Motor Vehicles (Wearing of Seat Belts) (Amendment) Regulations 2015
Debate between Lord Rosser and Lord Popat(9 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Rosser (Lab)
I thank the Minister for explaining the purpose of and reasoning behind this order, which we support. As the noble Lord said, the regulations exempt persons riding in an ambulance from the requirement to wear a seat belt while providing emergency medical attention or treatment to a patient for whom such treatment cannot be delayed. Indeed, one assumes that in reality ambulance personnel have been ignoring the existing regulation in these circumstances since, I am sure, they put the welfare and indeed the survival of their patients ahead of abiding by seat belt regulations—and ahead of their own personal safety. Not being in a position where seat belts can be worn places the safety of ambulance personnel in jeopardy if the ambulance itself is involved in a road accident or incident either directly or indirectly. I assume that the purpose of the order is to regularise a situation that I imagine has existed on almost a daily basis.
I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm—I am sure that the answer will be “yes”, given what is set out in the Explanatory Memorandum to the regulations—that this measure has also received the support of the trade unions which represent ambulance personnel.
Perhaps I may also take what is to an extent a liberty by raising another point. I hasten to say that I do not expect the Minister to respond to it today since I accept that, while it relates to an aspect of wearing seat belts, it is not one that even I could argue is covered by these regulations. It would be helpful if the Minister could let me know in due course either what decision the Government have made, or when they expect to make a decision, following a consultation in 2011 on the implementation and method of enforcement of the 2003 EU directive requiring children aged three and up to 14 travelling in a coach to wear seat belts. As I say, I appreciate that I am taking a bit of a liberty in raising this issue now, but if the Minister is subsequently able to give me the answer, I shall be extremely grateful to him. Again, we support the order before the Committee.
Lord Popat
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for supporting the order. The noble Viscount, Lord Simon, asked a question about St John Ambulance. These regulations apply the definition of “motor ambulance” in Regulation 3(2) of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulation 1986. A motor ambulance is defined as a purpose-built motor vehicle which is specifically constructed and equipped for medical purposes. I am pleased to say that that applies to St John Ambulance.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked what paramedics do at the moment when they need to provide treatment. Obviously, they do an excellent job. Given the imperative for paramedics to preserve life and give treatment to the patient in the ambulance, we understand that they will carry out treatment using their judgment and will remove their seat belt if necessary. I am glad they have that exemption now so that whatever work they do will be legal.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, also raised the outstanding issue of buses and coaches having seat belts for children under 14. This legislation took a long time to come here because we had to get permission from the European Union. Legislation requiring that seat belts are worn by children under 14 is being prepared by the Department for Transport and will be presented to the House for consideration when it is finalised and cleared.
I hope that I have answered all the questions. I will certainly look at Hansard and, if I have left anything out, I will be very happy to write to noble Lords.
Lord Rosser
I raised a question that relates to the order. It was about whether trade unions representing ambulance personnel supported the change. I am sure they did, but perhaps the Minister can confirm that.
Lord Popat
There was widespread consultation on this—a 12-week consultation about changes to specific exemptions, which closed in February 2103. A wide range of stakeholders responded, including representatives from the ambulance service and road safety groups. There was also widespread support for the proposal across all stakeholder groups. I guess that “all stakeholders groups” would include the CBI and the TUC.
I hope that I have addressed all the questions. As I said earlier, I will be very happy to look at Hansard and, if I have left anything out, I will respond.
Channel Tunnel
Debate between Lord Rosser and Lord Popat(9 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Popat
My Lords, I take the point about new rolling stock. I am quite aware of the new rolling stock that our train operating companies in the UK will be introducing. This is a private company and, frankly, I am not briefed on whether new rolling stock has been ordered for Eurotunnel and Eurostar.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
My Lords, safety regulation is a key responsibility of the binational, British and French, Channel Tunnel Intergovernmental Commission, which has as its statutory independent safety advisory body the Channel Tunnel Safety Authority. The Secretary of State appoints the heads of the British delegations to the intergovernmental commission and the Channel Tunnel Safety Authority, so this issue is not just related to the incident happening on the French side of the tunnel. Bearing in mind that fire is a tunnel’s biggest enemy, and that there have previously been fires in 1996, 2006 and 2008 in the Channel Tunnel, are the Government still satisfied with the safety arrangements and procedures for the carrying of lorries and their loads by rail through the tunnel—yes or no?
