Scotland: Meeting with New First Minister

Lord Selkirk of Douglas Excerpts

Wednesday 29th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, but I violently disagree with that—or maybe not violently, but I certainly disagree with it. Devolution gives Scotland the most amount of government anywhere in the world. It is a unique system of governance that allows it to have the benefit of two Governments: the UK Government for reserved matters and the Scottish Government for devolved matters. It is very simple—it is one piece of paper, with “reserved” on the left-hand side and “devolved” on the right-hand side. We must have a Government in Scotland who are prepared to work within that and to make devolution work, instead of straying into areas of reserved matters and trying to find conflict with the UK Government. If we work together, we can turbocharge Scotland.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con)]

Does the Minister accept that the biggest trade that the Scots have is with England? There are some circumstances in which co-operation can be of greater benefit than competition.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that. Some 60% of Scotland’s trade is with the rest of the United Kingdom, 20% is with the EU and 20% is international. We talk to businesses regularly, which say that they do not recognise borders. The last thing that they want is a hard border on this island. Scottish businesses want access to that market, and we would encourage the Scottish Government to respect that.

Scottish Independence

Lord Selkirk of Douglas Excerpts

Wednesday 7th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The noble Lord has great knowledge of these matters. The UK Government have just announced £4 billion of new shipbuilding orders coming to the Clyde and Rosyth. It has been noted that in the last five years the naval shipyards in Scotland have built four frigates while the SNP cannot get two rusting ferries off the dock. It is very clear that we have great competence and strength in our naval shipyards. Sadly, that is not the case within the Scottish Government’s remit.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con)]

Will the Minister accept that Scotland’s greatest market is England, the scale of which is substantial? Whether Scotland can go it alone is the wrong question. The question is: wherein lies the balance of advantage? Conclusively, in my view, it is in the United Kingdom.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord; 60% of Scottish trade is with England, 20% is with the EU and 20% is international. This is part of the issue not addressed in the paper. I point to a couple of observations. The IFS has said of the paper that

“Scotland’s much higher levels of public spending … mean that it … would need to make bigger cuts to … spending or … increases to taxes”.

Richard Murphy, traditionally a pro-independence economist, said to the National that the

“currency plans are ‘so wrong’ he would vote No in a future referendum.”

A pro-independence campaigner, Robin McAlpine, commented that the prospect was dismal—Scotland has no lender of last resort under these plans and there is no solution to the border. In summary, he said the whole thing is “utter pish”. I defer to the Lord Speaker to explain to more genteel noble Lords that that is a Glaswegian euphemism for utter balderdash.

Stalking Protection Orders

Lord Selkirk of Douglas Excerpts

Wednesday 16th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)]

The Crown Prosecution Service is involved in training its staff in relation to these matters. Of course, as an independent body, it takes decisions on the prosecution of crime, but in addition the victims of stalking are able to apply, without cost to themselves, for these orders.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con)]

My Lords, will the Minister accept that his policy to extend it to all police services is very welcome, and that women should be protected at all times against violence or attacks, whatever they may be?

[Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for this point. Tackling violence against women and girls is a priority for the Government. I am sure that the House will agree that that should be the case. My noble friend is correct to say that there is a universal application of such measures. Scotland has its own distinctive regime, but it is one that deals with the same matter as SPOs in England and Wales.

Female Offender Strategy

Lord Selkirk of Douglas Excerpts

Thursday 31st January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, the idea of mandatory supervision for those serving a sentence of less than 12 months was introduced only quite recently. There is a disproportion between male and female offenders in that context—I quite accept that. Indeed, that manifests itself in various other parts of the prison and custodial system. At the moment, we are seeking to extend community centre services, to help to accommodate those released after short sentences, and to combine community services with treatment requirement protocols.

That is extremely important, particularly for female offenders, where we see a vast proportion who have reported elements of mental health difficulty or who suffer from alcohol issues and, very often, drug abuse issues as well. Over and above that, an enormous proportion of these female offenders have at times been subject to domestic violence. We are trying to direct these services at these issues and will continue to do so.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con)]

Does my noble friend accept that in recent years there have been a considerable number of pregnant women in prisons? Can he assure us that in every case the person concerned will be treated with sensitivity?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

This is a very important issue for us. In all cases where a female offender is in custody, we endeavour to ensure that birth does not take place within the prison system, but sometimes that cannot be avoided. We have extensive services for mothers and children up to the age of 18 months when it is necessary for them to be in custody—I emphasise the word “necessary”. When an offender is reaching the end of a short sentence, steps are taken to try to ensure that mother and child are kept together. However, of course this cannot be done in circumstances where there has been a serious offence that results in a mother being in custody for a lengthy period.

