Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Wednesday 5th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, I do not want to push my luck too much with the Minister, but he says that the rules will come in as and when the FCA decides, and that is 2014. We have a bit of time before then. Given that there is urgency regarding the adoption of this clause and all-party agreement about it, it would be good if he could elaborate on those comments so that he sends a message from here today to the industry and the regulators that this is a matter of urgency and that Parliament wishes to see early action on this matter. We do not want to wait until mid-2014. Just to add icing to the cake, will he please elaborate?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am sure that the industry has got the message loud and clear from this House that more needs to be done. Of course, it need not wait until April 2014; there are plenty of other things that can be done in the mean time if appropriate.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Monday 8th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

I support my colleague’s comments on this clause. Only last week I received a text saying that there was £2,200 waiting for me to claim as a result of that; I think, therefore, that something needs to be done. In relation to PPI, only six weeks ago both the banks and the consumer organisations had a meeting to sort out the problem with claims management simply because they said that the Ministry of Justice is not fit to look at it at this time. There are big problems here for the Minister; there needs to be consultation. If he gave us an indication today that the department was engaging in that, it would give some reassurance to those who are plagued by claims management companies at the moment.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, my comments on Amendments 147L and 147M will be brief, because we discussed both issues in some depth in earlier sessions of the Committee. Amendment 147L seeks to enable the activities of debt adjusting and debt management to be regulated under the Financial Services and Markets Act. I can reassure the Committee on this point. The effect of Amendment 147L is already achieved by Clause 6, which enables all activities currently regulated by the Office of Fair Trading under the Consumer Credit Act to be transferred to the FCA under FSMA. I hope that is a very clear answer and the direct reassurance for which the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, was asking.

I will not be quite as brief on Amendment 147M; this continues to be an important area even though we have discussed it before. The amendment seeks to add the services provided by claims management companies to the list of matters that can be regulated under FSMA. I set out in some detail in a past session of the Committee why I do not believe that the activities of claims management companies should be regulated by the FCA. The key point is that claims management companies are not financial services firms. Yes, it is correct that a substantial proportion of their activity at the moment relates to financial services, but—as the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, has pointed out—they may move their focus of attention back to, or on to, something quite different in the future. However, that does not alter the fact that they focus on financial services at the moment. It does not alter the fact that they have no place in the scope of a regulator concerned with financial services and only financial services, which is what we are talking about here.

I agree, of course, with the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, that there are a lot of detrimental practices in the sector that need to be tackled. I reiterate that work that is already under way to strengthen the existing regime for the regulation of claims management companies. Before the summer, I flagged that the claims management unit at the Ministry of Justice was doing work to strengthen the conduct of rules governing the sector. That work is proceeding apace and further steps are being taken. I will take back the noble Baroness’s comment about resources but I have no evidence that this work is being hampered by inadequate resources.

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[Lord Sassoon]

On this occasion, I am quite confident in my use of the English language, even if the noble Lord understands the Bill better. Outside the Chamber we can debate who understands the Bill better. I am quite clear that “would” is the correct word here because it refers to something which is expected to have the effect of extending regulation. I shall not detain the Committee on what we are not discussing, so let us talk about what we are discussing.

Amendment 148 would require the Treasury to consult on the order made under Section 22 where it would result in an unregulated activity becoming regulated. The Government recognise the best practice established in this area by the Department for Business’s code of practice on consultation. I can assure the Committee that the Government will continue to observe the code wherever possible when conducting formal written consultations. However, I do not think that it would be appropriate to write this requirement into this legislation, as it is not written into many other pieces of legislation. Indeed, the Government generally consult on changes to the regulated activities order. I cannot find any case to date where the Government have introduced substantive changes without consultation. Having said that, it may not be appropriate in all cases: for example, if an urgent change needs to be made to bring an activity into prudential regulation that may cause a financial stability risk. For that additional reason, I think it would be wrong to require consultation.

Amendment 149 would require the Treasury to consult on the first Section 22A order and any subsequent orders which amend the scope of PRA regulation or which amend primary legislation. The Section 22A order sets out the scope of PRA regulation. Here, too, the Government agree—and I am happy to restate it—that it is preferable to consult, and indeed the Treasury will be consulting on a draft of the Section 22A order shortly. I do not think it is necessary to write such requirements into legislation.

It is also worth the Committee noting that both of these types of orders would be subject to the affirmative procedure in all cases. Parliament will always have the chance to consider these amendments, and to consider whether the Government have presented suitable evidence—through a consultation in the normal event—of the need for any change. I think that that backstop is an important point here.

I turn now to Amendment 149AB in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham. He has tabled, I think, only one amendment out of the many hundreds that this Committee has already considered and because I made a concession on it, his batting order is going down from a 100% to a 50% success rate at a stroke. I agree with the noble Lord that orders made by the Treasury that amend Schedule 6 should be subject to the affirmative procedure as they concern changes to the PRA’s and FCA’s threshold conditions, which are the cornerstones of each authority’s regulatory approach. However, we have already provided for this. Clause 46(2), on page 130, includes orders made under Section 55C in the list of orders that should be subject to the affirmative procedure. Therefore it is a simple matter to understand that Amendment 149AB is not needed.

I move to Amendment 174, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith. I will briefly explain the purpose of new Section 141A of FiSMA. It gives the Treasury and the Secretary of State a narrow and technical order-making power to amend legislation that makes reference to the rules of either regulator or to guidance issued by the FCA where the regulator has altered or revoked its rules. This is a sensible approach to ensuring that references to rules and guidance made by the regulator in legislation remain accurate and up to date.

It would not be appropriate to require the Treasury or the Secretary of State to engage in consultations before making amendments to legislation that are a direct consequence of changes to rules or guidance made by the regulator. This would cause unhelpful delays to the process of updating the affected legislation, causing possible confusion and uncertainty for firms and other persons affected. Of course, except in cases of urgency there will already have been consultation on the substantive changes being made to the rules or guidance, as this is required of the regulators.

I hope that with those explanations the noble Lord, Lord McFall, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, it was not my primary aim to promote a deeper understanding of the English language but I did enjoy the exchanges. However, I now beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Wednesday 25th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

Does the noble Lord, Lord Peston, agree that the Government came forward with a package of very substantial amendments that have already been discussed in Committee? I refer the noble Lord to the number of government amendments that have already been laid and debated, and to the number of times in Committee when I have indeed said that I will look at things or have made concessions. I do not accept for one minute his statement about the attitude with which I have come to the Committee.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

Can I suggest that the noble Lord does not get so het up? There are issues and principles here, and we want to tie them down. Looking at Amendment 117, if I am correct, it is for the FCA to include,

“the ease with which consumers can identify and obtain services which are appropriate to their needs and represent good value for money”.

