Scotland: Meeting with New First Minister

Debate between Lord Selkirk of Douglas and Lord Offord of Garvel

Wednesday 29th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, but I violently disagree with that—or maybe not violently, but I certainly disagree with it. Devolution gives Scotland the most amount of government anywhere in the world. It is a unique system of governance that allows it to have the benefit of two Governments: the UK Government for reserved matters and the Scottish Government for devolved matters. It is very simple—it is one piece of paper, with “reserved” on the left-hand side and “devolved” on the right-hand side. We must have a Government in Scotland who are prepared to work within that and to make devolution work, instead of straying into areas of reserved matters and trying to find conflict with the UK Government. If we work together, we can turbocharge Scotland.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con)]

Does the Minister accept that the biggest trade that the Scots have is with England? There are some circumstances in which co-operation can be of greater benefit than competition.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that. Some 60% of Scotland’s trade is with the rest of the United Kingdom, 20% is with the EU and 20% is international. We talk to businesses regularly, which say that they do not recognise borders. The last thing that they want is a hard border on this island. Scottish businesses want access to that market, and we would encourage the Scottish Government to respect that.

Scottish Independence

Debate between Lord Selkirk of Douglas and Lord Offord of Garvel

Wednesday 7th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The noble Lord has great knowledge of these matters. The UK Government have just announced £4 billion of new shipbuilding orders coming to the Clyde and Rosyth. It has been noted that in the last five years the naval shipyards in Scotland have built four frigates while the SNP cannot get two rusting ferries off the dock. It is very clear that we have great competence and strength in our naval shipyards. Sadly, that is not the case within the Scottish Government’s remit.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con)]

Will the Minister accept that Scotland’s greatest market is England, the scale of which is substantial? Whether Scotland can go it alone is the wrong question. The question is: wherein lies the balance of advantage? Conclusively, in my view, it is in the United Kingdom.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord; 60% of Scottish trade is with England, 20% is with the EU and 20% is international. This is part of the issue not addressed in the paper. I point to a couple of observations. The IFS has said of the paper that

“Scotland’s much higher levels of public spending … mean that it … would need to make bigger cuts to … spending or … increases to taxes”.

Richard Murphy, traditionally a pro-independence economist, said to the National that the

“currency plans are ‘so wrong’ he would vote No in a future referendum.”

A pro-independence campaigner, Robin McAlpine, commented that the prospect was dismal—Scotland has no lender of last resort under these plans and there is no solution to the border. In summary, he said the whole thing is “utter pish”. I defer to the Lord Speaker to explain to more genteel noble Lords that that is a Glaswegian euphemism for utter balderdash.