Lord Popat
My Lords, I will take the safety aspect. The Channel Tunnel Safety Authority will be looking into the problems last weekend and at whether Eurotunnel needs to make further improvements. The Rail Accident Investigation Branch is also making preliminary inquiries in conjunction with its French counterpart, BEA-TT. We will wait for the report to come out to see what further things we can do. It is important that it is safe to travel, and it is of equal gain to both countries that our lorries travel from one end to the other.
Motor Vehicles (Variation of Speed Limits) (England and Wales) Regulations 2014
Debate between Lord Rosser and Lord Popat(9 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Popat
That the Grand Committee do consider the Motor Vehicles (Variation of Speed Limits) (England and Wales) Regulations 2014.
Relevant document: 17th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments
Lord Rosser (Lab)
I apologise to the Minister. I would not normally seek to intervene before he even started but I failed to find both impact assessments on these issues. As I understand it, we are dealing with an increase in two speed limits: from 40 miles per hour to 50 miles per hour on the single carriageway and from 50 miles per hour to 60 miles per hour on the dual carriageway. I inquired in the Printed Paper Office but it appeared to have only an impact assessment for raising the speed limit on dual carriageway roads. Before we start, has there been an impact assessment on increasing the speed limits on single carriageway roads or is there only one impact assessment?
Lord Popat (Con)
My Lords, there are two impact assessments and I would be happy to give the noble Lord the one on the roads going from 40 miles per hour to 50 miles per hour sometime later today.
Lord Rosser
I can say only that I just inquired about it and was not given one in the Printed Paper Office, where they had a good look for it.
Lord Popat
My Lords, I have a copy of it here. I am quite happy to pass it to the noble Lord.
Lord Rosser
Maybe I am getting horribly confused—that is quite likely—but the one I have just been given by the clerk is the one I already have. It says:
“Raising the speed limit for HGVs … on dual carriageway roads”.
Lord Rosser
I see—I now also have the single carriageway one here. Maybe the clerk has only the one of them. I am sorry.
Lord Popat
My Lords, thank you. These draft regulations are being made to increase the national speed limit for heavy goods vehicles of more than 7.5 tonnes on single carriageways from 40 mph to 50 mph and on dual carriageways from 50 mph to 60 mph, in England and Wales. The freight and logistics sector is an essential part of the UK economy. Improving conditions for growth in the logistics sector is critical to the Government’s growth agenda. Raising heavy goods vehicle speed limits, particularly on single carriageway roads, will lead to quicker journeys and lower costs for the sector, aiding economic growth and generating economic benefits of £11.8 million per year. It will also reduce frustration for the many drivers who find themselves stuck behind slower-moving lorries on busy roads and are unable to overtake.
These speed limit changes are part of a wider package of associated measures that the Government are bringing forward to continue to increase economic efficiency and remove outdated restrictions. The new limits will better reflect the capabilities of modern heavy goods vehicles. They will also ensure that heavy goods vehicle speed limits are proportionate to those of other large vehicles, such as coaches and cars towing caravans, and to the speed limits on motorways.
Vehicle-specific speed limits are set out in the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, but the current speed limits have been in place since the 1960s. Since then, huge improvements have been made in vehicle design and highways engineering, and these limits are now outdated. What is more, our expectations of faster journey times and lower-cost goods are relying on heavy goods vehicle drivers systematically breaking the law. On single carriageways, the current 40 miles per hour speed limit causes unnecessary cost to vehicle operators and congestion. Because of the 20 miles per hour differential between heavy goods vehicle and car speed limits, lengthy queues of traffic often develop behind heavy good vehicles that adhere to the 40 miles per hour speed limit. This leads to avoidable accidents where following drivers become frustrated and make unsafe overtaking manoeuvres.