This goes to the heart of consumer interest. Given the Minister’s position—and let us get rid of the legalese jargon—does he think that this Bill, in this area or elsewhere, ensures that the type of scandals which we have seen going on for years and years without being addressed will be nipped in the bud by the new powers? Will we see the FCA step in straightaway, without prolonged pain for both the industry and consumers? That is what is behind the amendment and the points put by Members.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, all I can usefully say is that while I believe that this amendment is well meant, it is based on a legal construction that the Government do not accept. The FCA has all the powers that it needs and there are some dangers in putting this amendment in. That is what we are discussing.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Wednesday 18th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, this group contains an interesting mix of loosely related amendments, if they are related at all. I shall respond first to the amendments concerning claims management firms.

Amendments 118D and 147K seek to bring claims management companies under the regulation of the FCA. Clearly the regulation of claims management companies must be effective, but there are two reasons why a transfer of CMC regulation to the FCA is not the right course of action. First, the best way to improve regulation of CMCs is to make changes to the current regime, rather than by transferring responsibility for regulation to another body. My noble friend has already questioned whether the transfer of consumer credit responsibilities by April 2014 is achievable. I should say, in parenthesis, that I believe it is achievable, although I appreciate that there is a lot to do. There will be a consultation early in 2013 about how it will operate. However, we are talking here about making another transfer of responsibilities, which I do not believe is necessary or the best way to achieve the objective.

The Ministry of Justice, as we have heard, is the body responsible for regulating the activities of businesses providing claims management services. It carried out a review last year of claims management regulation which concluded that fundamental reform was not needed but identified a number of areas where improvements could be made. A shift in responsibilities now would not address the underlying problems in the conduct of claims management companies and would detract from the concrete steps that the Government are taking to address those problems.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

The Minister said that the Ministry of Justice undertook a review that concluded that fundamental reform was not needed. As I mentioned earlier, two months ago I chaired a meeting between the banks and consumer groups on PPI, where £8 billion is at stake. Both groups were very concerned about some rogue claims management companies and asked for an urgent meeting with the Ministry of Justice. Indeed, I hope that they will get a meeting with Ken Clarke as a result. Therefore, on the ground the situation is much different from the one the Minister describes, with the Ministry of Justice saying that fundamental reform is not needed.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Wednesday 18th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

No, my Lords, I am trying to use duty of care in the precise way in which it is used in FiSMA and the regulations that go with it. There are, of course, all sorts of other considerations that apply, whether it is in the LIBOR market or other markets. However, I am trying to use the term precisely as it relates to this legislation and the regulations under it. If we want to redefine duty of care or anything else as something that it is not, now is not the time to do it. This has been a wide-ranging debate. However, I would like to focus on the amendments themselves, which highlight important issues with much more focus than some elements of the discussion we have just had. The issues concern disability, ability and vulnerability. I fully share the views of the noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith, that the ability of consumers to engage in financial services can be affected by their age, disability or other personal circumstances. These are points that have been made by a number of noble Lords in this debate, albeit that some other points went rather wider.

The first thing to be clear about is that I disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell of Coatdyke. It would be nice to be in a world in which these issues did not have to be referred to in legislation at all, but that is not the position I take. I believe that they should be reflected in legislation, and indeed they already are in a number of ways. For example, both the FSA and the Money Advice Service, which we have been talking about, have duties under the Equality Act 2010. The FCA and the PRA will be subject to the same requirements, so the Equality Act also bites on them. Also, under the public sector equality duty set out in the Equality Act, both the FCA and the PRA will be required to assess their rules and processes for their impact on protected groups, and take mitigating action where appropriate. In addition, equality law applies to financial services providers so that firms are required to make “reasonable adjustments” to their services for consumers with a disability under the Equality Act, depending on the nature of the product, the barrier and the size of the business. So there is indeed a body of law that goes very much to the points which the noble Lord, Lord McFall, makes.

Then there is the question of monitoring compliance by the industry with equality law. This is not a job for the FCA or the PRA. It is for the Equality and Human Rights Commission, as the regulator responsible, to enforce the law, and it indeed has the powers to do that. These powers include helping individuals with their legal cases and taking legal action against organisations that appear to have broken the law.

Amendment 136 specifically concerns the regulatory principle concerning consumer responsibility to which the PRA and FCA must have regard in discharging their general functions; and through Amendment 105 the noble Lord wishes to ensure that the FCA, in determining what an appropriate degree of consumer protection is, has regard to the way in which certain consumers may need extra help and protection. These issues are reflected in the FCA’s proposed principles-based approach to regulation, which is designed to ensure that firms adapt their approach depending on the needs of the customer. Instead of having myriad detailed rules and requirements that focus on different degrees of vulnerability, disability or other personal circumstances, requirements on firms will focus clearly and unequivocally on the overarching principle that firms need to take account of their customers’ needs and treat them fairly.

This builds on the FSA’s current approach. For example, principle 7 of the FSA’s Principles for Business states:

“A firm must pay due regard to the information needs of its clients, and communicate information to them in a way which is clear, fair and not misleading”.

In setting penalties for the failings of firms, one key aspect the FSA considers is,

“whether the breach had an effect on particularly vulnerable people, whether intentionally or otherwise”.

There are examples of where the FSA has taken very significant action. I will cite only one, but I am sure the noble Lord is familiar with it. Late in 2011, the FSA fined NHFA—a subsidiary of HSBC—£10.5 million for mis-selling products to elderly customers. The firm sold asset-backed investment products to elderly people wishing to fund their care home costs, but in fact many of them were not expected to live beyond the period for which it was recommended the products were held. I could also cite cases in relation to the Bank of Scotland and Swift 1st Ltd, so the FSA has been on the case.

The principle that a customer with greater needs should be better protected or offered more support and assistance is clearly enshrined in the regime, but it would not be appropriate to take a more detailed approach, for two reasons. First, we would not want the FCA to cut across or duplicate the efforts of the Equality and Human Rights Commission in considering what circumstances might need special care, and how they should be accommodated. The current approach strikes the right balance of setting a high-level framework with requirements directly imposed on firms by the Equality Act and, on the other hand, with discretion for the FCA to impose more detailed requirements as necessary to ensure appropriate consumer protection.

Secondly, I do not think it is right to list all these matters here. Again, it is potentially duplicative, but more importantly it also risks being incomplete. For example, we might legitimately add age, gender or geographical location—issues which I believe have been raised in previous debates on this Bill—to the list already proposed in the amendment, but where would we stop? I believe there are sufficient powers there. We will come on in due course to the new product intervention powers, which are important in this context compared with what the FSA has at present. Although we will no doubt come to them in detail in due course, the product intervention powers in new Sections 137C and 138M, which mean that in extreme cases a product could be banned with immediate effect, are also additional important safeguards to back up the general principles and approach which I have outlined.

I hope that I have made it clear that the Government take these issues extremely seriously. Unfortunately we cannot and should not rely on people doing the right things, which is why we have the various provisions in the equality legislation as well as the provisions for the FCA—provisions that will be tougher on intervention powers than the powers that the FSA currently has. I therefore invite the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, in withdrawing my amendment I express my disappointment with the Minister’s response. Just to illustrate that individuals in this House are up to date with electronic technology, I can say that I took advantage of looking up the meaning of “objective” in Dictionary.com, because that is in bold at the top of the paragraph we are talking about. “Objective” means,

“something that one’s efforts or actions are intended to attain or accomplish”.

