Stronger Towns Fund

Lord Shipley Excerpts

Tuesday 5th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I am grateful to my noble friend for reminding us of the importance of recognising that a significant amount of public money is coming forward here. One thinks of looking gift horses in the mouth. I am sure communities up and down the country will be keen to take advantage of the money available. It is also true to say that there are many other programmes. I have mentioned some; the mayoral combined authorities are obviously getting funding. I take this opportunity to recommend that Sheffield gets its act together as well, to help it ensure that it gets a share of the action as a mayoral combined authority. There is also the Coastal Communities Fund and the Future High Streets Fund, and so on.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Pinnock asked the Minister about defining the word “town”, which I do not quite think he did. However, it is an important question. It may be defined in the prospectus but if the prospectus is not consulted upon beforehand, that needs to be clear. Is the Minister in a position to define a town and whether there is a minimum population threshold? Is it simply anywhere that is not a city or a village? In which case, if a city is a cathedral city outside a combined authority—I am thinking of cities such as Carlisle, Gloucester and Hereford—can it bid into a fund which is for towns when they themselves are cathedral cities?

Will the Minister confirm that towns inside city regions with metro mayors and the resources of combined authorities’ additional funding can nevertheless be part of the scheme? Or will those areas—I am thinking in particular of the county of Northumberland—find their funding cut because the combined authority has been receiving more money?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I find that last question much easier than the others. Certainly, towns such as Berwick—one that is having elections this year would be eligible—although they are in a metro area.

On the definition of a town and whether it is anywhere that is not a city or a village, I know from visiting the cathedrals of England that not all of them are in cities, which adds to the complexity. Chelmsford is now a city, but it was not until recently; Southwell is certainly not a city, and so on. I do not think that it is as simple as the noble Lord put it in his question. I do not want to give a definition. Within mayoral combined authority areas, towns which are visibly towns and not cities will certainly be eligible.

Help to Buy: Housebuilders’ Profits

Lord Shipley Excerpts

Wednesday 27th February 2019 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Shipley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they will take to restrict the profits being made by housebuilders through the Help to Buy scheme.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

Schemes such as Help to Buy equity loan have helped to deliver 222,000 new homes in 2017-18, the highest level since 2007-08. However, we expect builders to act responsibly. We expect all housing developers to deliver good quality housing, to deliver it on time, and to treat purchasers of new-build homes fairly.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

I thank the Minister for his reply. He will be aware that yesterday, the housebuilder Persimmon declared annual profits of over £1 billion, having built 16,449 homes. That is £66,000 per house built, with half the sales funded through Help to Buy. That represents almost a trebling in profit per house since Help to Buy was introduced in 2013. Does the Minister accept research concluding that Help to Buy has led to house prices being 15% higher than they would be compared to similar properties that were not eligible—in turn, fuelling profits? What plans do the Government have to clamp down on huge bonuses arising from the increased profits, made from the public purse under Help to Buy?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I should point out to the noble Lord that the Help to Buy scheme was initiated under the coalition Government. Some of the figures he has quoted were made by his leader, the right honourable Member for Twickenham, Vince Cable, who is in a much better position than I am to know how successful the scheme has been in delivering houses. It has delivered over 190,000, and he was a Cabinet Minister when it started. Ensuring we get value for money is of course important, and we are focused on that. Regarding directors’ salaries, there are provisions in the Companies Act 2006 relating to directors’ duties. Section 173 includes a complex corporate code that governs listed companies. Persimmon, which he has referenced, realised how unacceptable the situation was and the chairman, the chairman of the remuneration committee and the chief executive resigned. That is an indication of the realisation, which I share, that it was inappropriate.

