Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland: Border Controls

Debate between Lord Russell of Liverpool and Lord True

Thursday 4th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord. I will end as I began, by condemning all violence and threats of violence. Flexibilities have been invoked. They are required on both sides, as are pragmatism and proportionality. In the negotiation, we need to provide a reassurance that all parties will respect the basis on which the protocol was agreed. That includes full recognition of Northern Ireland’s status as an integral part of the United Kingdom, respecting its place in the UK’s customs territory and internal market and recognising the integral social, economic and cultural ties that bind the UK as a whole, and safeguarding the streamlined flow of goods between Britain and Northern Ireland on which so many lives and livelihoods rely. We are also respecting the need to maintain the support of both communities. That is our objective and it is the one to which Her Majesty’s Government are dedicated. I hope sincerely that our counterparties in the European Union will address the same agenda.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

My Lords, all the supplementary questions to this Question have been asked.

Protocol on Northern Ireland: Disruption to Trade

Debate between Lord Russell of Liverpool and Lord True

Thursday 14th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I can certainly give the noble Lord the assurance that we will work extremely hard to overcome difficulties. As I just said in reply to my noble friend Lord Caine, the Prime Minister stated the position on the record in the House of Commons yesterday as far as Article 16 is concerned. Obviously, I stand by his words. As for movement of traffic, everybody should feel that they can and must send goods to every part of our kingdom normally. Flows of trucks into Belfast are now normal. There have been issues at Holyhead, but movements there are increasing and we hope to see that trend continue.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

I apologise for leap-frogging over the next speaker, the noble Lord, Lord Lilley.

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[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I am not following any further the comment that people did not understand where they were when decisions were taken on whether to leave. I believe that we should all leave that behind us. On the specific question, at the end of the grace period, as I said in an earlier reply, the UK will continue to work with supermarkets and retailers. We have a dedicated group of officials working on this. We are seeking new end-to-end digital systems that will enable goods to be moved in accordance with the protocol in the most streamlined way, and this will be backed by a major injection of UK government funding as part of a broader support package. However, it behoves all sides under this agreement, including the EU, to behave in a proportionate manner.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.

Elections: May 2021

Debate between Lord Russell of Liverpool and Lord True

Thursday 14th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I apologise for being guilty of bureaucratic gobbledegook. At the risk of repeating an earlier answer, the most unprecedented pandemic for generations is raging in this country. Occasionally, the Government are taken to task for not being cautious and advisory, but—I repeat—the Government’s position is that the elections can go ahead in a safe and secure way; there would have to be a very high bar for that not to happen. But I accept the noble Lord’s point that total clarity is always the ideal.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.

UK-EU Withdrawal Agreement

Debate between Lord Russell of Liverpool and Lord True

Thursday 10th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, there was a very large number of questions there, but most appeared to be in the “dissatisfied” column. I know the House finds this not particularly pleasant to hear, but the United Kingdom Government have made it clear for a very long time that we would not accept an agreement that did not recognise the decision of the people of United Kingdom twice to vote for a sovereign separation from the European Union which should involve our right to control our laws, our borders and our waters.

I infer from the noble Baroness’s remarks that the Labour Party would accept a deal that would not provide us with control of our borders, our laws and our fish because the line she put forward was effectively “agreement at any cost”. We are working tirelessly to get a deal. The Prime Minister made that clear. As I said, we have been clear from the outset that we cannot accept a deal at any cost. As has been made clear this week, there are still differences between the two parties. To repeat what I just said, we cannot accept a deal that will compromise control of our money, our laws, our borders and our fish.

I say in response to both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord that we have been preparing for a long time for all contingencies. We have discussed matters with the devolved Administrations, businesses and affected partners. We have issued advice on a border control operating scheme. We have issued advice to various sectors in Northern Ireland. We are engaged in constant discussions and meetings with those who will potentially be affected. We are also preparing for an Australian-style outcome if necessary. We have invested £705 million in jobs, technology and infrastructure at the border, and provided substantial grants to boost the customs intermediary sector and so on.

The majority of the changes, referring to the impact on businesses, will occur from 1 January 2021 regardless of whether a free trade agreement is made with the EU. Of course, I accept one could always do more to perfect communication, and we are investing an enormous amount of resources to get the case over, to reach businesses and to reach those affected. We are absolutely committed to ensuring businesses have all the information they need to get ready. But I was not sure if the noble Lord was objecting to the idea of phasing the introduction of some arrangements. We believe that that is a sensible and pragmatic approach.

On security, we see no reason why security arrangements should be seriously affected. There is a common interest for all the countries in Europe in relation to security.