In other words, it is the purpose, the goal or the target of what we are to achieve. I submit that there is nothing more comprehensive than that. Therefore, we do not stray away from the subject; this is very germane to the subject. There is still disappointment in the FCA being expected to attend something rather than having a duty to attend. Tonight, we expect to get to a particular clause before we adjourn at 10 o’clock, but the consequence of not getting that far is that we take it on the next day. In other words, the consequences are not very great. There is a difference between that and a duty.

I submit that the Minister, for whom I have great respect, has muddled thinking on this. I wish that he would look at this again so that we can come back on Report to get clarity. Besides me, quite a number of people cannot understand what the Minister is trying to achieve here. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Tuesday 3rd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 43. The four main Financial Policy Committee functions have been outlined in the Bill, but I would like the Minister to consider providing clear regulatory statements for both the FCA and the PRA, given that clarity is essential: there is an outside audience here, so transparency and clarity are very important. For both those bodies, that would be a helpful submission from the FPC.

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, we are into another bran-tub—not a pot-pourri this time, but a bran-tub, I note; I am not sure what the distinction is. This is a varied group of amendments about the functions of the FPC.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, and all other noble Lords taking part in Committee that if there are definitional difficulties—we have got into one or two tangles about definitions, construction of difficult clauses and the interrelationship between clauses and subsections —I am very happy for the noble Lord or any other noble Lord to have meetings including the Bill team to try to thrash out some of those difficult issues outside the Committee if that would be helpful. Some of these things might more easily be done away from the constraints and formality of the debate. I lay that offer on the table to all noble Lords who are interested.

I will come back to Amendment 42, but let me start with Amendment 43, which would require the FPC to prepare and publish regulatory statements for the PRA and FCA. One of the most glaring flaws of the tripartite system of regulation was a lack of clarity about who was responsible for what. As we know, the Bill will create regulatory bodies with clear and separate responsibilities. Although the FPC will have the power to direct the FCA and the PRA, that will apply only in the case of actions required to address systemic risk. The Bill makes it clear that the FPC cannot make recommendations or directions that relate to specified persons—that is, individual firms. Decisions on the policy approach of the PRA and the FCA will be made by their respective boards, not the FPC. As such, the amendment would risk blurring those clear responsibilities of the regulators.

Amendment 47, which would provide the FPC with the power to direct the PRA to require the disclosure of leverage ratios, is simply unnecessary. The Government agree that the disclosure of leverage ratios would be beneficial. That is why we supported the Basel III proposals to require its calculation from 1 January 2013 and its disclosure from 1 January 2015. The Government have pushed for full implementation of Basel III.

The interim FPC recommended in November last year that the FSA encourage UK banks to disclose their leveraged ratios from 1 January 2013, and an update on the progress of that recommendation was included in the financial stability report published last week. I will not, but I could quote extensively from that report. It is clear from reading that FSR that the FPC is already using recommendations to address disclosure issues effectively, so I suggest that Amendment 47 is unnecessary.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am not sure whether one can distinguish the world in which we are talking about financial regulation from the real world. This is the real world. It is a world in which these are very important powers that go to the heart of ensuring the financial stability of the UK. This is not a frivolous point. It may appear on the surface to be Alice in Wonderland territory but, if the FPC is to exercise the really significant powers in the system that it is being given or the responsibility for financial stability, it must first have the levers. One of the important constituencies that it will be addressing—and it would be totally remiss of the Government and this Bill to leave it out—would be directions from the FPC to another important regulatory body, of which the Bank is one.

An awful lot of things could be left unsaid which one would assume would somehow happen. This is not one where it would be safe in any way to do so because, if we did not have this power to make recommendations, there could be a significant risk that the FPC would not have the powers—the levers—over critical areas of the supervision and the regulation of the financial infrastructure that underpins so much of our financial system. One only has to look at recent events to see how computer glitches and apparently relatively simple IT problems can have very significant consequences. I suggest that the FPC would have a huge hole in this armoury if it was not able to make recommendations also directed at those who supervise the infrastructure.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

On this point, can I remind fellow Peers that I have invited the Governor of the Bank of England along tomorrow morning, so I suggest that they ask him the very important question: “Will he enjoy writing letters to himself in the future?”.

[Viscount Trenchard]

The Minister just said that the FPC is to be a separate committee with strong statutory powers. I find it very hard to reconcile this with its being a committee of the Court of the Bank of England. This is different from the MPC, which is not a committee of the court but is a committee of the Bank. It would be more logical and comprehensible if at least it were acknowledged—as it clearly is—that the FPC is not a committee of the court but a strong semi-separate body. However, the Bill says that it is a committee of the court, in which case it cannot have any powers beyond the powers of the court.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Tuesday 3rd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am sorry if my noble friend thinks that I mischaracterised her argument. My interpretation of the words,

“The Treasury and the Financial Policy Committee must agree … a set of indicators”,

is that effectively the Treasury would have a veto over the set of indicators. What would happen if the Treasury and the FPC did not agree? It states in the amendment that they must agree. They would therefore have to find some common ground and it would be difficult if the Treasury dug its heels in and said, “We believe that this and that should be in the indicators”. Our starting premise here is that the FPC is the expert body and it should be left to define the indicators. As I have tried to indicate to the Committee, the Bank and the FPC are already on the case, providing a high degree of transparency, and there will be a series of draft policy statements available in time for consideration of the passage in the relevant secondary legislation. There will be appropriate scrutiny, but we would be going into pretty dangerous territory if we were to hard-wire the Treasury into the set of indicators that should be for the experts to set. Appropriate parliamentary and public scrutiny is allowed for in the Bill in the way that I have described.

Amendment 73, which would require the financial stability report to include the FPC’s predictions about the likely future state of the UK financial stability, is unnecessary. Subsection (3)(d) of new Section 9T, which appears at the bottom of page 11 of the Bill, already requires the report to include an assessment of the risks to stability that is very similar to the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, that it includes a “range of … possible scenarios”. Subsection (3)(e) of new Section 9T already requires that the report includes the committee’s view of the outlook for the stability of the UK financial system. The interim FPC has already published three financial stability reports since its establishment. As I am sure the Committee is aware, the most recent report, published just last week, contains a whole chapter devoted to the committee’s outlook and the actions that the FPC felt necessary to tackle risks that it had identified.

I move on to Amendment 74. It is important that we learn from the mistakes of the previous system of regulation. In that system, the Bank was given responsibility for maintaining financial stability but no means of achieving that objective. That is why it is vital to give the FPC effective and proportionate powers to use certain macroprudential tools. However, the use of those tools will need to be monitored carefully. That is why the Bill already requires that the financial stability report includes an assessment of the extent to which the committee’s actions have succeeded in achieving its objectives, including its new secondary objective for economic growth. That is also why the FPC is required to publish and maintain policy statements for each of its macroprudential tools. We expect these statements to include estimates of their impact on both financial stability and growth. As we will discuss in due course, other amendments will require the FPC to produce explanations of how its actions are compatible with its objectives, including the costs and benefits of those actions. I do not therefore think that Amendment 74, which would require the financial stability report to include an assessment of the impact of each of its macroprudential measures on employment and economic growth, is needed.