Housing: Private Rented Sector

Lord Shipley Excerpts

Tuesday 19th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend will be aware that the borrowing cap for local authorities has been raised, which undoubtedly boosts the possibility of housing by local authorities, as he indicated. As I said, there are challenges out there, but I would caution against assuming that all older people do not want to rent and that all of them are unhappy with their rental. That is not the case.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that the Government pay out some £21 billion a year in housing benefit. Does he agree that this huge sum is the consequence of high rents caused, in turn, by a shortage in the supply of homes to rent? Would it not be better to invest in social housing, using future savings on the housing benefit bill to help fund building more homes for social rent?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that there is a problem with supply. As he well knows, that problem existed in the coalition years as well and we are seeking to address it. Last year was the best one for new homes for over a decade. I agree that we need more social housing. That is the principal reason why the borrowing cap for local authorities was lifted.

Construction Products (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Shipley Excerpts

Wednesday 13th February 2019 Grand Committee

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I sympathise with the view of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, about the volume of statutory instruments that we have to consider, the lack of time to consider them and, thereby, the lack of time to do justice to them. I shall, nevertheless, comment on the statutory instrument. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, has raised a number of crucial issues on the possibility of divergence to which we need to be alert.

As the Minister said, the statutory instrument is to come into force only if there is a no-deal outcome on 29 March. It aims to preserve the current outcomes—that is, properly licensed and tested construction products, tradeable without barriers across all 28 EU countries, as far as possible. However, the only one it can actually guarantee, it does: that any approved EU kitemarked products will continue to be recognised as compliant under UK law.

It gives the Secretary of State the power to set new UK standards for products in future, either those that are purely UK-tested or by simply adopting future EU standards. Given that up to a quarter of all components and materials used in construction are imported from the EU, it is clearly hugely in the interests of the UK industry to maintain common standards, and it is unlikely that it would ever welcome a divergence from whatever was the current EU standard. In practice, any UK manufacturer wanting a test certificate for a new product would want it to comply with the EU version of the testing and carry a kitemark, so that it was accepted across the EU and the UK thereafter, whereas there is no automatic right for our tests to be accepted across the Channel, limiting our export potential. Inevitably, the Government will have to set up a UK system, but in real life nobody will want to use it. It is therefore wrong to say that there is no impact and so no need for an impact assessment, although that is the conclusion the Government seem to have reached.

It is not that there are deficiencies in the drafting of the statutory instrument; it is yet another shocking example of the complete waste of time that all this work on no deal is producing—for the Government, for Parliament and for the industry. If, by any chance, there was no deal, the additional cost of setting up a system parallel to the EU which practically no one would ever volunteer to use is certainly not a minor matter. I hope that when he responds, the Minister will comment on that and, I hope, express his agreement with that conclusion.

I raise one further issue, which relates to the responsibility for enforcement before and after. It will lie with trading standards, mostly decimated by funding cuts. What estimate have the Government made of the increased workload for trading standards as a consequence of the introduction of the proposed new regime?

[Lord Beecham (Lab)]

My Lords, I concur with many of the points made by preceding speakers about this process and this instrument as an example of the secondary legislation on which we are having to spend so much time.

In the light of the Grenfell disaster, the subject of these regulations assumes greater importance than might otherwise have been the case. It is therefore even more unsatisfactory that no impact assessment has been published. What assurances can the Minister give that, in the absence of a deal, there will continue to be comparisons for industry and the public as to the performance and safety of products from other countries? Will the Government ensure that EU regulations are constantly kept under review and that steps will be taken to ensure that our standards keep pace with increased safety considerations applied within the EU? In the absence of an impact assessment, has there been any conclusion on the potential cost to businesses as a result of the change? The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, made that point.

What will be the process for designating standards under the new regime? Will parliamentary scrutiny of such new or amended standards take place? If so, will that happen under the “made affirmative” procedure? What form of consultation will be applied? In particular, will the British Standards Institution remain a member of the European Committee for Standardization? The Explanatory Memorandum declares:

“Existing European harmonised standards will become UK ‘designated standards’”,


and will be “identical”. Is that to be a permanent position? If not, what timescale is anticipated within which they may be reviewed or changed? What cognisance will be taken of any changes in the EU standards during that period, and by what methods?