Private Burial Grounds

Lord Selkirk of Douglas Excerpts

Monday 18th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

As far as I am concerned, my Lords, it is not within my living memory.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con)]

Does the Minister accept that in the past I have had a particular interest in this because one of my ancestors was buried in an Egyptian sarcophagus? When efforts were made by respected members of the public to recover the sarcophagus, it could not be found. Perhaps I may say that where private sector measures impact on the public sector, it can often give rise to offence if it means interfering with other graves.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to my noble friend for his question. I am not aware of the present whereabouts of the sarcophagus in question.

Worboys Case and the Parole Board

Lord Selkirk of Douglas Excerpts

Wednesday 28th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

The noble and learned Lord makes an interesting suggestion. It is not a point which I recollect being addressed at the time, and the matter was looked at from the perspective of the Secretary of State for Justice. As the noble and learned Lord implicitly acknowledges, the Secretary of State was in something of a difficult position, given that the Parole Board—albeit an independent entity—has a link to the Ministry of Justice. But I take on board the noble and learned Lord’s observation.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con)]

Does my noble and learned friend accept that his assertion that there will be a review of procedures with a view to keeping them properly up to date is extremely welcome? Does he agree that in very anxious cases of this nature, the protection of the public must be considered paramount?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

Of course, the protection of the public is an all-embracing requirement, but there are certain things which require particular consideration. These include the interests of the victims.

Scotland Act 2016

Lord Selkirk of Douglas Excerpts

Wednesday 20th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dunlop]

They are not very good at geography and I do not think that consistency is always a strong point with them either.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con)]

My Lords, can the Minister confirm that with the increased responsibility will go increased accountability? That must not be forgotten.

[Lord Dunlop]

At the heart of the Scotland Act 2016 is the transfer of responsibility to the Scottish Parliament, along with greater accountability, so the Scottish Parliament, which has always had great powers to spend money, now has responsibility for determining how that money is raised.

Scotland Bill

Lord Selkirk of Douglas Excerpts

Monday 21st March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, like the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, I thought that the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Dunlop, in replying to the last amendment, when he thanked everybody, were more suitable for the Bill do now pass debate. However, although I did not take part in that discussion, I would not wish in any way to lessen the appreciation I express on behalf of my colleagues to those who have helped to get the Bill to its present state, not least the Bill team, with some of whom I have worked in the past and know of their exceptional quality and hard work. I particularly thank the Minister, who with his customary courtesy has gone out of his way to meet us, engage with us and discuss issues with us—regrettably, not always to any effect from my point of view, but no doubt from his point of view it has been very effective. That is very much appreciated.

Aspects of this process have not been at all satisfactory. The short period that we had in which to look at the fiscal framework was not satisfactory. The Bill could be in a better state than it is and perhaps more favourably reflect the spirit of the Smith commission. The House has not done much to respect, or even give proper consideration to, the points made by the Scottish Parliament’s committee that looked at the Bill. Those are matters of regret and do not augur well for having mutual respect and trying to improve the relationships between the institutions of the Westminster and Scottish Parliaments. But that is where we are.

This amendment addresses the Barnett formula. The Minister referred to the vow in his wind-up speech. I happen to believe that the referendum was won in spite of rather than because of it. However, it is important that we celebrate the fact that we won the referendum and are not facing independence day on Thursday of this week, with one dreads to think what consequences.

I note that, when I stood where the Minister stands now, the most difficult question I ever had to answer in one of these debates came from the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, who referred to the vow. It says:

“We agree that the UK exists to ensure opportunity and security for all by sharing our resources equitably across all four nations to secure the defence, prosperity and welfare of every citizen”.

It goes on to refer to the,

“continuation of the Barnett allocation for resources”.

I was asked how I could square the equitable sharing of resources with the continuation of the Barnett formula. I struggled to find an answer. I will allow the Minister to find his.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con)]

My Lords, when the Calman commission sat, the most important principles that it was trying to support were equity and accountability; this echoes what the noble and learned Lord has just said. I remind the House that on 7 September 2004, the day the Scottish Parliament opened at Holyrood, the Reverend Charles Robertson, minister of the Canongate church, was first to speak during the regular time for reflection. He reminded us of the previous uses of the site for the newly-built Parliament. It had been a house of refuge, a soup kitchen for the destitute and Scotland’s largest independent geriatric hospital, not to mention the site of a profusion of well-known and much-loved breweries. Given this history, it is perhaps not surprising that, on that day, the then First Minister, the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, urged MSPs to “raise their game”.

This legislation—the amendment relates to the heart of it—will bring about major changes in the powers and competence of the Scottish Parliament as, for the first time, the majority of funds that the Scottish Government spend will come from revenues raised in Scotland. When the prevailing philosophy has been a culture of spend, spend, spend, popularity is relatively easily won. That will now change as tough decisions will have to be made on how services will be financed.

There seems to be some uncertainty about who observed:

“With great power comes great responsibility”.

