thursday 22nd March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia. He has indeed already raised this issue. Once again, I can well understand what is prompting him to do so, and it is an issue that concerns the Government. As I indicated, we are still in the process of identifying blocks that fall into this category, partly because of issues about where ownership is held. That said, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State is very keen to hold this round table to look at the range of issues and options that apply here, because we do recognise, as the noble Lord has indicated, that this needs addressing. If I have further information on this, or about the timescale, I will certainly include it in the letter that I will write.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I remind the House of my registered interests. I would like to ask the Minister to clarify the number of permanent homes that there shortly will be. I remind the Minister that, on 14 December 2017 in this Chamber, the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, said:

“The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea is doing intensive work alongside the families, finding out what accommodation they need and where they need it, and seeking to match that with the 300 houses that it is acquiring. I very much hope that by June everybody will have been offered and accepted permanent accommodation”.—[Official Report, 14/12/17; col. 1669.]


It is now three months on since that Statement, and the end of June is three months on from now. I am very concerned about numbers being published which are open to question. I would like the Minister to clarify this: I think, but seek clarification, that the 300 homes referred to in this ministerial Statement are the same 300 homes that were said to be being assembled by the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea in December. Only 62 households have been permanently rehoused as of today, and a large number are waiting to be permanently rehoused. What is not clear is how many of the 300 mentioned in this Statement are permanent, and how many are only available for a temporary tenure.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, very much for those particular points. I think I heard the first question, but I think there was a sneeze in the Chamber, which happened at a strategic point. I think he was asking about the number of people housed in permanent homes at the moment?

[Lord Shipley]

To clarify, it was explained by the Minister in December, but not by the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, that there was an expectation that all 300 families—all those who needed a permanent home—would have a permanent home by the end of June. I think that the 300 homes talked about in this Statement are the same 300 homes that we had in December. I do not know, because the Statement does not tell us, how many of those 300 in today’s Statement are actually available for permanent tenure. If they are not all available for permanent tenure, it implies that many are going to have to wait for many months to come to secure permanent accommodation.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I am grateful to the noble Lord and see the point that he is making. I think the reference in the Statement, though I do not have the relevant figure to hand, is over 300. I think it is the same 300. I think there are certainly more than enough permanent homes to house all the households, which are, I think, 204 as we stand. There are still splitting of households, which might send it up to 210. I will confirm that in the letter, if I may. I think that is the case.

I take the more general point which was made previously by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, about providing more clarity in the way we set out the figures. The figures are here, but perhaps not as well set out as they could be. The aim is certainly to ensure that these homes are taken up on a permanent basis. I do once again confirm that the vast majority of people have had offers made to them. We can make offers, but we cannot command people to accept them and nor have we ever sought to do so. It has generally been supported in the House that we cannot require people to accept them. Of course, we can try to ensure—this is a point that the task force made in the second report—that there is more personalised consideration of people’s particular needs and wants, and that is something that I hope we are able to pick up, so that we can match people’s needs with a particular property. But there are still people—I do not want to overstate it—who do not yet want to engage with the discussion because of the trauma associated with moving, even out of emergency accommodation where some of them are quite familiar. That may be something that we do not think is objectively desirable, but we have to be sensitive to their feelings.

Insolvency of Registered Providers of Social Housing Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 20th March 2018 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, these regulations were laid before this House on 7 February 2018. In the Housing and Planning Act 2016, we introduced a special administration regime for the social housing sector. In introducing these changes, we were responding to concerns that the existing moratorium provisions are not suitable for modern, large, developing and complex housing associations that might get into financial difficulty.

The provisions in the Act applied only to housing associations that were companies. We were unable to include registered societies and charitable incorporated organisations in the Act, due to the timing and the complexity of drafting required. Therefore, the Act included provision to make regulations to extend the housing administration regime to these forms of housing associations, thus covering all the different forms of housing association. These are the draft regulations that we are considering today. I also draw your Lordships’ attention to the fact that there will need to be another piece of legislation enacted before the housing administration regime can be commenced. This will be a statutory instrument setting out the rules that apply to the administrator’s conduct of a housing association. They will follow the negative procedure and cannot be introduced until we have passed this legislation.

Turning to the purpose of this legislation, the regulations before your Lordships are quite technical, but, as I said, they extend the housing administration regime set out in the Act to housing associations that are registered societies or charitable incorporated organisations. Under the law at the moment, where a housing association gets into financial difficulty and steps are taken towards it entering a formal insolvency procedure, a 28-day moratorium begins, which restricts creditors’ ability to enforce their security during this timeframe. If the regulator cannot reach a solution with creditors within the 28-day period or any agreed extension, creditors are able to call in loans and seek to recover debts through a sale of assets including social housing stock. This could potentially lead to a fire sale of social housing, meaning that the stock would no longer be regulated and tenants would lose the protections of the social sector, including rent regulation.

This process was considered to be inadequate when dealing with modern, large, developing and complex housing associations with tens of thousands of properties in their ownership. There are almost 1,500 private registered providers of social housing in England, providing some 2.6 million homes to those in housing need. Although financial failure within any housing association is extremely rare, the housing association sector has changed significantly in recent years. The level of private finance has grown from £48 billion in 2012 to £70 billion in 2017, for example. Therefore, in the event of a private registered provider becoming at risk of entering insolvency proceedings, the Act gives the Secretary of State—or the Regulator of Social Housing, with the Secretary of State’s consent—power to apply to the court to appoint a housing administrator. The administrator would manage the affairs, business and property of the registered provider of social housing for the duration of the housing administration.

As with any administration regime, the main objective would be to rescue the organisation or return money to creditors—or, indeed, both. The crucial difference is that a housing administrator would also have a secondary objective: to retain as much of the social housing as possible within the regulated sector. In addition, a housing administrator would not be constrained by a 28-day timeframe and would have the time to investigate the business and find the best solution possible to meet these objectives.

These regulations extend the housing administration framework in the Act to registered societies and charitable incorporated organisations. As I have mentioned, there are some 1,500 housing associations. About 400 of those are companies; the remainder, some 1,100, are registered societies or charitable incorporated organisations. The regulations apply certain provisions of the Insolvency Act 1986, with necessary modifications, to registered societies and charitable incorporated organisations.

We carried out informal consultation with representatives from insolvency practitioners, valuers, UK finance, and private registered providers and main lenders prior to the introduction of the Housing and Planning Act 2016, and again before laying these regulations. This group represented the organisations that have the main interest in housing administration, and they are keen to have this regime in place. A fuller public consultation was not carried out due to the extremely technical nature of the regulations and because the process of housing administration will be required only in the event of a housing association facing insolvency, which experience has shown to be extremely rare.