Finally, is it to be a requirement that manufacturers must affix a UK mark to products? If so, to what extent have the Government received assurances that such a mark will suffice to satisfy buyers in the European Union or elsewhere?

Buckinghamshire (Structural Changes) (Modification of the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007) Regulations 2019

Lord Shipley Excerpts

Wednesday 13th February 2019 Grand Committee

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a long-term resident of Buckinghamshire, although I am not directly involved in any of the bodies listed by the Minister. I have been aware of the debates and discussions that have been ongoing in Buckinghamshire for some time, and am slightly surprised that I am alone in this place as anybody who has direct knowledge of what is happening there. The House is full of Buckinghamshire residents, I am happy to say, many of whom serve in the Government, and I would have thought that one or two of them might have been present to represent their views on this interesting proposition.

If I follow the Minister correctly, there are three columns under which the Government intend to make their decision—first and primarily on whether there is voter engagement and confidence in sufficient support across the population of Buckinghamshire. That is, whether the bodies representative of activity in that county—the LEPs and various other bodies mentioned by the Minister—have supported the issues, particularly those directly funded by and operated through one or more of the councils. There is this rather wonderful phrase “credible geography”, which supports the decisions that are likely to be made.

The Minister has done a very fair job in trying to represent the confusion in this process. He was right to point out—it is worth looking at the Explanatory Memorandum in some detail on this—that there is a great deal of support for unitarisation in Buckinghamshire. I do not dispute that, but there is rather less agreement on what form it should take. He mentioned that the district councils were primarily concerned about there being two unitary councils in Buckinghamshire. I am delighted to see that another resident of that county, the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner of Kimble, has emerged from the dark recesses of your Lordships’ House. He will no doubt support me later—or he may not.

The variety of responses took the same sort of approach—that 87% of representations support unitarisation in principle—but the options were split again. Although it saw more support for single unitary operations, the public sector provider similarly highlights a lot of the difficulties that will arise when unitarisation takes place. On this first leg, I wonder whether there will be any opportunity to reflect further on this. Yes, all the right processes have been gone through, but the results are so disparate in how they line up to solutions that it is difficult to see how the Government can make the decision on the basis of that set of responses.

The second point concerns the process of employment in other involved bodies. I have touched on this slightly in my response to the Government’s first column. The business community—various issues are raised in paragraphs 10.9, 10.10 and 10.11 of the Explanatory Memorandum on this—is not universally in favour of a single unitary structure. I wonder how the Government have drawn that conclusion.

My final point is on the credible geography. The dog that has not barked in this debate is the question of Milton Keynes. In northern Buckinghamshire, Milton Keynes is a burgeoning separate institution with its own governance and practice; with no real logic in a longer-term perspective, it is constantly differentiated from the rest of Buckinghamshire. The town is growing. Under the circumstances in which it was set up, it is an efficient and well-run operation. It has plans for expansion, and has been picked out on many occasions by the Government for sustainable development in the creation of more houses and better communications, particularly as a link on the corridor between Oxford and Cambridge. Despite that, it is completely ignored in this reorganised structure. Would the Minister like to comment on that?

It seems extraordinary that, with such focus on its future growth, such a concentration of people and economic activity is ignored in the structure of the county in which it operates. As for credible geography, it seems absurd to have a county that is long and thin. Journeys from north to south in Buckinghamshire are extraordinarily difficult; I made one this morning and it took me almost an hour and a half to get to the north of the county from where I live in the south. We are talking about ignoring one of the biggest economic operators within it. One need only look at a map with an uncritical eye to see that the south of the county points more towards Windsor and the London fringes. All the communication lines that people use for commuting—it is a commuter area—are centred on and work into the area. Yet the north looks to the Midlands and gets around Milton Keynes in a way that is antipathetic to the way that local government structures will be working.