It is for these reasons that in July last year, the Government announced plans to increase the national speed limit for heavy goods vehicles to 50 miles per hour on single carriageways. The Government commissioned research into the potential impacts of the change and conducted an impact assessment and full public consultation. We also looked at what we could learn from other countries who are also leaders in road safety, such as the Netherlands and Norway, which already have 50 miles per hour speed limits for heavy goods vehicles on rural single carriageway roads.
Our impact assessment suggested that the change in speed limits could, in isolation and based on current road safety figures, result in an increase in fatal accidents of two to three per year as a result of higher average speeds. It also suggested that reducing the speed limit differential between heavy goods vehicles and other traffic could reduce accidents.
The public consultation highlighted that some respondents had reservations about increasing the speed limit due to concerns about road safety, road maintenance and the environment. To address these concerns, we are taking forward a package of measures to improve heavy goods vehicles’ safety, including encouraging local authorities to consider whether lower speed limits are appropriate on some roads because of high numbers of pedestrians or cyclists, the road condition or where there is a possible risk of air quality limits being exceeded. We will also conduct an evaluation study of the impacts of the change within five years of it coming into force.
In November last year, the Government also announced plans to increase the national speed limit on dual carriageways for heavy goods vehicles from 50 to 60 miles per hour to complement the decision about the single carriageway speed limit. This change will modernise the speed limit and bring it into line with the behaviour of professional heavy goods vehicle drivers, but the Government’s analysis suggests that it will not result in significant changes to average heavy goods vehicles’ speeds. This is because heavy goods vehicles already travel at the same speed limit on dual carriageways as on motorways, which have a 60 miles per hour speed limit. It is implausible that lorries will travel faster on dual carriageways than on motorways because motorways have fewer obstacles and are built to higher standards. So we think that the practical effects of this change on dual carriageways alone are limited.
The proposed new speed limits received significant support in the public consultations and I believe that they represent a pragmatic change that reflects the needs and capabilities of a modern transport network. I beg to move.
Lord Rosser
I thank the Minister for explaining the purpose and reasoning behind these regulations. I have one or two points that I wish to raise and if the answer to those points is in the impact assessment I have just been given, I hope he will accept that I have not really had a chance to digest its contents in the few minutes that I have had it.
The Minister has not indicated that there has been lobbying for this increase from the road haulage industry. Perhaps he can say whether that is the case, bearing in mind that many are of the view that increasing HGV speed limits is a priority for the haulage industry.
We do not intend to oppose the increases in the speed limits but we wish to express some reservations about the way the Government appear to have handled this matter and to make some comments on the supporting documentation. It seems from the work undertaken that the safety impacts of the single carriageway increase from 40 to 50 miles per hour are somewhat inconclusive. It would be helpful, although I have no doubt that the information is in the document that I have just been given, if the Minister could say what the Government’s impact assessment shows that the increase to 50 miles per hour will result in, in terms of any additional fatalities or serious accidents each year. Once again, I accept that that information may be in the document that I have been given. Could he also indicate how many fatal accidents involving heavy goods vehicles in excess of 7.5 tonnes there are currently each year on single carriageway roads, so that we can see whether it is accepted that there will be an increase and, if so, at what kind of percentage level that increase is projected to be?
The evidence of a link between increased speed and crashes is well documented. It is estimated that one-third of deaths on the road are caused partly by excessive speed. There has been nothing but anecdotal evidence to suggest that road safety will improve due to less of what is described as “risky overtaking” in the Explanatory Memorandum, as a justification for these measures, if the speed limit for HGVs is raised.
As I look at the Explanatory Memorandum, the single carriageway speed increase appears to have been objected to by nearly three-quarters of respondents to the Government’s consultation, so one could suggest that not very much weight has been given to the results of the consultation. Is it not also the case that the increase in the speed limit is being pushed ahead before the Department for Transport has concluded its promised review of rural road safety?
The consultation on increasing the speed limit for HGVs on single carriageway roads, according to the Explanatory Memorandum, was launched in November 2012 and went on for three months, until the beginning of February 2013. A decision to proceed was not made, presumably, until very recently—that is, 2014. One could construe that the delay was, at least in part, because the Government knew from the responses that the change was likely to be controversial, but perhaps the Minister could comment on that point.