These regulations apply to the whole of the United Kingdom. We want the regime to cover social housing stock in England, including any such stock held by housing associations registered with the social housing regulator for England but which are, as legal entities, registered in devolved Administrations. I commend these regulations to the Committee.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I remind the Committee that I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association. It is important to support the regulations because it is in the interests of tenants that we should. It is also in the public interest that we should protect the Government’s investment in social housing within the regulated sector. As the Regulator of Social Housing has pointed out, its powers may not be strong enough if one of the bigger private registered providers gets into trouble financially. There has to be a robust mechanism for the handling of financial failure. I accept that the sale of houses that is not done to an agreed, coherent plan could impact negatively on the rights of social tenants, not least on the level of their rents. We need to protect them.

However, now that housing associations are in the private sector and there is, as the Minister reminded us, a higher level of debt finance than there used to be, I return to an issue arising from four Written Questions on the governance of housing associations, which the Minister answered on 20 February. They were about, first, whether the Government would be prepared to take steps to require Homes England to maintain a formal, publicly available register of directors of regulated housing associations; secondly, whether Homes England could be required to publish clear governance standards for housing associations to enforce strong independent director representation and responsibilities, in line with those applying to public companies; thirdly, whether the Government would take steps to require all housing associations to publish details of director attendance at meetings in their annual reports; and fourthly, whether the Government will require annual returns to be made available to the public free of charge, showing the levels of board remuneration of housing associations.

Various statements were made in the rewritten reply. I understand why they were, but two lines struck me as particularly important:

“The Secretary of State is not able to direct the Regulator on the governance arrangements of housing associations, and the Regulator has no plans to change the current approach”.


I ask the Minister a very specific question in the context of these regulations. If a housing association becomes insolvent and there are found to be problems in its governance that led to the insolvency, does that mean that the regulator may be found partly responsible for the insolvency of that housing association, because, as the Minister’s reply said, it has no plans to change the current approach? We need to be clear about the governance responsibilities of housing associations and of the regulator. Problems almost certainly will not arise but if they do, we need to be clear that a housing association—a regulated provider—has done everything it ought to have done about the openness of its governance structure.

Building Safety Update

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Thursday 15th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I remind the House that I am vice-president of the Local Government Association. I share the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and the tribute he paid to all those affected by the Grenfell tragedy.

I refer the Minister to paragraph 10 of the Statement in which it is said that there is no change to the fire safety advice that the public should follow. Does that mean that the stay-put policy for tenants in high-rise blocks is seen to be the right policy? I suspect that many people who live in high-rise blocks doubt that that should be the case.

Secondly, should the Government insist that fire regulation assessments for every high-rise building are published and made available in an accessible form for the public to read? At present, fire regulation assessments may not necessarily be public documents. If the Government are now going to say that a stay-put policy is appropriate, it follows that fire regulation assessments should be publicly available for the tenants and residents of such blocks.

I was struck by paragraph 14 of the Statement, which states that there is no evidence that this is a systemic issue. In one sense all the evidence suggests that that may be true. It probably is true that the data between 2009 and 2017 shows that fire does not generally spread beyond the room of origin. That may be generally true but, of course, sometimes it is not true and in the case of Grenfell it was not true. There is a huge amount of evidence being collected by all those working to prevent Grenfell happening again and it is pretty clear to me from what I have read in documents published by the Minister’s own department, the latest update being about a fortnight ago, that we need to move much more quickly than the Government seem to be working: there is an issue of public confidence in fire safety regulations and I fear that the Government are too slow in their resolution of some of these problems.

The public want to know whether the Government will enforce compulsory, regular electrical safety checks in high-rise blocks as a matter of policy. My final point is that there is a huge issue arising now about who is going to pay the bill for all the remedial works that are required. There is a huge amount of publicity around private leaseholders, some of whom are likely to have a fee to pay for the fire wardens who are currently in their blocks. More generally, because cladding has been put on to a large number of blocks and is having to be taken off, there is an issue as to who is paying the bill for the private leaseholders. I am not sure that it is sufficient for the Government to say simply that the solution is for private leaseholders to sue the council, the local housing authority or some other party; I fear that it is not.

Finally, the Government have consistently said that they will fund essential and necessary works to high-rise blocks. Will the Minister confirm that that remains their policy?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Shipley, for the points they have raised and for the way in which they raised them. I share their true, undying respect and admiration for all those who, on the night of Grenfell and ever since, have made such a massive contribution in relation to that dreadful disaster. It has been truly awesome and we owe an undying debt to people who have helped in that way. I shall try to deal with some of the points and, in so far as I cannot, I will certainly write to noble Lords and make sure that a copy is placed in the Library.

First, I am not sure about the number of private tower blocks; I will need to write to the noble Lord about the outstanding position there. On funding for local authorities, which was raised by both noble Lords, I can confirm that the Government’s aim—it will be our number one aim and we will ensure it happens—is that nothing will not be done by reason of lack of finance. Safety is the priority. Discussions are ongoing with a number of authorities about the possibility of meeting some costs. I will provide a more detailed update, if I may.

Of the 209 families that we are undertaking to rehouse from Grenfell Tower and Grenfell Walk—noble Lords may remember that it is more than the initial number of households because some are splitting— 184 have found accommodation, some temporary and some permanent. I am not sure of the precise numbers of those who have moved in and those who have not. Another important point to make is that some of those who initially opt for temporary accommodation subsequently decide to go permanent. There is an element of flux between the different categories, and that is perhaps the most significant one. Again, I will provide an update there, if I may.

On the more specific issue in the Statement about fire safety and fire safety advice, the advice that remains unchanged—I say to the noble Lord, Lord Shipley—is to keep fire doors shut to help prevent the spread of fire and smoke. That is central, as is understanding the fire safety advice for your building and, if in doubt, discussing this with your landlord or building owner; it should be advertised. I very much take his point about ensuring that this local assessment is known by people. That is no doubt something that the Dame Judith Hackitt review will be looking at, and of course we will look at that with a degree of urgency as soon as the review reports—the final stage of which is in the spring—because these matters are urgent. I accept what the two noble Lords have said about the importance of that.

Regarding this particular exercise on what happened in the block, I should say first that this was discovered as a result of the Metropolitan Police investigation—because of course there is no access to the site at the moment because it is a crime scene. As soon as we became aware of it, we took the appropriate action to consult the relevant committees, fire chiefs and so on. In consequence of that, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has said that we need to move this on apace and look at it more widely in the context of fire doors elsewhere. It is a particular batch that is being looked at. There is no indication at the moment that it is wider than that, but we are now moving forward apace to ensure that, in consequence of what the Secretary of State has said, we look at other fire doors to see if it is any wider than that. I think that that is the appropriate thing to do. In the meantime, it is worth stating that this is somewhat different from the cladding. Whereas there was every prospect, at least in some cases, that the cladding could be an accelerant to a fire, here we are talking about something that impedes the fire. The issue in relation to this single door was that it was about half what it should have been; it did not impede it enough. In consequence of that, we are doing the other testing. As this is something that will now move on apace, I would like to write to noble Lords ahead of Easter with an update on this, and of course there is the undertaking from the Secretary of State that he will report back in the other place before the end of Easter. I would expect to repeat that exercise here.