The Government have obviously decided that they want to take this forward. As the Minister said, there will be a chance to discuss the draft before a final decision is made; perhaps that will be the more appropriate moment at which to look at it. But will there be another opportunity, between now and when this appears in the Chamber, for him to reflect on whether other issues need to be brought into this equation? Is he confident that the earlier pillars of voter engagement and user experience have not been slightly undervalued in the discussions so far, particularly in light of the credible geography issue?

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, it is fairly clear that there are two views in Buckinghamshire on how to establish a unitary structure. It is not for me to support one view or another; that is a matter for the people of Buckinghamshire.

The debate we are about to have will be helpful, but I would first like to pick up a comment made by the Minister when introducing the proposal. It relates to the population figure that should apply for a unitary council. As I recall, he said that if there were two, one would have a population of only 188,000, whereas, normally, a unitary council would be over 300,000. I can think of quite a number of unitary councils that are well under 300,000 and hover around the 180,000 to 200,000 mark. Will he comment on that? Is a new government standard being applied? There is a certain logic to it: 188,000 is a lot of people and may well be deemed a sufficient number.

I noted two things in the Explanatory Memorandum. One is a comment in paragraph 10.11 by the commissioner for children’s services in Buckinghamshire, who,

“indicated a preference for a single unitary as opposed to two unitary councils; and was strongly opposed to ‘any … [local government reorganisation] proposal which would break-up (disaggregate) the existing children’s services structures in Buckinghamshire’”.

That is clearly a professional view of the best structure for that area. There may well be other similar professional views. If so, can the Minister draw our attention to them? We have comments from a number of public services and businesses, but there will be others beyond those.

I also have a concern about the comments made by councillors from town and parish councils. They are,

“particularly concerned about their capacity to take on additional devolved activity in a single unitary arrangement”.

This matters greatly. One thing we have learned from unitarisation in other parts of England is that, when it happens, you need strong town and parish councils to undertake the work that inevitably is devolved from the single unitary authority. These things are not directly to do with me or your Lordships’ House, but, when talking with the town and parish councils in Buckinghamshire, I hope the Government will listen very carefully to all that is said and respond in a way that assists those councillors to do their job in the future.

UK Shared Prosperity Fund

Lord Shipley Excerpts

Monday 4th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I will make two points. The first is a relatively minor one, but lest the Order Paper appear strange, the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, did not table the Question but was cited in another question. In relation to the content of the letter that was read out, I am sure that the noble Lord is right legally. I say simply that the context of this consultation, when it happens shortly, is about ensuring that we address inequalities between communities. That is the essence of what we are looking at.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that if any meetings are held with individual MPs, the minutes of those discussions will be published immediately after they have taken place?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, that is well beyond my brief. I am not quite sure whose discussions the noble Lord is referring to. As he will be aware, many confidential discussions are held, and both MPs and Ministers respect their confidentiality. It is unthinkable that a Government Minister is breaching the law in the way that has been suggested—directly and, in some cases, indirectly—in the Chamber today. Once again—your Lordships should not need encouragement in this—noble Lords should not believe everything they read in the newspapers.

Tower Blocks: Cladding

Lord Shipley Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord for the points he has raised; I too questioned the mathematics. I will write to the noble Lord to confirm the position, but I think the other 14 are made up of hotels and other types of buildings that are not private residential buildings.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords—

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I always admire the noble Lord’s great assiduity. With regard to the other point the noble Lord made about picking up the bill, we have ruled nothing out. I agree with my noble friend Lord Porter that we are seeking to ensure that the cost of this is picked up by the owners, not the leaseholders. That is the position we are in and the position that the Secretary of State is carrying forward. As I have said, officials monitor progress in this area on a weekly basis.