There does not appear to have been too much of an attempt to assess the impact of higher speed limits on dual carriageways. The Government have, presumably, not properly assessed costs and benefits for the dual carriageway increase because they are of the view that, in reality, the speed at which vehicles go will remain the same. However, the majority of respondents to the consultation did not agree with that assertion, which, if it is incorrect, could lead to significant impacts for road safety, the environment and road maintenance. Higher average speeds for larger vehicles will increase fuel consumption, emissions of CO2 and particulates and noise levels. However, it is not clear why the Government want to increase the speed limit for heavy goods vehicles over 7.5 tonnes from 50 to 60 miles per hour on dual carriageway roads.
The impact assessment says that the average speed at which HGVs travel in “free flow conditions” is about 53 miles per hour and asserts that the limit of 50 miles per hour is, “out of date”, apparently because it is,
“systematically ignored by professional HGV drivers”,
averaging 53 miles per hours—that is, three miles per hour more, in what are described as “free flow conditions”. If the Government regard a speed limit as being out of date because people are proceeding on average three miles per hour in excess of it, surely on that basis they must be pretty close to regarding the 30 miles per hour speed limit as being out of date, unless the Minister is going to tell us that in free-flow conditions motorists, including lorry drivers, do not go at average speeds in excess of 32 or 33 miles per hour when there is a speed limit of 30 miles an hour. Perhaps the Minister could comment on the view that a speed limit is out of date if it is being exceeded, on average, by three miles per hour, and where that leaves us in relation to the government view on a 30 mile per hour speed limit.
Lord Popat
I thank the noble Lord for a number of interesting points. I shall endeavour to answer as many as I can. Failing that, I shall be happy to write to the noble Lord.
The first question he raised concerned whether there was any lobbying by the haulage industry. It has been known for many years that the logistics industry has been pressing the Department for Transport to raise the speed limit and modernise the law. It feels that the law as it stands unnecessarily criminalises professional drivers and encourages risky overtaking by other road users. For the motorist who is trying to overtake, a lorry that is going at a much slower speed can be quite frustrating. Quite often, it can create long queues and congestion in certain areas.
The noble Lord asked what impact the speed limit change will have on road safety. The change will remove outdated restrictions set up in 1960 and 1980 and allow our roads to be better used and to better reflect the capabilities of modern heavy goods vehicles. This is one of the many changes being made to ensure that road transport regulations are fit for purpose. We have an excellent record on road safety—one of the best in the world—and I am confident that both our rural roads and lorry freight will continue to become safer. Better vehicle design, highways, engineering and changes in behaviour have all contributed to these improvements.
As to dual carriageways, in practice, because the Government do not believe that raising the speed limit to 60 miles per hour will result in changes in average heavy goods vehicles’ speeds, the change is not expected to have any impact on road safety. On single carriageways, analysis indicates that the direct effect of the speed limit changes on road safety on their own will be relatively small. The impact assessment identified a small additional risk to road safety resulting from the increase in speed—an additional two or three fatalities a year, assuming no other changes. However, it also identifies a potential benefit from a reduction of speed variants and dangerous overtaking. It is difficult to assess the size of the benefit so the impact assessment does not include a figure for that. The Government will be carefully monitoring the impacts of the changes.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, it may be that the Minister intended to deal with this in writing, but does he have the current figure for the number of fatalities on single carriageway roads involving HGV vehicles in excess 7.5 tonnes? I think he said the projection is an increase in fatalities by three or four, or two or three—I am not sure—and presumably there will be a likely increase in serious injury. The answer will perhaps come in the written response—I am happy to wait for it—but does the Minister know whether it represents a significant or minimal increase in fatalities involving HGV vehicles in excess of 7.5 tonnes on single carriageway roads?
Lord Popat
The impact assessment states an additional two to three fatalities a year, assuming no other changes. However, it also identifies a potential benefit from a reduction of speed variants and dangerous overtaking. We do not have figures for the number of lives that can be saved and accidents that can be prevented by the increase in the speed limit. We have problems with dangerous overtaking when a lorry is being driven at a slower speed than the one suggested in the SI, so overtaking becomes easier.