Lastly, on Amendment 76, the smooth and efficient functioning of financial markets is a key requirement for financial stability. As such, the FPC’s objective to protect and enhance the resilience of the UK financial system extends to the functioning of markets. As I have mentioned, the Bill already requires the FPC to include an assessment of its actions as part of the financial stability report. The amendments that I have made require the FPC to explain how its actions are compatible with its objectives with regard to financial stability and supporting the Government’s economic policy. I therefore regard Amendment 76 as unnecessary because the same ground is already amply covered by the Bill.

I hope that on the basis of those explanations and reassurances noble Lords will withdraw or not move their amendments.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, this was the gentlest of amendments ever. The genesis of it was the tripartite authority, and how the link between the Bank and the Treasury did not work as well as it could. Here we have an ill-defined term—financial stability—for which there is no definition whatever. On that basis, in getting the balance right between the two institutions, the Joint Committee at the time recommended—and I promoted, because I did not want anything prescriptive—that they should agree indicators. That is a very general term, so that people knew what the Treasury was expecting, and what the Financial Policy Committee was asked, and tasked, to do. That was the genesis of it. If we do not get that balance right we could find, in a few years time, someone saying in this very place—if it still exists—why did they not come to some agreement, so that there was a general consensus on what was happening?

Far from it being dangerous territory, I think it is nothing more than plain common sense. I hope that the Minister will look at this again, particularly when we come back to the Report stage, but I do not intend to move the amendment tonight. I beg leave to withdraw.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Tuesday 26th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

Even if it does not matter, I try. I do my best to answer these points, even if it causes more confusion. Sometimes the “a”s and the “the”s could be very important.

I move on to Amendment 6 tabled by my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft, on which, no surprise, I will not be much more accommodating, but it is an important point that should be discussed. As I said, it is vital that the post be filled by the best possible candidate and taken from candidates who have expertise and skills to fulfil the role effectively. The legislation as it stands does not prohibit the Chancellor consulting widely before recommending that a candidate be appointed as governor. In practice, the Treasury and the Bank work together closely to recruit for key Bank of England posts. I am sure that my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will engage with key individuals as appropriate during the process to identify the next Governor of the Bank of England. Indeed, well ahead of the formal process kicking off, the chairman of court, Sir David Lees, and the Chancellor are already in touch on this matter.

However, I suggest that we should keep in mind that the appointment is ultimately for the Queen to make on the advice of the Prime Minister and Chancellor. Many people may be consulted as part of the process to appoint a new governor, but it would be impractical to attempt to define them prescriptively in the Bill. By leaving the legislation broad in this way, the Chancellor will be able to consult whoever he or she feels will add value to the advice. The people consulted may well change depending on the circumstances of the appointment. I suggest that that is how to leave the legislation but I hope that I have given the Committee some perspective on how these things will be handled. I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, the aim of the exercise is contained in the Treasury Committee report, which said that an amendment was tabled on Report in the other place but that because of “insufficient time” the Minister did not give an answer. This amendment is to elicit an answer. I suggest that the Minister should think again on this issue.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, said that there is a role for Parliament. If Parliament feels excluded, that does not augur well for the stability of the system. I understand that giving a veto to a parliamentary committee is a bold measure, so I understand the concerns being expressed. The noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, made the point that the Treasury Committee could make a recommendation and the House could look at it. There has to be either a formal or an informal way of including Parliament in this. My noble friend Lord Peston said that if the Governor of the Bank of England left, he would leave the country.

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[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, without wanting to endorse the conclusions of the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, from the experience in 2007, yes, of course it would be possible and appropriate for the oversight committee to conduct or commission that kind of review. Without detaining the Committee for much longer, I will address a couple of other points.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

Could the Minister point to where his amendment says that that would be allowed? Looking at proposed new Section 3A(2), I can imagine a very sterile debate between the oversight committee and the Bank or the governor. The function of the oversight committee is to keep,

“under review the Bank’s performance in relation to … the Bank’s objectives”.

If it asked, “Did you stick by your objectives?”, the Bank answered, “Yes”, and the committee said, “We don’t think you did stick by your objectives”, where would it go on that issue? The committee could ask, “Did the Financial Policy Committee do its duty under Section 9C?”. The answer could be, “Yes, it has”, or, “No, it hasn’t”. The Minister needs to point to areas that would allow for the questions that my noble friend Lord Eatwell has asked.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I think the critical point here is that the noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith, posited a situation in which this would be, in his words, a sterile debate with the governor. It goes perhaps to the heart of the question that I started with as to why the oversight committee is a committee of the non-executives. It means that it is the oversight committee without the governor or any of the executives of the Bank being members of that committee that takes the decision, under this provision in Amendment 13, to commission reports over a very wide area. So there is no question at the front end of a negotiation with the governor and the executive about whether they would commission a report in those circumstances. That is for the oversight committee to do. We have discussed the timing issue. The report is made and, subject to the issues that we have already discussed, the report is published. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord McFall, that there is no negotiation to be had at that front end. The non-executive oversight committee of the court of the Bank will have a very clear statutory function to take precisely what is proposed in new Section 3A, and it will be untrammelled by any possibility of the sort of sterile debate that the noble Lord suggests might happen. I hope that that reassures him.

I want to address a couple of other points, largely people issues of two kinds here. My noble friend Lord Tugendhat and the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, questioned the need for the governor to consent to the appointment of an internal reviewer. This is intended to be a perfectly straightforward and practical measure. In practical terms, if the person selected is on the verge of leaving the Bank for another post, going on sabbatical or maternity leave, or whatever, the non-executive directors on the court may not necessarily be aware of this, and it is a practical way of ensuring that the appointment works. It also provides the governor, as the person ultimately responsible for the staff who work for him or her, with the opportunity to determine whether the person selected has the capacity to undertake the review in the timescale envisaged without impacting their other responsibilities. There is no more to it than that.

Lastly, I go back to a point which I believe the noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith, made at the beginning about the size of the court. It is not directly the subject of this amendment, but I think that it is worth answering that point. Given that there will be four executive members—the governor and three deputy governors—if the court were reduced to eight, it would not allow for a non-executive majority because we have four insiders on the court. More generally, if there were such a small number of non-executives, it would be difficult to have sufficient diversity of experience and views, which was a point that we discussed earlier and which I completely agree with. If we had a reduction in size, it would be impossible effectively to have a non-executive majority or indeed, as I say, sufficient diversity.