[Lord Shipley]

My Lords, I remind the House of my entry in the register of interests. In repeating the Answer to this Urgent Question, the Minister referred to the waking watch that has been put in place in all high-rise buildings with ACM cladding. In the case of social housing tower blocks, will he confirm that the significant cost over many months will be paid by the owners and not loaded on to the tenants’ rents?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I understand that that is the position but if I am wrong, I will write to the noble Lord. The most important thing, as I say, is that the Government are determined that the safety of individuals comes first. As he knows, we have committed the £400 million to that, of which I think only £248 million has been deployed. There therefore remains a significant amount of money that will help in this process.

Planning: Permitted Development Rights

Lord Shipley Excerpts

Wednesday 16th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank my noble friend for his kind comments. I think he would agree that swift action is something we would want, but obviously the consultation has only just ended. We will want to bring forward legislation, dependent on the consultation and the analysis of the responses, and to do it at the earliest possible opportunity. I take very seriously what he says, but this consultation is an important one and we will be analysing those 400 responses.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I remind the House of my declaration of interests. I also remind the Minister that since 2015, 42,130 housing units in England have been converted from offices to flats without having to go through the planning system. As a consequence of that, there have been problems, such as no Section 106 agreements, a lack of affordable housing and problems around space standards. As the Government review the consultation, will they look at whether the planning system should be strengthened to prevent poor-quality conversions, given that quite a number in the last three years have been?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord mentions many important facets. I take seriously what he says about design; he will be aware that we introduced that into the National Planning Policy Framework, and it certainly cropped up in the consultation so we will be looking at it closely. I am also aware of the number of conversions from offices to residences, which has certainly put us in a much stronger position than we were on housing starts and completions, and I note that the latest figures show an increase in both. I am sure that noble Lords will share in the delight at that. I take seriously the points made by the noble Lord and we will obviously analyse the consultation responses carefully.

Tenant Fees Bill

Lord Shipley Excerpts

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 15th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I will make a few concluding remarks. It has been clear throughout that this is a Bill that we all support, and one that will deliver important changes to the private rented sector, improving lives for millions of tenants. I am grateful to all noble Lords from all parts of the House who have engaged so thoroughly and passionately during the proceedings in this House.

Specifically, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Grender, for her work to date in promoting a ban on letting fees, which has been notable. I also thank the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Shipley, for their significant contributions during our debates. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, who is not in her place at present, for helping to ensure that the client money protection regulations work as intended and the considerable work that she has done on this, as well as the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill. Finally, I thank my noble friends Lady Barran and Lady Jenkin for raising the important issues of home share schemes, which I think we all value.

I firmly believe that all the amendments made in this House strengthen the Bill and offer greater protections for tenants while not unfairly impacting on landlords and agents. I thank industry groups and local authorities for their constructive engagement and support in strengthening the Bill’s provisions and offering feedback on our draft guidance.

We will continue to work closely with stakeholders to ensure that the ban is properly communicated to tenants, landlords and agents, particularly with regard to contractual damages, which were the subject of debate on Report. I reassure the House again that there are already large amounts of case law that deal with what is appropriate in a damages case. Damages are generally not meant to do anything more than put the innocent party—“innocent party” being a legal term—back in the position they would have been had the contract not been breached. They are not a back door to default charges. I will repeat that: they are not a back door to default charges.

We are committed to working with Citizens Advice, Shelter and other industry groups to ensure that tenants fully understand their rights with regard to paying and challenging contractual damages. I know that it is in all our interests to ensure that this vital legislation becomes law as quickly as possible.

Implementation is, of course, subject to parliamentary timetables, and amendments we have made need to be considered in the other place. We also need to allow a period of time following Royal Assent to enable agents and landlords to become compliant with the new legislation. We therefore intend for the provisions of this Bill to come into force on 1 June 2019. This would mean that the ban on letting fees would apply to all new tenancies signed on or after this date.