The noble Lord asked about road casualties. The most recently published Reported Road Casualties Great Britain annual report highlights the lowest figure in road deaths since national records began in 1926. Deaths decreased by 2% in 2013, compared to 2012, and were down to 1,713.
Lord Popat
The figure is in the recently published report of road casualties in the United Kingdom overall. It is the lowest figure since national records began in 1926.
Lord Rosser
I suggest, as does the Explanatory Memorandum, that that is not attributed to increasing speed limits. The Government’s Explanatory Memorandum gives reasons for the improving road safety record. It states:
“Better vehicle design, highways engineering and behavioural change have all contributed to these improvements”.
There is no claim in the Explanatory Memorandum that increasing speed limits will reduce deaths.
Lord Popat
An increase in speed limits is just coming into force. It is not the reason for fewer deaths. The reasons for a low numbers are more professional drivers, better vehicles, better signage and all that. This is why the department wants to review this after five years. We believe that, on the balance of probabilities, the number of accidents and deaths will not go up if we increase the speed limit as suggested. Bearing in mind that heavy goods vehicles break the law by driving at over 50 miles per hour on dual carriageways, we are suggesting 60 miles per hour. Remember that lorries have a meter so that they cannot exceed 56 miles per hour anyway.
Lord Rosser
So why do the Government want to increase the speed limit to 60 miles per hour if the Minister is telling us they cannot do that speed?
Lord Popat
I am saying that by increasing the limit to 60 miles per hour, the chances of their breaking the law, which they are doing now, will be less than at the moment.
Lord Rosser
I thought the Minister just said that there is a device on lorries that stops them going in excess of 56 miles per hour, so why do the Government want to increase the speed limit to 60 miles per hour?
Lord Popat
All lorries have speed limiters set at 56 miles per hour. There is no harm in increasing to 60 miles per hour. There is no point in moving the limit to 56 miles per hour. The Government are increasing the limit to 60 miles per hour in case some then can do up to 60 miles per hour. The point is that the speed limit is currently 50 miles per hour. We know that lorries break that law. By increasing the limit to 60 miles per hour, the number of people breaking the law will be minimal.
Lord Rosser
The Minister will accept that if that is his argument, that is an argument for increasing the 30 mile per hour limit because people exceed 30 miles per hour. I hope he not advocating that.
Lord Popat
I had better write to the noble Lord on our reasons for increasing the speed limit. The noble Lord asked why the Government are proceeding with the change on single carriageways when most of the consultation responses supported no change. We carefully considered the evidence provided during the consultation. We took into account the high number of hauliers represented by responding trade associations, whose membership ranges from 300 to 14,000 members. Arguably the majority of respondents were in favour of an increase in the limit.
We consider the benefits of change, including time savings and a reduction in congestion and frustration, to be worth while and are confident that rural roads and lorry fleets will continue to become safer and that any road safety concerns can be addressed.
The noble Lord asked about the delayed announcement. We were unsure whether we had fully addressed all possible impacts, so we took the time to do a thorough impact assessment and a review of the impact assessment. The noble Lord asked whether the Government have not assessed the costs and benefits of the change on dual carriageways because we do not predict a change. We carried out a sensitivity test of the impact of a very small change in speed. It is set out in the impact assessment. It resulted in a benefit to business of £8.9 million per year. The safely impact was an additional 0.18 fatal accidents per year.
On local authorities’ ability to change limits, yes, the advantage of this measure is that if, in certain areas, a local authority feels that the speed limit is too high, it is empowered to change the speed limit to as low as 20 miles per hour.
Lord Rosser
The noble Lord was entitled to say that I ought to know the answer already, but obviously the fact that I am asking the question indicates that I do not. Is it in relation to any road within the local authority’s area that the local authority can decide, if it so wishes, to reduce the speed limit?
Lord Popat
Yes, if the local authority feels that, in certain parts of the area, having higher speed limits is not safe, it has the right to reduce the speed limit to 30 miles per hour.
Lord Rosser
I am simply asking the question because I do not know the answer. Is it correct that that would apply on a main trunk road going through the local authority area—that the local authority, if it so wished, could decide to reduce the speed limit?