I hope that I have been able to deal with the very understandable and important questions and concerns on this issue so that the noble Lord, Lord McFall, might see his way to withdrawing his amendment and the Committee will support the Government’s amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

The three deputy governors are to be members—I count that up as a six to five ratio. It is not correct that the Bank has seven insiders. The Financial Conduct Authority is an independent regulator, which is emphatically not one of the Bank members. I doubted whether I could count to six at this hour, but it is six. However, I am grateful to my noble friend for getting that clarification.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

Would the Minister expand on that clarification? At present, the MPC contains two deputy governors, Charlie Bean and Paul Tucker, and there will be a third one, who will take the membership up to six. However, there are only four external members of the MPC at the moment: Ben Broadbent, David Miles, Adam Posen and Martin Weale.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, no change is being proposed to the membership of the MPC, which will remain with five internal and four external members. The third—the new deputy governor—will not join the membership of the MPC. Let me press on.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Wednesday 28th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

Under the proposed new clause as far as it goes, I was taken with the Minister’s comment about taxation being an instrument of redistribution, as Calman noted. If that is the case, we need a deeper appreciation of the transfer of these powers. It is not just about money but how that money is spent. There is no association between tax levels and growth. As a Scottish citizen, I want to ensure that money from income tax in Scotland is spent properly and that I will benefit as a result.

As far as concerns subsection (5)(d) of the proposed new clause, it is important that the issue is looked at. As was suggested, Scottish public services are inefficient even by miserable UK standards. The Scottish health service, for example, spends 19 per cent more per person, and we have 30 per cent more doctors, yet in many cases—such as cancer survival levels for women—there are worse outcomes. This is a very important issue. If we are going to look at income tax levels, we should have reports from the Scottish and UK Parliaments to ensure that we spend our money in the proper way—as an instrument of redistribution, as Calman suggested.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I will respond briefly to the points raised. The noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith, articulated what goes to the heart of the Bill. It was a bit away from the limited but important role of the new reports that we are suggesting, which will deal with implementation and cover important things such as the criteria in the Command Paper that we discussed. I completely agree with him about the need for broader accountability. That will be precisely what the Bill takes to the Scottish people and to the Scottish Parliament.

In answer to my noble friend Lord Caithness, I say that the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, has already drawn attention to the obligation, in subsection (2) of the proposed new clause, on Scottish Ministers to submit a report. My noble friend shakes his head. Perhaps he would like to see one report agreed between the two Parliaments. I am not sure what further step he would like to see, but it was felt appropriate, since there are two Governments representing separately the people and interests of Scotland and the UK, to have two reports with slightly different perspectives.

The Scottish Parliament will have access to both reports. In the working up to the reports, the Joint Exchequer Committee and the other fora for joint working will be engaged in all the work. Any difference in the reports on the progress that is being made on implementation will be wholly transparent, but I do not anticipate that there will be any such difference. There will be a report by Scottish Ministers, it will be clear to everybody how the reports link to each other, and I fully expect them to present a consistent picture of the progress that is being made.

I appreciate what the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, said in welcoming the reports. I fully understand, in the context of our earlier discussion, that the proposal does not go as far as he would like, but it is appreciated that he understands that this is a step forward which will help with reassurance on implementation.

The final point that the noble Lord made, which we discussed in Committee, was on the question of how well prepared or otherwise the Scottish Government are to take on the challenge. There are three further years to go. I appreciate that it is a big challenge. The UK Government are sharing all relevant expertise. Ministers from both the UK and Scottish Governments are overseeing progress. Now that the substance of the Bill has been agreed, we hope that the emphasis and focus will move to implementation, which I accept is an important challenge.

Banking: Accounting Standards

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Monday 19th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the structure of the various bodies that fall under the Financial Reporting Council is a matter for the Financial Reporting Council. I do not believe for one minute that anything it does to the structure of the number of bodies under the FRC will weaken the very distinguished and important contribution which the UK makes to international standard-setting.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, has the fatal flaw not been the ability of banks and other financial institutions to book future projected income as profits—profits which did not materialise and on which bonuses were paid, thereby skewing the incentives of the whole financial sector industry? There is a time here for reassessment, and that is a black hole at the centre of these proposals.

[Lord Sassoon]

Again, this is an important issue. The Government have taken significant steps to increase both the transparency and the FSA rules around the payment of bonuses. However, we should be careful about this. First, it is worth noting that under UK GAAP, before IFRS was introduced, banks were required to account at fair value for their trading portfolios. Of course, accounting at fair value requires assets to be marked both up and down. It is certainly the case that under IFRS there were certain portfolios that previously would not have been counted as trading portfolios, which now are. However, we have to be very careful about attributing all that went on with banking bonuses to the accounting requirements. If I may suggest so, that was a small part of what was undoubtedly a series of inappropriate behaviours at the heart of the industry.

Finance: Credit Rating Agencies

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Wednesday 14th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, my noble friend conflates a number of interesting questions. The key point is that the UK is in a very strong position to look at ultra-long or perpetual bonds. We have historically very low rates of interest and significant investor demand, particularly from the domestic funds, for very long-dated gilts. In response to that situation, we think that it is right to consult the market, as my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has indicated we will do, and to see what it has to say, but we will not make any issue unless it represents good value for the taxpayer.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, given that the credit rating agencies have demonstrated a consistent lack of accuracy, have failed in their governance, are flawed in that the person paying for the rating has to ask for it, and competition is non-existent, will the Minister encourage investors in the City to establish their own credit rating agencies on a not-for-profit basis? At a stroke, they would remove conflicts of interest, introduce healthy competition and establish accurate credit rating figures. Let us remember that all the credit rating agencies gave Northern Rock a AAA rating immediately before its demise.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, while we should not underestimate the difficulties with the credit rating agencies historically, equally we do not want to make the situation sound more dramatic than it is. On sovereign ratings, the IMF’s analysis in the autumn of 2010 indicated that the rating agencies had performed relatively well and that, in all cases of sovereign default since 1975, they had had those sovereigns on speculative grade ratings at least one year ahead. I have already given some answers as to how we should introduce competition. If one of the vehicles that comes in is of the sort which the noble Lord, Lord McFall, mentioned, that would be up to the market and it should not be prevented from using it.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Tuesday 28th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I will not stand here and criticise or question the way that another place goes about its business. We are now giving the Bill—and this clause in particular—appropriate scrutiny, and I will take as long as I need to give appropriate answers to the questions that were raised.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

I refer to the contributions made already. Under the Bill, could the Scottish Parliament reduce corporation tax and increase taxes on oil and gas?

[Lord Sassoon]

If the Scottish Government came forward with new tax proposals, they would have to meet the criteria that I laid out, which would include provisions on the macroeconomic effect. Clear criteria are set out and it would not be sensible for the Scottish Government to come forward with tax proposals that did not meet the criteria. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, asked whether the criteria should be enshrined in some way. It strikes an appropriate balance to have them clearly set out in the Command Paper.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am not sure that it is profitable to speculate about what, at some time in the future, a Scottish Government might come forward with. I have set out that there are clear criteria that the UK Government will use to screen proposals. It is very important that the criteria are clear to the Scottish Government—and they are. Secondly—I will give way in a moment to the noble Lord, Lord McFall—it is also appropriate that they are set out, as they are, in a Command Paper, which will give flexibility as circumstances change. The criteria are fundamental and clear.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

Perhaps I may intervene again. I do not have a clue about what the Minister’s answer to my question was. Corporation tax has been a big issue in Northern Ireland and Scotland. It is a contemporary issue in Scotland. I put it to the Minister again: could the Scottish Government come forward with proposals to reduce corporation tax and increase oil and gas taxes? I ask for a simple yes or no answer.