Secure Tenancies (Victims of Domestic Abuse) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 13th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, from these Benches, I add our thanks to the Minister for being so helpful in the passage of the Bill. It is a better Bill because of the work that was undertaken both in this Chamber and outside it. I thank the Minister for that. The House should pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Lister of Burtersett, for all her hard work in explaining the background to this and thank too those advising her. We should also pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Hamwee for her hard work in pressing on this Bill.

As the Minister knows, it is one thing to enact a Bill. It is another for it to be implemented smoothly. The Minister has paid close attention to the need for adequate training by local housing authorities. He has also paid close attention to the issue that was raised at Report by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, in relation to GPs charging victims of domestic abuse for the medical evidence that they need to secure a further tenancy. I am hopeful that that matter will be resolved in guidance.

Finally, to recall Second Reading and Committee, this Bill concerns only the public sector. It does not concern housing associations, which are now in the private sector. I hope that the Minister will ensure that housing associations follow the good practice that is now about to occur with the public housing stock.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank very much the noble Lords who have spoken: the noble Baroness, Lady Lister of Burtersett, and the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Shipley. I also thank the members of the Bill team. Often the civil servants do not get their due accolades, but they deserve to. Parwez Samnakay, Frances Walker, Jane Worthington, Jane Everton, Lizzie Clifford and, from my own team, Ed Clark have all worked incredibly hard, engaging with Peers, making things happen and working long hours. I am very grateful.

I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, whose work this Bill largely is. It was her initiative to raise this with my noble friend Lady Evans of Bowes Park. Certainly my leader—the boss—deserves credit for making sure that this happened but it was the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, who was really pushing and has been pushing in a constructive way ever since. I pay tribute to what she has done.

I also extend thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy. I very much enjoy our engagement. He is a model of what an opposition politician should be—if only he did not support Millwall, but nobody is perfect. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, as well for constructively engaging in this. I hope that these same key people will be there when we look at the next development in relation to domestic abuse. There is much that unites here and very little, if anything, that divides us. I look forward to that.

I also pay tribute to Women’s Aid and, indeed, to everyone working in this sector—Refuge, Imkaan and others—for the work they have done. In short, all parties and all parts of the House can take a bow with this piece of legislation, which has engaged us all in a very positive, sensible and pragmatic way. I am most grateful for that. Thank you.

National Planning Policy Framework

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 6th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend makes a very good point, the answer to which is, realistically, that we are reversing a process. The price increase process will slow and will halt over time, but I do not seriously think that we can expect large falls. We can see a levelling off over time.

[Lord Shipley]

My Lords, I remind the House of my interests in the register. I welcome the Government’s proposal to get tough on viability assessments and to close the viability loophole. I thank the Minister for his letter yesterday to Members about the Statement. Why is there only an expectation that viability assessments will be publicly available? If the Government plan to increase accountability, surely there should be a requirement to make viability assessments publicly available.

I wish to ask also about the absence from the Statement of social housing for rent. There have been previous discussions about the publication date of the Green Paper on social housing. It seems to be repeatedly deferred, yet the only way 300,000 new homes, net, can be built each year is through empowering councils to build more homes—and that implies building more homes for social rent.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for what were essentially two questions. The most important point is the assessment of viability but, if I may, I will get back to him on the transparency issue; it seems a fair point but I would like to have a look at it.

There are two specific reasons why we do not tackle the issue of social housing in the Statement. The Statement is talking about the housing need and housing delivery across the board; it does not seek to apportion it between different types of housing. However, as the noble Lord will know and I have repeated many times, we are committed to more social housing. As he has rightly said, a review is coming up. It has not been postponed: it is due in the spring—that is what I can offer him—and obviously, there will be more detail in it.

Private Rented Housing: Electrical Safety Checks

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 26th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I encourage the noble Lord to participate in the consultation, but I note what he says and I share the view that it is important to ensure that we have sufficient people who are expert in this field who are able to undertake the work necessary. That is a broader consideration and something that the Government are certainly on top of. In the meantime, as I say, the reason why we are having this consultation is so that we can test some of the recommendations that have been made by a very well-balanced working party, but perhaps we need broader consultation.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

I remind the House of my interest in the register. I would like to ask the Minister about Grenfell Tower, given that the fire in that tower originated from a faulty electrical appliance. What steps are the Government taking to enforce stricter electrical safety checks in tower blocks across the UK?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, Grenfell is of course the subject of a very live criminal review, so it is important that I do not say anything that could prejudice that consideration. In general terms, though, a Green Paper relating to the social rented sector will shortly be forthcoming, and it will cover the area that the noble Lord is talking about.

Grenfell Tower: Insulation Materials

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 5th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the test system is not in chaos. I made it quite clear that the Celotex issue does not have a bearing on the advice that we have given in relation to the Grenfell testing. The system tests were designed in line with the British Standard and were scrutinised and witnessed by independent observers. This is a discrepancy between what Celotex thought it had submitted and what was actually tested; it was not a reflection on the testing itself. Meanwhile, officials are working with the manufacturer on what has happened, and we will look to learn lessons from this. I will write to noble Lords to give more details of that as they become apparent, but I want to underline that this is no reflection at all on the testing system, or on what has happened in relation to Grenfell.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, I remind the House that I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association.

There are 10 points in the Government’s response. Paragraph 2 says that the Building Research Establishment was contacted by Celotex last week. However, the reply does not say why this problem occurred in the first place. Why was the testing inadequate?

With regard to paragraph 5, the Minister has made clear that this was not a test of the aluminium composite material cladding system that was understood to have been present at Grenfell Tower. However, weekend media reports said that Celotex RS5000 insulation was on Grenfell Tower. Was that the case?

Thirdly, on paragraph 8, the Minister says that the advice currently given to owners of high-rise blocks and public buildings still stands, but I suggest to him that it is not enough. As of 10 January 2018, there are 312 residential buildings over 18 metres high in England, and public buildings are part of that total. All those have aluminium composite material cladding but, of the 312, 299 have aluminium composite material cladding that the MHCLG’s expert panel advises is unlikely to meet current building regulations guidance, and therefore presents fire hazards on buildings higher than 18 metres.