Lord Popat
The answer is yes. We talked about the speed limit being out of date. Let me write to the noble Lord on the subject. My briefing says that if the local authority, within its contested areas, is worried about the safety of people living around there, it has the power to reduce the speed limit. But let me write to the noble Lord on the subject.
Lord Popat
My Lords, we talked about the speed limit being out of date. I said earlier that, while heavy goods drivers already exceed existing speed limits, they cannot be caught by speed cameras, so enforcement is often very difficult. They currently break the law anyway. Heavy goods vehicles have to be fitted with speed limiters that limit them to a maximum speed of 56 miles per hour, and the average speed for heavy goods vehicles on motorways is already 53 miles per hour. Therefore, these changes are unlikely to have a big impact on speed.
I hope I have given a sufficient explanation of all the issues raised by the noble Lord; failing that, I would be very happy to write to him, as he raised a number of issues. It is a contentious issue, and I am certainly happy to look at it again and drop him a line where there is doubt.
Unmanned Aerial Vehicles
Debate between Lord Rosser and Lord Popat
Lord Popat
I agree with the noble Baroness. We are at the forefront of this technology and are probably number one in the world. However, we need to make sure that we do not kill the industry by bringing in too much legislation. It is important that this technology makes a good contribution to our GDP and there is long-term potential for trading in it. I am sure that, given time, it will continue to thrive.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
In response to a Question in this House, the Government stated that unmanned aircraft were closely regulated by the Civil Aviation Authority but that more needed to be done to make the rules clear. How many non-military unmanned aerial vehicles are there which can be flown legally in our airspace, and which key rules or regulations relating to unmanned aerial vehicles do the Government consider are not clear or understood?
Lord Popat
My Lords, I do not have the figures on those unmanned aircraft, but what is important is that we treat them exactly the same as manned aircraft, and they are closely monitored by the Civil Aviation Authority. With regard to small unmanned aircraft, there is a lesser extent of monitoring, which is what we are looking at very closely through our European Union Committee. We hope that we will have an outcome in January so that we can see what action we need to take to ensure the safety and security of unmanned aircraft.
Channel Tunnel Security Regime
Debate between Lord Rosser and Lord Popat(10 years, 4 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Lord Popat (Con)
My Lords, I am pleased to address this Question for Short Debate which the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, has secured on whether the Government have plans to set up an independent review of the Channel Tunnel security regime to consider whether it is proportionate and appropriate to current threats and risks. I am grateful to him and to the noble Lords, Lord Bradshaw and Lord Rosser, for their thoughts on this very important issue.
Security is a delicate issue to debate, as there are matters touching on the precise nature of the security regime that covers the Channel Tunnel that cannot be discussed in too great detail for obvious reasons. It might be helpful, however, if I put into context, as far as I can, the very serious threat we continue to face in the UK and the West generally from international terrorism.
We know from sad experience through events such as the 9/11 attack on the World Trade Center in New York, the Madrid train bombings, the London Underground suicide attacks and the liquids plot associated with transatlantic flights, that terrorism exists not just in the UK but internationally. We know also that al-Qaeda and its affiliates have aspirations to cause mass casualties and economic damage that have political and psychological impact. We also know that transport systems are attractive targets for the terrorist because they fulfil those aspirations. As a result, Governments have had to make a variety of adjustments in transport security regimes to reduce the risks of attack and to protect the travelling public, but with each adjustment comes a desire from the terrorist to be ever more innovative. New methods of attack designed to circumvent the systems in place are clearly demonstrated, with the recent changes to aviation security. For example, in America there is now a requirement to see mobile phones as well as laptops.
Twenty years ago, when the Channel Tunnel, one of the most costly and ambitious civil engineering projects of the 20th century, was opened, the main terrorist threat came from the IRA, whereby we had to contend mainly with protecting against vehicle bombs and hidden devices. Islamist terrorism has since emerged, with perpetrators willing to die for their cause; hence we have seen suicide bombings on the London Underground and 9/11, where aircraft were used as missiles, as well as the marauding active shooters in Mumbai and Nairobi. We have also seen terrorists attempting to use more subtle and novel methodologies to achieve their aims, including by liquid explosives and the shoe bomber, to give a few examples.