[Lord Sassoon]

The answer is a very simple yes. They could come forward with such a proposal, and the Government would judge it against the criteria. If it met the criteria, it would then go through the procedure of the two Houses of Parliament.

EU: Fiscal Compact Treaty

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Tuesday 7th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, now that there is a realistic assessment of what capital is required, there is a clear agreement on the timetables and methods for doing that and it is well within the capacity of the eurozone to do it. I do not think we should speculate on what happens if they fail to do it. The eurozone, its Governments and the European Central Bank have all the firepower necessary.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, Europe and the UK will be going nowhere unless competitiveness is restored to individual countries. Does the noble Lord agree that at the heart of any fiscal compact should be a policy of growth and investment? Even from our position in the wings of Europe, will the Government agree to ensure that such a policy is implemented, not least to help the many millions of young people who are now unemployed all over Europe?

[Lord Sassoon]

I very much agree with the sentiments of the noble Lord. The one part of them that I disagree with is that we are not sitting on the sidelines but are very much at the heart of the discussions about pro-growth policies and the completion of the single market.

Independent Commission on Banking

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Monday 19th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I well recognise the consistency, firmness and clarity with which my noble friend has held his views on separation from very early on in this debate; we discussed it three years ago. However, the Government agree with the ICB that full separation is not the route to go down. I say to him that having independent directors on the boards of the ring-fenced banks will go a long way towards making up for, as he puts it, possible deficiencies of top management and their ability to get around these things. Having independent directors of ring-fenced subsidiaries is a model that has worked well in utility companies. As he says, it is right that the Bank of England will be watching this in its new role of supervising the system.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, when Sir John Vickers appeared before the Draft Financial Services Bill Joint Committee, it was clear that his report would not solve the “too big to fail” issue. What was required was a good regulatory structure, and no regulator globally succeeded in that.

In the draft Financial Services Bill report there were a number of issues relating to the governance of the Bank of England, and I should like an assurance from the Minister that the Government will take these all-party proposals very seriously. As a previous speaker said, culture is more important than architecture. I think that will be one of the main recommendations of our report.

The Minister mentioned the issue of switching current accounts. Will he accept that the portability of current account numbers is the key? That revolutionised the mobile phone industry. Only with the portability of current account numbers will we see a revolution in switching accounts in the banking industry.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I can confirm to the noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith, that the Joint Committee’s report, which was published only today, will be taken very seriously on governance and all the other matters that are contained in it. As to switching accounts, I hear what he says about number portability, which is not at all an easy issue, as he well knows. All I would say is that the ability for seven-day switching, including all direct debits, credits and standing orders—which we now have the banks’ agreement will be implemented by September 2013—is a significant advance that will help millions of consumers.

Economy: Deficit Reduction

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Thursday 15th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, it is very important that credit flows to SMEs, which is why we announced a package of £21 billion at the autumn Statement, and it could go higher if the demand is there. I take my noble friend’s point about the importance of diversity and new entrants into our banking system. That is something that both the FSA and the Government keep under review.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, given that the stability message has failed, is it not time now for a growth strategy? Given the appalling figures on unemployment for both young people and others in the country, is there not hope to be given to people? Given that the Government can borrow, with the low interest rates, at a rate less than the private sector, is it not time to invest in infrastructure projects so that we come out of this recession and not make it a depression?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, that is exactly what we are doing: we are investing in infrastructure projects. Indeed, as was announced at the autumn Statement, we are targeting an additional £20 billion of private sector money coming into infrastructure from long-term UK investors. As to the policy mix, I can only refer back to the IMF’s latest assessment which said that the case for relatively tight fiscal and relatively loose monetary policy is strong.

International Monetary Fund

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Thursday 24th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, we are at risk of straying a bit far from the question about the IMF, but there are a number of serious points here. First, with respect to Germany or any other countries, one should not read too much into one particular bond sale that does not meet its target. That has happened to a number of countries over the years, including the UK. As for what the arrangements will be for the eurozone, we continue to wish that the eurozone makes as much progress as it can, as urgently as possible, to put the arrangements in place.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, given that the eurozone crisis is potentially more damaging than the one of 2008, is the Minister aware of the IMF statistics that show that over 50 per cent of the Italian, German and French debt is held by non-residents, thereby ensuring that if there is a crisis it will not be confined to the European continent? Is there not a case for more urgent consideration with the IMF to ensure that it and the UK play their part in this global crisis to ensure a better and more stable economic future for the citizens of this country?

Banks: Cheques

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Monday 6th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

To those noble Lords who were listening to some of my previous answers, forgive me for repeating myself: the criteria which the Payments Council itself put forward and which the previous Government welcomed back in December 2009—I echo that welcome—were that the new system had to be generally available, generally acceptable to its users and widely adopted. There also has to be, in the view of the Government, a paper-based system. Those are the criteria that have been set and we are making sure that the Payments Council sticks to them.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to my noble friend for drawing attention to that issue, which is one of the important issues that the Payments Council must take into account. I am sure that it will be listening carefully to what is being said today. If anyone wants to go on to the Payments Council website, there is probably a paper-based system for submitting suggestions to it on all these matters.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords—

Banking: Savings Accounts

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Monday 23rd May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to my noble friend for drawing attention to the fact that the 48th series of fixed-interest and index-linked savings certificates was launched on 12 May. It is our intention to keep this series on sale for a sustained period. Of course, there is only a certain amount of availability within the targets we set for NS&I, but I am pleased that we are able to fill a gap in the savings market by putting particularly index-linked savings certificates on sale again. They are proving to be popular, but I am advised that there is still a supply of them available. Noble Lords who would like to invest in them do not need to rush out of the Chamber at this moment.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, will the Minister take this opportunity to speak to the Independent Commission on Banking, the Vickers commission, and ask it to emphasise the concept of treating customers fairly so that savers feel, as the noble Baroness said in her supplementary question, that they are both getting a good deal and indeed can be seen to be getting that?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, this will be the focus of some of our attention when the legislation for the new regulatory structure comes forward. Treating customers fairly in the broadest sense is a critical part of what the FSA has been working on over the past few years. As we look at the remit, particularly for the new Prudential Regulation Authority within the regulatory structure, it is important to make sure that a proper focus is placed on that strand of work going forward. No doubt your Lordships will soon have an opportunity to consider these matters.

Banking

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Wednesday 9th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Higgins for pointing out that at the heart of the failure of the system and the mess that this Government have had to pick up and sort out was the failure of the tripartite system of regulation, which of course we are sweeping away. Seeing the noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith, opposite reminds me that he very perceptively characterised it as a Rolls-Royce system when it sat on the shelf but an old banger when it got on the ground. I wish that I had his turn of phrase, but the tripartite system was indeed at the heart of it.