Does the Minister feel that that situation is acceptable, and does he understand the frustration of building owners that the Government are not being sufficiently clear on fire safety measures that are essential, nor on exactly where the finance for essential works will come from?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord raises various material points which I shall try to deal with. First, I restate that nothing in the system of testing done in relation to Grenfell is faulty. The Grenfell testing is not in question from the Celotex test.

The noble Lord raises an issue about the 299 tests that failed. He is absolutely right about that figure; it is the ministry figure. These are failed tests following the Grenfell fire in June last year, and we are in the process of ensuring that all are remedied. Some are on local authority buildings, some are public buildings, some are student residences, some of them are in private hands, but on all of them either interim measures have been taken or the process has been completed. That process was put in place post Grenfell and, as I said, there is no question but that appropriate action is now being taken in relation to those 299 failures of the 312 tests undertaken.

Secure Tenancies (Victims of Domestic Abuse) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 24th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shipley]

My Lords, this is an important amendment. It scratches the surface of a number of issues that might actually be reported annually. I hope the Government will look carefully at what information they are going to get. I would like to see how many tenants of housing associations who transfer to a local authority—either the local authority where they have been living or another one—are rehoused with a secure tenancy. I am sure the Minister and his officials will come up with a long list of what local authorities should report on, but it is important to get this right because otherwise we may not know whether the training is being properly undertaken.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for tabling this amendment and the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for his contribution.

I am sympathetic to the intention behind Amendment 6; I agree that it is important to monitor the impact of the Bill. However, I do not believe it is necessary to use the Bill to impose an additional duty on local authorities to collect information, or on the ministry to report to Parliament on the information collected. Information on all social housing lettings is collected through the continuous recording system known as CORE and is published annually by the ministry. I believe the data collected through CORE is sufficient to allow the ministry to monitor the impact of the Bill. This is because CORE collects information on the nature of the landlord, the type of tenancy granted, whether the letting is made to a new or existing tenant and the main reason reported by the tenant for leaving their last settled home, including whether this was in relation to domestic abuse.

As I say, while I understand the intention behind the amendment, I cannot support it. To impose a further statutory requirement on local authorities to collect information that is already being provided through CORE would be burdensome, unnecessary and indeed costly. On this basis, I hope the noble Lord agrees to withdraw the amendment.

Local Government Finance Settlement

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 19th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I remind the House that I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association.

The key test of this Statement is whether the provisional finance settlement will alleviate the general funding pressures facing local councils. I think that the answer to that question is: hardly at all. As the letter from the Communities Secretary accompanying the Statement explains, the resources available for local government will rise from £44.3 billion in the current year, 2017-18, to £45.6 billion in two years’ time, 2019-20. This represents an increase well under the current rate of inflation and does not reflect rising demand to the extent that it should. In recent years, pressures have grown significantly because of year-on-year underfunding. In the end, the question is how much is local government actually receiving to spend overall, and not simply how much is it going to have over the next two years? Nevertheless, I welcome the extra support allocated for rural services and the thinking on the new homes bonus and negative RSG. However, I hope the Minister will be able to say a further word about government thinking on business rates and what their ultimate objective is.

As I understand the Statement, there is to be an extension to the number of 100% business rate retention pilots. At the same time, all local authorities will be able to keep more of their business rate income, equivalent to 75% overall in 2019-20. Alongside this, there will be a new system of fair funding—or at least I assume that that is the objective. That will be introduced from 2020-21. For the new system to succeed it will require redistribution to reflect needs and resources. Will the Minister say a further word about what the Government are trying to do? Are they trying adequately to reflect needs and resources, or are they aiming at 100% business rate retention? If the latter, where will the support needed for poorer authorities come from?

We have heard about the pressures on children’s and adult social care. There is an issue of principle here. This time last year, I said that council tax should not be used to make up deficits in resourcing, particularly as demand rises in children’s services and adult social care. I do not understand why it should take 15 months from the announcement in March this year of some extra central funding for adult social care to the production of a Green Paper in the summer of next year to discuss the problems of adequate funding for adult social care. I think that the problem is much more urgent than that.

To take another example of things happening too slowly, the 20% increase which is to be permitted for planning fees was debated in your Lordships’ House many months ago. There is a demand now for additional planning expenditure, so I wish government could work a bit more quickly in dealing with some of the real problems on the ground.

There is a question about council tax referendum principles and the right of councils to increase council tax by the rate of inflation without a referendum. I would prefer that there were no referendum system at all and that local authorities were freed up to make the decisions they think are right in their area. In the end, they will face the verdict of voters through the ballot box. What is happening is that the Government are increasing council tax further. As I understand it, an extra 1% is to be permitted without a referendum so that, in practice, the rate of inflation is met at least in the next year. This is putting the cost of supporting national services on to the council tax payer. I am not convinced—and I said the same thing last year—that this is the right way to go. Poorer authorities, in particular, have a lower council tax base, so if the aim is to redistribute, simply charging extra through council tax to pay for services in the more deprived authorities seems not to be the right way to go.

Finally, can the Minister confirm that the Government intend to produce a model which is fair? The words “fair funding” were used a great deal this time last year. I very much hope that those words will continue to be used. For funding to be fair, council tax payers must also have fair demands on their wallets. Will the Minister bear that in mind? I hope that, for the rest of this Parliament, the Government will not simply load council tax so that local government receives more complaints because their council has been underfunded by central government for a considerable time.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords—

Grenfell Tower and Building Safety

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 18th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord raises an interesting and fair point—that does seem a lot of legal teams. I accept that. Some of them are helping the Grenfell victims, which is something that the Government have ensured—that there is proper legal representation for the Grenfell victims and survivors. Noble Lords would accept that that is important. The inquiry has only just started. It will be far-reaching. It is right that it should be. It obviously has to follow due process. On the Government’s role, I have mentioned that the Prime Minister is looking at the way the inquiry should take proper account of local opinion. We will no doubt discuss that with Sir Martin Moore-Bick in the light of how he responds and what his thinking is on a consultative panel.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I remind the House of my registered interests. In the interim report, Dame Judith Hackitt says that,

“I am aware that some building owners and landlords are waiting for direction from this review on what materials should be used to replace cladding that has been identified as inadequate. I would urge them not to wait but to consider what materials have already been identified and tested as safe”.

Given that the Government have accepted all the recommendations of the interim report, is it the case that all such works undertaken by all local housing authorities with high-rise blocks will be deemed by the Government to be essential works and therefore will be funded by them? There is a problem in that the Government have offered to pay for essential works, as I understand it, but not for additional works. As a consequence, a lot of bilateral discussions are going on with local housing authorities. Would it not be better for the Government to define what are essential works and what might be deemed additional works so that there can be a public debate about this? As of now, the interim report of Dame Judith Hackitt has indicated that people should get on with the job of making their buildings safe using materials which have been deemed, after testing, to be safe.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for that question. The Government accept all the recommendations of Dame Judith Hackitt’s interim report that were directed towards the Government; of course, many recommendations are directed elsewhere, and we cannot accept those on behalf of other bodies. Obviously, we urge local authorities to be pre-emptive and respond in relation to the recommendations made to them. We have been very clear that finance should not stand in the way of necessary work, which remains our position. We are open to looking at any reasonable application in relation to that—as I have indicated, we are indeed doing so.

