Illegal Migration Act: Northern Ireland

Debate between Lord Sharpe of Epsom and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Wednesday 15th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I have made it very clear—but I will say it again—that all the provisions in the Belfast/Good Friday agreement referred to in the Windsor Framework were developed specifically against the background of Northern Ireland’s unique circumstances. They do not concern, and should not be brought into, the complex debate on illegal migration.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, whatever the rights and wrongs of people’s views on the Rwanda Act or the Illegal Migration Act, it has always been a clear principle that immigration law is a matter for application on a UK-wide basis. This is the latest in a string of rulings in the High Court in Belfast that says that Acts of Parliament not only are incompatible with the human rights convention but can be struck down and disapplied by the Windsor Framework agreed by the Parliament of this United Kingdom. Surely the Government have to deal with the fundamental problem. They said in the Safeguarding the Union Command Paper that the Windsor Framework did not deal with anything other than trade or goods—that is clearly and totally false: there will be a people border if this continues. Will the Minister deal with the fundamental, underlying problem of the continued supremacy of EU law over vast swathes of the economy and other areas of society in Northern Ireland?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The noble Lord makes the very good point that immigration is a reserved matter and that the Government have consistently applied immigration law on a UK-wide basis. This judgment relates to the Illegal Migration Act, so it does not impact our planning or operations for Rwanda. I am afraid that I cannot speculate as to the other matters that he raised.

Immigration Update

Debate between Lord Sharpe of Epsom and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Wednesday 1st May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I completely agree with the noble Lord; of course we should. We have to monitor those statistics to make sure that the sector has what it needs, but also that the system suits the domestic issues that we have been discussing as well.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, the Minister and your Lordships will be aware of the frequent denunciations of the Government’s policy on immigration by Irish politicians. Indeed, members of the Irish Government have denounced the Rwanda policy in very derogatory terms. Yet, having done so, they now seek to return to the UK those who say they are fleeing the UK because of the Rwanda policy. It is one of the many ironies of the situation: a Government who wanted an open border in all circumstances now want to send police to the border to ensure that there are controls there, and so on and so forth.

It is not lost on many people in Northern Ireland that Brit bashing becomes very fashionable as Irish politicians head into an election, but can the Minister assure me that Northern Ireland will not become a dumping ground for people returned from the Irish Republic? Although the Irish Government talk about 80% of people coming in through Northern Ireland, they have not produced any real evidence as to the actual figures. Can we be assured that Northern Ireland will not become a dumping ground and that there will not be any people border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom? Can he also outline what the understanding is, which the Irish Taoiseach has referred to as already being in existence between the United Kingdom and the Irish Republic, about the return of people coming into the Irish Republic from the UK illegally? Can he tell us what that understanding amounts to and whether it has any force of law?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments. I would also reflect on the fact that the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, made the point relatively recently that there is no deterrent effect, but clearly that is not being represented in the facts on the ground.

I shall to an extent repeat what my honourable friend said in the other place, which is that

“this Government are resolutely opposed to a hard border on the island of Ireland”.

He said that he understood that

“the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has requested an urgent meeting with the Irish Government to seek assurances that there will be no adverse implications for the smooth operation of either the common travel area or the Good Friday agreement. That is an important meeting and he is right to seek it. I reiterate that we would welcome a returns agreement with the EU. We think it is right that we explore those opportunities and we will continue to pursue that”.

Beyond that, I am afraid I cannot comment. It would be wrong of me to comment on the stories about the Irish police and the border. Much as I would not comment on operational matters in this country, I certainly will not on those in another. Obviously, higher-level discussions are still ongoing, which would, I think, address the last part of the noble Lord’s question. I am sure there will be much more to be said about that in the coming days.