Some attribute it to Voltaire. In a debate in the other place in 1817, William Lamb, later Prime Minister Lord Melbourne, made an exhortation to the press. He begged leave to remind them of their,

“duty to apply to themselves a maxim which they never neglected to urge on the consideration of government—‘that the possession of great power necessarily implies great responsibility’”.—[Official Report, Commons, 27/6/1817; col. 1227.]

Similarly, on the same subject, Prime Minister Sir Winston Churchill said:

“The price of greatness is responsibility”.

What Churchill meant was that anyone who aspires to greatness must also be willing to shoulder the accompanying responsibilities. His advice still holds good today.

[Lord Dunlop]

My Lords, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, said, the Barnett formula has been the subject of significant debate during the passage of the Bill and has been raised in various statements and at other opportunities. I do not propose to go over well-worn ground, but I recognise the strong views that the formula evokes, particularly in this House. As has been said at other stages in the Bill’s progress, the retention of the Barnett formula is a manifesto commitment not just of the Government but of all three of the main UK parties. It will therefore continue to determine changes to the block grant resulting from changes in UK government departmental spending.

However, as my noble friend Lord Selkirk noted, the significance of the Barnett formula will be reduced, as over 50% of the Scottish Government’s budget will, in future, come from taxes raised in Scotland. As has been said before, the size of that budget will be determined increasingly by changes in Scottish taxes.

The amendments tabled by the noble and learned Lord call for a memorandum to be published within 30 days of the Scotland Act passing, providing additional detail on the future of the Barnett formula. We are already delivering the intent of these amendments. On Friday, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury placed in the Libraries of both Houses a supplementary technical annexe to the fiscal framework agreement. This sets out in detail how Barnett will operate in future, alongside the adjustments for new tax and welfare powers. Much of the detail of how Barnett operates is already published in the Statement of Funding Policy, which was last updated in November. The details of how the devolution settlement operates are also set out at each fiscal event.

In addition, we have listened to the views expressed in this House about transparency and reporting. The UK Government and the Scottish Government have agreed to report annually on the operation of the fiscal framework. Finally, in response to the House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee, the Treasury has undertaken to look at how the whole operation of the Barnett formula can be made more transparent. We on this side of the House fully expect scrutiny to continue beyond the passage of the Bill and therefore I urge the noble and learned Lord to withdraw his amendment.

Scotland’s Fiscal Framework

Lord Selkirk of Douglas Excerpts

Wednesday 24th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dunlop]

I assure the noble Lord that we are very confident that the delivery of these powers will go ahead as intended.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con)]

In view of the fact that I asked the second Question yesterday, I feel entitled to give the Minister warm congratulations on his part in securing this agreement on the fiscal framework. Does not this pave the way for the debate in Scotland to move forwards and focus fully on how the new and extensive powers should be used?

[Lord Dunlop]

I thank my noble friend for his words. We are months away from elections to the Holyrood Parliament and, as I said earlier, the deal opens the way to make sure that that debate is on the right terms—about how each of the political parties competing in that election will use those powers, and not the perpetual debate about what those powers are.

Scotland Bill: Fiscal Framework

Lord Selkirk of Douglas Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd February 2016 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress has been made on the Fiscal Framework that accompanies the Scotland Bill.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)]

My Lords, significant progress has been made, not least over the course of the last week, in the discussions with the Scottish Government. As I told the House yesterday, although nothing is certain, a deal is within reach. Discussions between the two Governments are continuing this afternoon and are at an advanced stage. The UK Government remain focused and committed to delivering a fiscal framework that is fair to all parts of the UK. We all want to see the debate in Scotland move from what the powers of the Scottish Parliament are to how those powers can be used. The UK Government are confident that, used well, these powers can further help Scotland to prosper within our United Kingdom.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con)]

In light of the Statement being made by the First Minister in the Scottish Parliament at 2.30 pm today, which may still be going on, will the Minister continue with discussions, however difficult the circumstances may be? Will he keep in mind that this House wishes all parts of the United Kingdom to be treated with fairness and that, if there are to be increased powers, these have to be matched by increased accountability? Finally, I wish to say that I have known the Minister for 30 years as a person of great integrity and ability and I wish him every success in whatever discussions lie ahead.

[Lord Dunlop]

I thank my noble friend for his kind words. I am aware that Scotland’s First Minister is making a Statement in the Scottish Parliament as we speak. The Government will obviously take very careful note of what she says and we will continue to engage constructively until a deal is done. That is what people in Scotland and all parts of the United Kingdom expect us to do. I very much agree with my noble friend that any deal must be fair to Scotland and all parts of the United Kingdom. It is in the interests of all parts of the United Kingdom to have a Scottish Parliament that is more responsible and accountable to the taxpayers of Scotland. I think that, in this House, we can all agree that with power comes responsibility.