Homelessness: Emergency Housing

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Thursday 7th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, first, I pay tribute to the massive work that the noble Lord does in this area. He and I visited Sheffield together to see some project work that was going on there—the Cathedral Archer project and others are considerable projects. I agree that there are complex problems attached to this; it is not straightforward. Some of these pilots will look at the complex nature of the problem, with wraparound help for example for people who have left the armed services, who are often homeless. We are working with the Ministry of Justice as well in relation to ex-offenders who have a homelessness problem and are often rough sleeping. The noble Lord is absolutely right in the points that he makes.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords—

Social Housing

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 21st November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, in reminding the House that I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, affordable housing is the Government’s priority. That is why the Prime Minister announced a further £2 billion of funding for affordable housing, increasing the affordable homes programme budget to over £9 billion to March 2021. The programme will deliver a wide range of affordable housing, including social rent homes. Funding for social rent will be focused in areas with acute affordability pressure. The programme is flexible and the precise number of homes and tenure types will depend on the bids received. This allows providers to have the flexibility and agility to respond to local needs and markets, building the right homes in the right places.

[Lord Shipley]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. On 9 November, the Government published figures which showed that in 2016-17, only 5,380 homes for social rent were completed, amounting to just 2.5% of the total number of 217,350 new homes. That figure includes new builds and conversions. Is the Minister as disturbed as I am by those figures, given the huge length of waiting lists for social homes for rent, and what plans do the Government have to free up local authorities to get building again?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, last year—2016-17—was the best year for housebuilding for a decade. Having said that, I accept there is a significant challenge in relation to social housing. Much of that £2 billion will, as I indicated, be committed to that, and that will begin to tackle the problem. However, I agree with what the noble Lord is saying. There is a challenge there, and we are hoping to meet it—and, of course, we have a Budget tomorrow.

Grenfell Recovery Taskforce

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 6th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I remind the House that I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association. I should like to address the issue of emergency planning. It has become clear from this report that the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea did not have an operational emergency plan in place when the Grenfell fire broke out in June. The Statement does not actually tell us whether there is one in place now, or whether officers are being employed in the council to deliver one. However, on page three the report states:

“This intervention has not had the benefit of an inspection that would identify specific failings in a local authority and would precede a statutory intervention”.


Will action be taken to assess the robustness of Kensington and Chelsea’s emergency planning, which is a statutory requirement? Also, can the Minister say what advice his department will now give to other local authorities about emergency planning arising from the lessons being learned in Kensington and Chelsea?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord for his question in relation to emergency planning. He will be aware that one of the terms of reference of the inquiry is the actions of the local authority and other bodies before the tragedy, so it certainly will be picked up by the inquiry. Further to that, what we obviously want to ensure, and no doubt the House will totally support this, is that all the lessons from this are learned by all local authorities and public authorities. We would wish the message to go out and we will ensure that that happens. The messages from this are to be learned by local authorities for the future, including in relation to emergency planning along with many other issues.

Grenfell Tower

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Thursday 19th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord for his thanks to the public sector staff and very much echo those on behalf of the Government. Emergency staff, central government staff and local government staff have performed absolutely magnificently, and continue to do so around the clock. That is particularly true of staff in the National Health Service as well, who provide care for people suffering from emotional distress and others. I thank, as did the noble Lord, charities and the many volunteers for the work they have done. I also thank the public for their generous giving.

The noble Lord asked a specific question about the building works. We have been clear that the safety of buildings subject to these checks post Grenfell, whether in the public or the private sector, is absolutely paramount. We have said that we will ensure that financial restrictions will not be a barrier to essential work being carried out. That would mean, most typically, the lifting of borrowing restrictions on councils. That is what we have in mind. As I have indicated, 31 authorities have been in touch with us—we have been very clear about this and have encouraged local authorities to take up this offer, if appropriate. Six have issues that we wish to pursue, one has completed—I think, from memory, that it is Portsmouth—and we are looking at that now. I repeat that financial restrictions will not limit essential work post Grenfell.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I echo the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, on the vital role of public sector staff, who have done a magnificent job. I had not realised until a couple of weeks ago that a large number of people from all over the United Kingdom have assisted at Grenfell. We should note that contribution in what has been a very difficult time for everybody.

I wish to ask the Minister two specific questions. First, the Statement makes it clear that the Government expect councils and housing associations to fund measures that they consider essential to make a building safe. But what if the Hackitt review says that such works are essential? Will the Government step in at that point? As I understand it, there will be an interim report from the Hackitt review some time during the autumn, which may well make clear statements about what should be done.

Secondly, sprinklers have been required since 2007 in all new high-rise buildings in England over 30 metres, whereas in Scotland, the relevant height is 18 metres. Will the Minister explain why that is the case? Do the Government expect that sprinklers will be retrofitted in buildings constructed prior to 2007?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for what he said about the work carried out by the public sector. I certainly echo his thanks to people from throughout the country who have come to help at Grenfell on a voluntary basis. That shows our country at its very best.

The noble Lord asked about essential work and sprinklers. I think he raised a similar point somewhat earlier in relation to the Hackitt review. As I said then, having set up the review to look at building regulations and fire safety—it will obviously look at sprinklers, and the inquiry will doubtless want to look at that as well—I do not think we should prejudge what it will come up with. If it recommends that something essential be done, clearly, the Government will take that very seriously—I cannot imagine it being otherwise—and that would include points relating to retrofitting.

On the difference with Scotland and the devolution element, I know from a previous life that if you have devolved systems, policies may diverge, sometimes for very good reasons. Therefore, I will not tread on any toes by pontificating on something I am not clear about, except to say that these things are sometimes quite different.

Property Agents: Registration

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Wednesday 18th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Baroness, who I know understands the consumer sector and certainly knows this area well. I am grateful for her constructive contribution. I had not spotted that my noble friend Lady Hanham is in her place. It is a great pleasure to see her and I fully acknowledge the massive role that she has played in this matter.