As to bonuses and their linkage to performance, that is absolutely at the heart of what the Government have agreed with the banks today. I think that the critical new element is the linkage between the performance of the banks on meeting SME lending targets and the pay of the chief executive and the other senior executives who are directly responsible for that line of business. Therefore, it is a crucial point. It is well made by my noble friend and it is at the heart of this agreement.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

I refer the House to the Register of Lords’ Interests, as I have an interest in this area. Does the Minister not agree that there is still too much wriggle room on the issue of transparency for the banks and that one of the big issues in this crisis was the mispricing of risk? Therefore, the more people whose salaries are known—particularly, for example, traders, although I do not know whether that is taken into consideration here—the better in terms of aligning the risk. When we talk about bankers’ bonuses and anger, the Governor of the Bank of England had it right when he appeared before the Treasury Select Committee a few years ago and said that the incentive structure in banking was distorted. Do the Government not agree that we need to tackle that issue to ensure that we restore trust and confidence in the banking sector?

[Lord Sassoon]

Indeed, I completely agree with the noble Lord, Lord McFall. With regard to the Merlin agreement, the fact that the five highest-paid senior executive officers now come within the remuneration disclosure is very important. As the noble Lord will know, senior executive officers typically encompass not only those responsible for managing the key divisions but also people such as the chief financial officer and the chief risk officer, who are at the heart of controlling risk in the system. Therefore, I think that the noble Lord’s point is very well made and, as I said, the Government will consult on this issue in the forthcoming year.

Equality

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Tuesday 8th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, we took some very difficult decisions about which of the previous Government’s measures we would continue with and which we would not. The principal measure of the previous Government that we did not continue with was the full national insurance tax—the jobs tax—which would have been a significant drag on the growth prospects of this economy. Of course it was right that we should take into account the distributional effect of the total package of measures that we put through as a Government this year in the Budget and in the spending review. That is just what we have done.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

Is it the Government’s intention to adhere to the last Government’s ambition to eliminate child poverty completely by 2020?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, this Government are committed to the Child Poverty Act 2010. I note that the previous Government struggled somewhat with their previous child poverty target; the target to halve child poverty by 2010 was widely acknowledged to have been missed. This Government are committed to the targets in the Child Poverty Act and will bring forward a strategy by the end of March 2011.

Financial Services: Shareholder Engagement

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Wednesday 19th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with the financial services industry on shareholder engagement.

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, the Government are committed to improving shareholder engagement and have already taken significant steps, including the new remuneration disclosure rules, the FRC stewardship code and the revised corporate governance code. We have also issued a call for evidence on governance and short-termism. This will establish whether there are issues affecting the functioning of capital markets, including questions about shareholder engagement. Ministers and officials have had meetings with a variety of organisations as part of the process of policy development and delivery in this area.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

The concept of ownerless corporations was reinforced last week at the Treasury Committee when Bob Diamond admitted that there had been no engagement between institutional shareholders and Barclays regarding remuneration and risk structure. Does not this absence of stewardship and judgment only exacerbate a situation where, when companies are in trouble, the taxpayer has unlimited liability whereas the executives have very limited or no liability? Will the Government, therefore, reinvigorate the debate so that risk is understood and properly monitored to ensure that bond-holders take some of the pain, which they do not at the moment, and will there be minimum structural change to ensure that in future no bank is ever too big to fail?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith, ranges over some big questions there. To start with the remuneration issues, the introduction of the new FSA code of disclosure from 1 January will contribute to making shareholders better informed. My right honourable friend the Chancellor has taken note of Sir David Walker’s suggestion that there needs to be further international agreement in this area so the Chancellor has written to his EU counterparts to see what can be done to further drive forward aspects of disclosure. There is certainly a lot of activity going on there. As to some of the bigger questions about “too big to fail” and bond-holders and so on, I look forward to the light that the Independent Commission on Banking will doubtless shed on these important issues and I note that the chairman of the commission is scheduled to be making a speech in the next few days on this topic.

Banking: Bonuses

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Tuesday 11th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, all I can say is that I will listen to any ideas. I did not hear the question at the end of the four ideas put forward but I am willing to listen to all ideas from noble Lords on a whole range of topics. I am always listening but I am puzzled that when the noble Lord had so much time in government to put those ideas into operation he did not think that they were so good at the time.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

At the Treasury Select Committee this morning Bob Diamond is reported to have said that Barclays is in the position that it is not too big to fail. Does the Minister agree with that statement and, if so, does that mean that if any big bank in distress comes to the Government in future the taxpayer will not be on the hook?

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith, for reminding us that there are other challenges as well as bankers’ bonuses to be resolved. The too-big-to-fail one is absolutely at the heart of strands of ongoing work. I did not have the opportunity to listen to the whole of what Mr Diamond said to the Treasury Select Committee but I certainly believe that whether it is in the work of the Independent Commission on Banking or in the discussions that are going on in international fora, the question of how to resolve bank failures is one to which we need to continue to give considerable priority. We are reminded that the question of the structure of banking is multifaceted and we should not focus exclusively on one aspect of it.

IMF and World Bank: Appointment Procedures

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Wednesday 1st December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, who speaks from immense experience. I completely agree with what he said.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

Undemocratic and non-transparent are the buzzwords of these institutions today. Will the British Government take the lead from the German finance minister who asked for lower representation for European countries so that the sub-Saharan and developing countries can get more representation and so that we have a big step on the way to democracy for these institutions?

[Lord Sassoon]

The Government are pleased with the recent agreements in the IMF and the World Bank that have seen a significant shift of voting and quota away from the developed towards the dynamic, growing economies.

Housing: Mortgages

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Wednesday 10th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the level of new gross lending in the mortgage market is above levels seen throughout the 1990s, but, inevitably in this part of the economic cycle, it is low, as my noble friend said. Although loan-to-value thresholds are taken into account by the FSA for prudential purposes, they are not hard limits. The FSA says in its recent consultation paper that no case has been made for LTV caps on consumer protection grounds, and the FSA is not proposing to impose a maximum LTV cap. I note from just scanning mortgage products available on the internet this morning that there is still a range—admittedly a reduced range—of products with 80 per cent and 90 per cent LTV available.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, will the Government keep in mind that the affordability criteria are important given that in the past three years more than 40 per cent of mortgages have been approved without proof of income? Will they accept that further checks and balances are needed in the mortgage market to protect consumers from mis-selling, and also to prevent another reckless housing boom?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I certainly agree with the noble Lord that questions of affordability should be addressed, which is why the FSA is carrying out the consultation. The consultation is due to close shortly and forms an important part of the FSA’s ongoing work to ensure a sustainable mortgage market for the medium term.

Housing: Shared Ownership

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Monday 25th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

One of the beauties of the current system and our future system of financial regulation is that decisions about the relative riskiness of different classes of financial assets are emphatically not for government but for the financial regulator, which in due course will be the Bank of England. So while I can ask the Financial Services Authority to write to the noble Lord, I am certainly not going to second-guess its judgments.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, are not all the building societies that became plcs now bust and out of business, and is there not a case for looking at mutualisation with responsibility? Surely the Government should be encouraging the FSA to go along those lines so that we have good mutual organisations, which have existed in the past, lending responsibly.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, it is important that we have diversity and a variety of providers of financial services. In that context, building societies of course have an important role to play—particularly in the area of shared-ownership mortgages, which is the subject of the Question. Many building societies continue to offer products in this area, and I welcome that.