On labelling, I may be misremembering, but I believe I wrote to the noble Lord on 30 November with a detailed answer to his question on labelling. If he has not received the letter, I apologise, but I am informed by my office that it was sent.

I was also asked about supermarkets. It is not only supermarkets that we wish to help with the new trader assistance approach; we will reach beyond large operators, but the grace period is offered to supermarkets.

It was implied that EU officials will be issuing directions to United Kingdom staff, but I can assure the House that that is not the case. The House is constantly asking the Government to honour the terms of the protocol, and as the House knows, within the protocol, the EU has the right to ensure and see that matters are being appropriately conducted. But that has never meant, and will never mean, that the EU necessarily has to have an office, embassy or mission building in Belfast. I stand by the comments I and other Ministers have made.

On the announcement today of a new deal for Northern Ireland, the £400 million is on top of other resources announced for assistance with making preparations. So, there is no double counting there; this is new resource.

As far as debates are concerned, both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord will understand that that is a matter for usual channels. There will be another Statement on Monday, I believe, but I hear the noble Lord’s comment about a wider debate. However, he will understand that limited time is available.

Looking at the clock, I am not sure whether I am bound by the 20 minute-rule. Last time I went on after 20 minutes, I was told I should not have done. I cannot get used to the rules of the hybrid House. I thought I should answer the noble Baroness first; I in no way meant to belittle the noble Lord on the Liberal Democrat Benches.

Of course, I reject absolutely the general comments about the United Kingdom Government’s stance and the accusatory remarks made about the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister has been candid, on the one hand, about our position. In a negotiation, each side needs to understand the other’s position. The purported subject of the Statement repeated to the House—the Joint Committee agreement on the Northern Ireland protocol—is a good example of pragmatic co-operation. So, there is evidence that the United Kingdom Government are prepared to seek agreement and negotiate in good faith.

The position, I am afraid to say, does remain, as has been made clear on innumerable occasions—this is not a change or a novelty—that we simply are asking the EU, with the greatest respect, to accept free trade agreement arrangements with us that are similar to those it has agreed with other nations around the world. We do not think that that is an unreasonable request or aspiration. We also ask that they respect and understand the decision of the British people that they wish to have—I make no apology for using the word—sovereign control of their laws, their borders and their waters.

I believe a pragmatic and good outcome is the main burden of this Statement in relation to the agreement on the Northern Ireland protocol. As far as the broader negotiations are concerned, those are continuing, albeit amid the candour on both sides about the difficulties that remain. Let us see how events turn out over the next few days.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

We now come to the 30 minutes allocated for Back-Bench questions. There are 18 speakers listed. I appeal to all noble Lords, out of courtesy to one another and to the House, to be extremely brief. I am sure that the Minister will also be succinct.

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[Lord True (Con)]

That is certainly true. At the end of the day, the maintenance of the protocol will remain a matter for democratic decision by the people of Northern Ireland. I am grateful for my noble friend’s opening remarks.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

The noble Lord, Lord Bird, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Clark of Windermere.

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[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I repeat the very substantial announcements of financial support for Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland business that I referred to in earlier responses. On VAT, as part of implementing the VAT elements of the Northern Ireland protocol, the UK and the EU Commission have needed to agree how EU VAT rules will apply in the unique circumstances created in Northern Ireland, where traders will continue to be part of both the UK and the EU system. That agreement has been reached and is laid out in the Statement. Further guidance on these topics is being published for traders.

We have heard a concern raised about the application of EU second-hand margin schemes. Obviously, these changes will not affect stock bought in advance of 1 January, even if it is sold later, but we acknowledge that this is not a long-lasting solution to these issues. We aim to minimise disruption for Northern Ireland traders to the extent possible, and we continue to explore options.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

The noble Lord, Lord Balfe, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Rooker.

Manifesto Commitments

Debate between Lord Russell of Liverpool and Lord True

Tuesday 16th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

My Lords, the Government intend to be and are a Government for all people and respect every person in this country, not only the many who—as my noble friend rightly said—voted for them. The Government have made a major change in the face of the Covid crisis in giving unprecedented help to people at disadvantage. That in itself is a manifest of this Government’s intent and spirit.

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I follow up and reinforce the point made in the pertinent question from the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, and the Minister’s answer. Can the Minister please give an undertaking that during the review of the care system, careful attention will be paid to some of the innovative approaches that have evolved directly as a result of the lockdown and ensure that these are built into that review?

[Lord True]

My Lords, I do not carry direct responsibility for that area of policy, but the noble Lord is of course right to say that all lessons from the Covid crisis and experience must be learned; they are being learned and will be applied.