On the point about management companies, the noble Baroness is right. I know something about company law and how companies are often used as a way of circumventing, sometimes intentionally and, in fairness, sometimes accidentally, obligations and occasionally rights that are bestowed. That should not be happening, so I am happy to undertake that we will look at how to ensure that it does not in this area. I also reiterate her point about the sector’s welcome for this development —indeed, the welcome it has already had. I will be getting them on to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, to make sure that some of that enthusiasm rubs off. It is important that we move forward together in this area.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, can the Minister clarify whether the scope of the Statement includes arm’s-length management organisations, which manage local authority housing? I should remind the House that I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association. ALMOs provide services to those who have exercised the right to buy, particularly in blocks of flats. I think the Statement is about managing and letting agents, but it does state that it is also about protecting consumers. The Statement says that the Government are asking everyone who is paying service charges to comment, which implies that ALMOs are included. This is a very important issue, which would benefit from ministerial clarification as soon as possible.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, it is important to state, as I think I have, that this is very much rooted in the private rented sector, so it is on private sector rented management agents that we are expecting contributions. However, within that there is considerable scope for people to give us their views on all the issues relating to transparency, redress and so on. We look forward to a thoroughgoing review of the sector and to receiving a considerable response by the end of November so that we can respond in a timely way. Then, with the approval and support of the House, we will work together to move things forward.

Home Ownership

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 17th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am certainly not going to deny the population growth. The facts are there for people to see. That is undoubtedly the case. But it is not a question of simply saying that there is too much demand and we need to stop immigration. The noble Lord did not suggest that, I know, but that would not be the way of proceeding. We have all sorts of skills shortages in many parts of the economy and we have to take account of those when we plan for population growth in the country.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that Help to Buy has assisted quite a number of young people to buy their first home, but is he aware of the research which now shows that Help to Buy is actually helping to increase house prices, putting home ownership beyond the reach of many more people?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord alludes to the need to ensure that younger people can buy their own homes. That is indeed very important. It is part of the intergenerational question that I referred to. The Government have many schemes that will assist people. Notably, lifetime ISAs are making a considerable difference now. Yes, it is a challenge and something we are looking at. The evidence he spoke of is actually ambiguous—it is not clear that that is the case—but we are looking at ways of encouraging younger people into the market because it is important that we do so.

Fire Safety

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 9th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Baroness makes an interesting and fair point. The application is made separately in relation to housing associations but exactly the same yardstick is used. Once again, we will not allow financial difficulties to stand in the way of doing the essential work. I do not know of any housing association which has made an application that has been turned down. I do not think that that is the case. If I am wrong about that, I will write to noble Lords.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I remind the House of my registered interests. The Minister has just said that no applications have been turned down but at the weekend it was reported in the media that Nottingham City Council’s request to install sprinklers inside flats and communal areas in 13 towers had been turned down because, according to the Housing Minister:

“The measures you outline are additional rather than essential”.


Given that there is a public inquiry and, separately, a building regulations review, if either or both of those reviews conclude that works to fit sprinklers are essential, will the Minister guarantee that the Government will fund them?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes a fair point. The position at the moment is that nothing essential has been turned down—I checked that with officials today. Clearly, an inquiry and a review of building safety regulation and fire safety are ongoing. It would make a material difference if one of those were to come forward with something that is essential forthwith. We will look at that situation. I do not think that is an unfair response. It is something that could happen and, clearly, in the light of changed circumstances we would have to look at that anew.

Local Housing Need

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Thursday 14th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I remind the House that I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association.

It is good that councils will be undertaking a more accurate assessment of housing needs in their area and working across boundaries with neighbouring authorities—perhaps better than occurs in some places. The further support through the capacity fund is welcome, although I suspect that it may prove not to be enough, but no doubt the Government will keep that under review.

The Statement goes so far but when it says that,

“we need a proper understanding of exactly how many homes are needed and where”,

there is something missing. We need to know also what tenure they ought to be. Are they for sale, and at what kind of price range? Are they for rent? Are they to be affordable or are they to be homes for social rent? A major failing in the Statement is that it does not address the issue of finance. I will come back to that in a moment.

I am interested, if the Minister happens to know, in how much the expensive consultants using their own methodologies have actually wasted. Presumably there is a figure in the department which would indicate to us how much money has been spent by consultants who are not using common methodologies. It should be a matter of concern if public money is being spent for purposes that may not be giving us a clear result. But the Statement ends by saying:

“The result is an opaque mishmash of different figures that are consistent only in their complexity”.


We need to know more about that, because the figures that are being used for planning purposes need to be reliable.

Perhaps the Minister will explain why the four times average earning planning figure is being used rather than some other number. Presumably it has been carefully worked out but another number could be more appropriate. The Government may find that they need to keep under constant review whether the three stages of assessment are actually working. They may do, but the consultation will reveal whether or not they actually do.

Is it necessary for planning authorities to have 12 months,

“to set out exactly how they are working with counterparts across their housing market area”?

In some cases they already are; in other cases where they are not, they should be doing it a great deal more quickly than in 12 months. If there was to be a faster figure, I would want to support that.

The Government have come out with the figure of 266,000 homes per year as the starting point for local plans across England. I just draw the Minister’s attention to the report by the Economic Affairs Committee of your Lordships’ House, which said that it should be 300,000 a year—after a great deal of work. Perhaps the Minister could explain whether 300,000 is the Government’s target. Presumably, to hit 1.5 million over five years, as the Statement also indicates will occur by 2022, it is closer to 300,000 a year. Unless the financial arrangements are sorted out to enable local authorities and others to build, particularly for social rent, a problem is going to arise because I do not think you can build 1.5 million houses to sell. Whether it is for a form of shared ownership or whatever, in the end we simply need more social homes for rent.

The Statement makes it clear that:

“These measures alone will not fix our broken housing market”.


That is absolutely true. But the Statement does not go on to tell us why that is. But the reason is because the financial arrangements are not in place to do it. Earlier today in Questions, I cited the National Audit Office report on homelessness, which cost local authorities £1.1 billion in 2015-16. That would have provided 30,000 new affordable homes—not necessarily homes for social rent. It is clear to me that the broken housing market will not be fixed only through changes to the planning system. The root of the problem is that the cost of renting is too high and not enough social housing is being built. The Government are at serious risk of not delivering the 1 million new homes by 2020 and the further 500,000 by 2022.

Finally, the Minister said a great deal about the regional spatial strategy. There were problems with the regional spatial strategy, but it was not quite as bad as the Statement made out. This new approach may be better, but it is still slightly top-down. I draw the Minister’s attention to a report published recently by Homes for the North, which looks at a regional approach to the provision of housing and identifying housing need. What is particularly interesting in its statement that 500,000 homes are needed over a 10-year period across the north of England is that the work is being done in conjunction with Transport for the North; in other words, there is an integrated planning system, not officially in place but unofficially in place, which I think is going to help identify need. If the Minister has not read the report, Future Housing Requirements for the North, I hope he will endeavour to do so.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Shipley, for their contributions. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, was keen to tell us that he was not going to bang on the Dispatch Box but then went for a metaphorical bang on the Dispatch Box before he got out of his first sentence, I think, on the Housing and Planning Act 2016, which is a routine approach of his, I know. I take issue with him on the housing White Paper. This was widely welcomed, including by many people in the Labour Party, certainly in the other place, as being radical and forward-looking. I am not sure I would go along with his uncharacteristically churlish approach. I also remind him that 333,000 new homes have been built since 2010. On the local authority housing situation, as a Government or as part of a Government in the past five years, we have built more than double the amount of local authority housing that Labour did in 13 years. We all have challenges to face but these are irrefutable facts.