Finance Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord McFall of Alcluith

Monday 26th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

I look forward to seeing if and when the noble Lord, Lord Myners, returns to the City. There are accepted practices and terms for all who have worked in different parts of the public sector when they return to the City or elsewhere. Perhaps I may move on to talk about the new fiscal mandate.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

If the OBR members have access to confidential information and take that away with them, will it be available to them in their new job a few days after leaving the OBR? The purdah issue is very important. Can the Minister address it?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I believe that I have addressed the point. As with any such office, it would be inconceivable if members of the OBR took confidential information away with them. Just as the noble Lord, Lord Stern, has referred to a report which he compiled for Ministers in 2004 but which he left behind in 2007, it would be extraordinary to suggest that those working on sensitive matters in the public sector would take away secret documents.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

They are taking away information in their head. It is intellectual property; it is not taking away documents. The Minister is being less than open with us if he puts that construction on it.

[Lord Sassoon]

The OBR receives unpublished information of different kinds and then publishes its forecasts publicly. I should have thought that the information the OBR has is of limited ongoing value. However, I have listened carefully to the points made by noble Lords. As the legislation to set up the OBR on a permanent basis goes through the House, there will be other opportunities for noble Lords to discuss the issue more fully. However, as we are concentrating today on the Finance Bill, perhaps I may move on and discuss matters which are of more direct relevance to that Bill.

I have said, and will return to say again, that the new fiscal mandate will eliminate the deficit in five years and that the bulk of this reduction will come from lower spending rather than higher taxes. However, this autumn’s spending review is not only about cuts and tackling the deficit; it will be a complete re-evaluation of the Government’s role in providing public services. I take the point to which my noble friend Lord Razzall rightly drew attention in our earlier discussions about this. As to the specific point made by the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, even areas which are protected—such as the National Health Service—will be looked at to ensure that administration costs are cut. I agree with the noble Lord that that should be done; the question is where and how such administration cuts should be recycled.

We have set out our steps for tackling the budget deficit and we have done so in a more transparent way than any previous Government. Some noble Lords have argued that, because we have lifted the skirt a bit, they would now like the skirt to be lifted a lot further. However, they do not give us much credit for the greater transparency we have already introduced.

We are on track to have debt falling and a balanced structural current budget by the end of this Parliament. It is only by acting quickly to tackle the deficit and restore confidence in the public finances that we will underpin and achieve economic growth. Action of this kind requires us to take tough decisions. A number of noble Lords have questioned this basic judgment, starting with the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. I was struck by the intervention from the opposition Benches of the noble Lord, Lord Desai, who did not in any way question the basic Budget judgment and gave a very balanced account. I had a look two or three times at the briefing notes that officials had given me just to check that the noble Lord was sitting on the right Benches, because I thought it was a very balanced account of the judgment that has been taken. And of course there are risks ahead. The basic judgment was questioned by other noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Tunnicliffe and Lord Rosser. We had one quote from the OECD. The one I have to hand is from its Secretary-General, Angel Gurría, who hailed the Budget as a courageous move by the British Government, and said:

“It provides the necessary degree of fiscal consolidation over the coming years to restore public finances to a sustainable path, while still supporting the recovery”.

That is the basic judgment at the heart of the Budget.

The recent G20 communiqué stated that those countries with serious fiscal challenges needed to accelerate the pace of consolidation. The noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith, says that it is the UK Government calling for early fiscal consolidation but it is actually the G20 that is calling for countries such as the UK to get on with it. The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, says that we are not adopting the same policies as certain other countries. Too right. Different countries need to adopt different policies appropriate to their particular circumstances, and our circumstances are regrettably that we inherited from the previous Government the largest budget deficit in Europe except Ireland, and we have to get on and tackle it. The bulk of the deficit reduction will come from lower spending but given the astonishing size of the budget deficit, we have not been able to avoid the need to raise some taxes. My noble friend Lord Higgins asked what increase of revenue there would be in the current and next year. The figures in the Red Book in Table 2.1 on page 40 show that the amounts raised by tax policy decisions in the Budget represent an increase in revenue of £2.8 billion in 2010-11 and £6.25 billion in 2011-12.

The choices that we have now made are ones that face up to the challenges ahead and do not simply defer them to future generations. There has been precious little from the opposition Benches in the way of alternative plans and thoughts as to how we are to deal with it. I welcome the contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, in one respect and that is that he put up a radical alternative vision. It seemed to be founded on the starting premise or assertion that we can continue to push up government borrowing without limit, although even he went on to recognise that certain Governments have got to the limits of what the borrowing capacity of a country can be.

There was an interesting contrast between the contributions from the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, and my noble friend Lord Bates. The noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, postulated what might cause a businessman to invest, but I heard from my noble friend Lord Bates pretty much what I had already scribbled down as what I thought businessmen wanted, which is that they will increase their investment when they have confidence that there will be increasing orders from their customers. I believe that their confidence in their customers will be founded on the customers’ view of whether there is a grip on the economy. Businessmen will look at the level of interest rates and they will want to see them kept low. They will want and need to see credit continuing to flow. They will need to see that government expenditure is under control. They will want to see that regulation is being tackled. They will want to see predictable and falling corporate tax rates. They will want to see that employment taxes are being cut from where the previous Government intended to take them. They will want to see that the Government, in cutting back expenditure, are maintaining investment in those areas of economic growth. These are all things which I see in the total Budget package. I agree with my noble friend Lord Bates on them.

There was discussion about value added tax and, in that context, whether this a progressive or regressive Budget. We are taking responsibility in this Bill for the financial challenges that we have inherited but in a way that is fair and open. Everyday essentials such as food and children’s clothing will remain zero-rated for VAT throughout the Parliament, protecting those on low and middle incomes. Those most affected by the VAT rise will be those who spend the most. This is clear in both government and independent analysis. If one looks at the impact of expenditure by decile, as is appropriate for a tax on expenditure, one sees that the richest pay the most and the poorest least. These points were questioned by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, but were knocked admirably on the head by the noble Lord, Lord Desai, who said that it was wrong to suggest that VAT was necessarily a regressive tax. I do not want bore everybody with more quotes from the IFS, but its view is that total expenditure is the more appropriate guide to lifetime living standards, as households smooth their expenditure over their lifetime. Analysis by expenditure rather than income level is therefore a better measure of the impact of the VAT increase and, on this basis, the VAT increase is progressive.

Other noble Lords made wider points on whether the Budget is regressive or progressive, including the noble Lords, Lord Lea of Crondall, Lord Rosser, and, again, Lord Myners. They questioned whether policies of the previous Government should be included in the assessment. The IFS accepts that, looking at the Budget as a whole, the changes are progressive. It does not make sense, surely, to ignore the policies of the previous Government which the coalition Government have decided to retain and will legislate to implement.