I conclude by thanking officials who have worked diligently on this Bill and have performed massive tasks in ensuring that we are in the position we are now. I thank Becky Perks, Rosie Gray, Tim Dwyer, Nigel Bousfield, Elly-Marie Connolly, Laurence Morton, Jane Worthington and, from my own office, Lucjan Kaliniecki. I beg to move.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his statement. He said that the Bill would improve the lives of millions of tenants, and he is absolutely right. It is a much better Bill as a consequence of the close cross-party co-operation it has undergone in your Lordships’ House.

I thank the Minister for his willingness to give a great deal of time, meeting regularly with us to identify outstanding issues. From these Benches, I thank my noble friend Lady Grender, whose assiduous campaign over a substantial period has led to fruition in this Bill, which is indeed a significant milestone in the support of tenants’ rights. I also thank Sarah Pughe, in the Liberal Democrat Whips’ Office, for her help. I also extend my thanks to the Bill team and all the officials who gave us a great deal of time in recent weeks while the detail of the changes that were being made in your Lordships’ House was finalised.

We lowered the level of the deposit cap to five weeks’ rent, listed default fees on the face of the Bill, introduced greater transparency around holding deposits, removed local authorities—I declare that I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association—and those acting on behalf of local authorities from the definition of a “relevant person”, and we addressed deficiencies in the client money protection scheme, among a number of other changes. Some of those changes are very important, and enable the Minister to say that the Bill will indeed help financially a large number of tenants.

I thank the Minister for his co-operation throughout this process. The last few weeks have been very productive, making sure that the Bill will stand the test of its application.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, the Bill before us leaves this House in a much better state than when it arrived. It has had a positive consideration across the House, and I thank every Member who has contributed to our debates and discussions, bringing their expertise and ideas. We have made a real difference and, as the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, outlined, some improvements to the Bill, so we have made progress. We have certainly made a positive contribution to the rights of tenants in the private sector, and it is important that we do that. I also thank the Bill team from the department, who have been courteous, helpful and informative, and have engaged with me and my noble friend Lord Beecham at any time. I am very grateful to them for that.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, for whom I have great respect. We spend a lot of time on these Benches batting things back and forwards, and I have always found him courteous, friendly and engaging, and always willing to talk to me both inside and outside the Chamber. I also thank my noble friend Lord Beecham for his support and hard work, and I thank Rhian Jones from the opposition office. She has supported me with research and draft amendments and has helped me to understand the Bill—she understands it much better than I ever would—sending me out to battle with the right papers at the right time, fully briefed, so that I can raise things here. I am very grateful for all the work she does for us in our office, and I thank her very much for that. I am delighted that the Bill is where it is today, in a much better place.

New Home Building Programme

Lord Shipley Excerpts

Thursday 10th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend. On her last point, which is certainly a point of common sense, I think that would happen through the disabled facilities grant in that, if something is required in the way the noble Lord, Lord Jordan, referred to, it will apply to all new premises. My noble friend raises an interesting point and it shows the importance of looking in the round at high-rise blocks. People are living longer. Most accidents in the home happen to people aged 65 or above and, as one would expect, that figure accelerates as people get older. Therefore, it is a particular concern and something we need to watch like hawks.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, it was reported over the Christmas Recess that large housebuilders declared dividends of over £2 billion in 2018. Does the Minister agree that this fact sits most uncomfortably with the facts produced by RoSPA? Given the low-space standards for new homes, too many defects in new homes and the rising number of accidents, might the Government heed the clear advice of the Royal Institute of British Architects, which is calling for building regulations to be strengthened rather than depending in part on the planning system for the regulation of space standards?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the document produced by RoSPA on making homes safer through design was worked on with Berkeley Homes, so it is fair to give Berkeley a namecheck for what it does. However, the noble Lord is right that builders have a responsibility to adhere to the building regulations. We are looking at those regulations. As I said, it is clearly unacceptable that there are 6,000 deaths a year. I think that we can get that figure down and we are very keen to do so through appropriate guidance and regulations.