I remind noble Lords that this is a consultation. This is not the definitive word. We are opening this for consultation and the consultation is open until 9 November. I do not want to say, “This is definitely what we are going to do”. We are consulting on many of the issues that noble Lords have understandably raised. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, asked when this would take effect. I appreciate that there is a lot to take in in the documents but we have indicated that 1 April 2018 is the date we are looking at, or later if the National Planning Policy Framework is altered. It is whichever of those two dates is the later but of course we will want to take account of the consultation, which is not ending until nearly halfway through November. I am sure noble Lords would expect us to do just that.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, also asked about what happens if local authorities do not agree with that approach. Let us presume that it goes forward after consultation in a very similar form—though, as I say, the consultation is open. If the local authority does not like a particular figure, or wants to revise it because of green belt or an area of outstanding natural beauty in its area, the policy will then go, in the normal way, as in every case, to examination by the planning inspector, who could disagree with it. That decision will be the definitive decision unless there is judicial review, if the planning inspector misdirects himself in law. There is a process there for independently ensuring that the agreed figure is carried forward.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for his comments on common ground and working across boundaries in the housing market areas. He questioned why the period is 12 months. I anticipate that some local authorities will say that the objective is challenging. Although we are always tempted to go more quickly, some local authorities may have not one, but various, boundaries to cross, perhaps working with other authorities to the east, west, south, and so on. It may be a taller order than is immediately apparent.

The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, also raised the issue of consultancy costs. Our workings on that show that, on average, each local authority is spending around £50,000 on consultancies. We are not suggesting that that is wrong—certainly it is intra vires within the present system—but we think that the system we are recommending will be simpler and not need those consultancies, because it will essentially be a mathematical formula. I am not suggesting that that money has been illegally spent, but it could be saved. We are proposing a uniform approach. I do not think it is top down in the way that was suggested, in the sense that we will still be giving local areas key decisions on whether to disagree with the approach, and so on. Nevertheless, it will provide a uniformity of approach. Four times average earnings is a formula we have adopted, but the consultants at the consultation may throw up other suggestions.

The noble Lord referred to our existing targets and suggested they are challenging. I accept that they are: 1 million new homes by 2020 and 1.5 million, so another half a million, between 2020 and 2022. Those will not all be homes to purchase—I correct the noble Lord on that point—some of them certainly will be for rent. The White Paper refers to the need to get the social housing sector moving as well. We are of the view that this needs a mixed approach. The figure of 266,000 may well be exceeded. We may find—we hope—that some local authorities will want to go further. They will have to justify that again when the plan goes for examination, but they could well go further, so this figure would therefore be a baseline.

The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, also referred to other issues that should be integrated. I fully accept that, and we expect to work alongside the national infrastructure framework and the £2.3 billion that we have allotted to help achieve that. I think I have covered the points that the noble Lords raised but, as always, I will write to them after the Statement concludes to pick up any points I have missed and perhaps to answer any detailed questions.

Housing

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Thursday 14th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I did not have the privilege of hearing the contribution that the noble Earl refers to but, of course, the Government very much do not want people living in emergency accommodation. However, we understand the position of many people who do not want to move from emergency accommodation into temporary accommodation and then into permanent accommodation. It is a complex issue. In response to his broader point about the need for social housing, this is again referenced in the White Paper and we are committed to working on it. He will know that our delivery of local authority housing over the past six years bears comparison with local authority housing in the previous 13 years under a Labour Government. However, there is still much to do.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I refer the House to my entry in the register of interests. Will the Minister comment on the National Audit Office report published yesterday, which finds that in 2015-16 local authorities spent more than £1.1 billion on homelessness and that more than three-quarters of this—£845 million—was spent on temporary accommodation? Is he aware that that money would have built 30,000 new affordable homes?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I acknowledge the work done by the National Audit Office and obviously we will consider its report seriously. The noble Lord is right that we need to ensure that money is spent on housing rather on dealing with homelessness. In short, prevention is better than cure. We are aware of that and take it seriously. However, as he will know, we are committed to 1 million new homes by 2020 and another 500,000 in the two years after that. That is a considerable increase on what we have achieved as a country over the last 10, 15, even 20 years. There is much still to do but we are getting there.

Housing: Social and Affordable Rents

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 11th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord raises an interesting point. Affordable housing is at about 80% of market rates. That is the rough assessment.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I remind the House of my entry in the register of interests. Is the Minister aware that the number of government-funded new homes built for social rent fell in 2016-17 to just 1,102? Does he agree that there is a much bigger role for local government in driving forward the building of social housing? Will the Government lift the cap on borrowing so that local authorities can build a great deal more social homes for rent?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord will be aware that there is a difference between social housing and social rents. The amount of social housing is something to which we have committed in the White Paper, and we are looking at that. As I indicated, we are discussing the situation in London with the London mayor. In the meantime, most social housing—about 94%, I think—is at social rents. The noble Lord referred to the borrowing limit. At the moment, there is plenty of headroom for local authorities in that regard, and there is no indication that it needs raising. We are obviously alive to the fact that in the future that might be the case but it certainly is not at the moment.

Grenfell Tower and Fire Safety: Update

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Thursday 20th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I remind the House that I, too, am a vice-president of the Local Government Association. I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement and for the promise of regular further updates over the summer. We join in the thanks to all the rescue services for their work. This was a devastating but avoidable catastrophe, and we need to get to the truth of what happened and guarantee the highest level of support for the community.

There is clearly a need to find workable terms of reference for the inquiry, but I have concluded that we also need a mechanism for the parallel issues of the supply of affordable housing, how tenants are treated and provision for displaced and affected residents, with the same level of public involvement and the same status and respect. I hope that the Government might agree with that and find a means of doing it.

The Statement confirms that the independent expert advisory panel on building safety, whose work is critical and urgent, is undertaking a new system of testing ACM panels, which is clearly needed. We have heard that the first results are due next week. There has been a catastrophic failure in building control, either in the regulations themselves or in their implementation—or both. We need to know urgently which it is and then implement actions across the country to meet the recommendations made.

I will raise two issues, the first around emergency planning and the second around other towers and testing, both mentioned in the Statement. Two weeks ago, I asked a Written Question of the Minister, to which I got a reply yesterday. My question was whether Her Majesty’s Government,

“plan to audit the emergency plans of local authorities to ensure that they are up-to-date and robust”.

The reply I got yesterday said:

“The Government currently does not plan to audit local authorities’ emergency plans. Local authorities, as category 1 responders under the Civil Contingency Act 2004, are subject to the full set of civil protection duties and are best placed to develop appropriate emergency plans based on local risks and needs”.


Clearly, it did not work in the case of Kensington and Chelsea. Might the Minister look at that again? The Government should not assume that no other local authority has similar problems. There is a responsibility on central government to make sure that local authorities’ emergency plans are in place and robust.

It is clear that the Government have accepted that Kensington and Chelsea cannot yet take over the recovery operation by itself, and that when it does, it will be under the supervision of the independent Grenfell recovery task force. That is the right decision, but I hope that the Government will look carefully at this to ensure that the situation that occurred in Kensington and Chelsea cannot happen elsewhere.

On the issue of other towers and testing, the Statement says that,

“no more than 228 local authority and housing association residential blocks over 18 metres tall have been fitted with aluminium composite material cladding”.

That is a very high number indeed. The first question the Government need to answer speedily is whether or not the material was within building regulations—in other words, large numbers of buildings have been using this material, but should they have done so? Secondly, can the Minister explain why the height of 18 metres is so material? I am two metres tall; 18 metres is nine times my height. I am not clear where this figure has come from and why this material is deemed to be safe on high-rise buildings under 18 metres high, bearing in mind that none of the material in the blocks so far has passed the limited combustibility test that has taken place.

Finally, the Government have made it clear that when the results are available to the new system of testing they will be shared,

“first with local authorities and housing associations”,

which are immediately concerned, and,

“with the local fire and rescue service”.

Towards the end of the Statement it says that the Secretary of State has “the power to direct” a local housing authority,

“to consider these test results as part of their duty to keep housing conditions under review”.

There is then a statement that the power may well be used and enforcement action could be,

“taken against a landlord if a fire risk is not dealt with”.

Of course, that would include all fire risks within a building. I am not sure that what the Statement says is strong enough in law, because it indicates that the local housing authority has the final decision. It is not good enough simply to direct an authority to consider the test results. They should be implementing the test results, and if resource is required to do that, Her Majesty’s Government may well have to find the resource to do it.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Shipley, for their contributions. I will try to deal with the various points they made. I thank them very much for echoing the thanks to our dedicated public servants across the piece for all they have done and the support that we continue to give them. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, mentioned the fire brigade in particular, and I am happy to say how important its work is and how much we as a Government respect and value what it does. I am grateful to both noble Lords for the continuing support, because this issue unites us and does not divide us.

I will try to deal with some of the points that were raised. First, the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, spoke about the quality of accommodation and the issue of rehoming. We have to respect the trauma that these families have been through, which often makes it difficult for them to make a decision, even over a period of weeks, about their accommodation. In many cases they are not certain where they want to settle and we respect that. We have made offers of temporary accommodation to all families. Some have taken those offers up and some have not, but from what I can see I am certainly satisfied that the accommodation has been of an outstanding quality in all cases.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, spoke about the task force and the work of gold command being vital—I absolutely agree with that—and the importance of the council winning back trust. I thank him for what he said about how the leader of the council, Elizabeth Campbell, is trying to win back trust. She is reaching out genuinely to all people who have been victims and to the opposition parties. That is certainly the approach that the Government want and support. The noble Lord talked about outstanding samples that needed testing. The number is actually seven; perhaps the noble Lord’s figure is slightly out of date. It has come tumbling down over the last 48 hours, so seven tower blocks—

Grenfell Tower: Rehousing Update

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Wednesday 5th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Baroness raises several points. I understand that there is no time limit on discretionary payments being made. I reiterate the point made in the Statement and by the Prime Minister previously that accommodation is being offered on terms at least as generous as those available previously. That means that no bedroom tax would be charged if it applied previously. Charitable payments will not have an effect on benefits, and there will be no sanctions.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for repeating the Statement, in which he confirmed that,

“everyone whose home was destroyed by the fire will be guaranteed a new home on the same terms as the one they lost”.

The Statement then goes on to clarify what that means:

“Paying the same rent, with the same level of security and in the same area”.


I suggest to the Minister that there should be a fourth definition: “with at least the equivalent furniture, fittings and decoration at no cost to the tenant”.

I raise this because there are issues around whose insurance policies will pay for furniture and fittings. In my view, that should lie not with the tenant but with the landlord. Even though the Statement overall seems to imply that it includes the substantial cost of furniture and fittings, for the avoidance of doubt the Government should be very clear about this. I just remind the House of my vice-presidency of the Local Government Association.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Shipley. I have some sympathy with that point. Indeed, when I read the Statement I made a similar point. I think it is inherent in the Statement but I am happy to confirm that not only should the accommodation be at least as good and with as many bedrooms—I understand that in many cases it will be more—but also the furniture and fittings should be of equivalent standard. Perhaps one could go too far in setting that out but that should encapsulate the point the noble Lord wanted.

Update on the Grenfell Tower Fire and Fire Safety

Debate between Lord Shipley and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 26th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend very much indeed. The Lakanal inquest in 2009 that he referred to suggested that the building regulations needed simplifying. That work has not yet started. We were about to start that when an election intervened but, clearly, we have to learn the lessons in relation to building regs and fire safety measures. We will be setting up a public inquiry, which I am sure will have an interim report that will come forward with some urgent findings. But I agree with my noble friend that this clearly is in purview.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, perhaps I might ask the Minister to say something further about the private sector. I remind the House that I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association, although it is in no way involved in my asking this question. He has referred twice to the private sector. If I recall his wording, he said, first, that private sector companies should do the checks in blocks that they own and, secondly, that the testing facilities will be open to them. However, where a block is in the private sector and the building control function has been undertaken by the private sector, does the Minister agree that it is very important that checks are compulsory and not advisory?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord. Perhaps I may track back on to something that I should have mentioned earlier in relation to those blocks that have, after testing, been found not to be compliant. In those 75 cases, my department will nominate a specific employee to liaise about the necessary action. That is in relation to all those public sector or social housing blocks that have been identified. In relation to the private sector blocks, subject to the same sort of constraints at 18 metres and above, we have been in contact with all the private sector landlords and are recommending that they test the cladding. It is not compulsory; we are making a facility available to them without charge, but those are not part of the 600 blocks which I mentioned. I am sure that we will want to follow up on that but, as things stand, it is not compulsory. We are focusing on the social rented sector at the moment because that seems the right thing to do.