The Government have to be able to counter in a proportionate way all relevant risks and attack methodologies. Hence we take intelligence-based advice and analysis from an independent body, the Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre, and tailor security regimes to address new and emerging risks, as well as making sure that existing risks are mitigated. The threat from international terrorism continues and currently the threat to the UK is assessed as substantial, meaning that an attack is a strong possibility. We, as a responsible Government, must take note of the intelligence picture, standing ready to protect our citizens and infrastructure.
The security measures in place are tailored to the mode of transport operating through the Channel Tunnel, which explains why there are differences between Eurostar, passenger and freight shuttles and rail freight. That requires balancing convenience to travellers and business against security. It is not an exact science but, as there have been no successful attacks associated with the Channel Tunnel, we can take that as an indication that the security regime is sufficiently robust to deter and prevent acts of violence. In view of that, the measures would seem to be proportionate and appropriate, but we cannot be complacent.
It has been argued by some that there is no difference between the Channel Tunnel and London Underground, where security is less pronounced. Contrary to that view, the Government believe that there are a number of significant differences. Following the 2005 attacks on the Underground, Government considered the introduction of security screening measures to protect the travelling public, but found it nearly impossible and impractical do so for mass transit networks. As we saw in 2005, there were many alternative routes and modes available for travellers. Furthermore, any incident in the Channel Tunnel could potentially be 25 kilometres from the exit, making quick assistance difficult in the event of a bomb attack. That is further complicated in the event of a hostage or firearms attack, when intervention would be necessary. Unfortunately we know from experience the impact and disruption a fire in the Channel Tunnel can cause—that was without any casualties—and the psychological trauma an incident underground and below the Channel would have.
I also remind the Committee that the matter of the Channel Tunnel’s security is not just a UK responsibility. The fixed link straddles British and French territory. For that reason, both countries share responsibility for its defence and security. We must work together to protect the fixed link and the measures should reflect the terrorist threats that are relevant to both our countries. In that pursuit, the two Governments liaise regularly on issues relating to its continued protection. The security regime cannot be effective without joint consideration and comparable security measures on either side of the tunnel.
I am conscious that the noble Lord has an ambition for the tunnel to be utilised to its full potential and to make sure that our security is proportionate. We do not see security as a barrier to having other operatives operate within the Channel Tunnel. If we look at the figures, they do not support an argument for a review of the security. With traffic numbers on the increase, the Government recognise that economically, growth in this area is very important to the UK. We keep security measures under constant review to ensure that they remain proportionate and encourage growth. We have actively engaged with new operators on security to ensure that they understand what is expected of them. In those discussions, we have recognised the need for a flexible approach in the security requirements but they must be able to offer a similar level of protection as exists now.
The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, spoke about Anglo-French relations. I am pleased to say that we have regular discussions with our French colleagues and operators. Earlier this month, through the Channel Tunnel joint security committee, the UK and French Governments invited stakeholders—including the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, in his capacity as chairman of the Rail Freight Group—to preview a joint document that updates previous guidance on security and is referred to as the declaration of intent. This sets out the security requirements considered necessary by both Governments to protect the Channel Tunnel and those using it. It is an important document which recognises the need to be flexible in future, with the potential expansion of the rail passenger network beyond France. It would not be appropriate, for instance, with single services per day, to insist that permanent infrastructure be provided or that specific security equipment be used. We support proposals to use new technology that can improve the passenger experience and provide similar levels of security. At the meeting, stakeholders were given an opportunity to make some initial comments about the declaration of intent and the plan is to issue the joint document for formal consultation. The two Governments will of course make adjustments to it, where they see that there is merit to do so.
The Government must take security very seriously: this includes any terrorist threat to transport, including the Channel Tunnel. By keeping the threat and security measures under review, and planning jointly to consult stakeholders on revised guidance later in the year, the Government’s view is that the security regime in place is both appropriate and proportionate, providing the correct balance between protection and ease of use. The Government therefore see no need to carry out an independent review of the Channel Tunnel security regime.
A number of questions were raised during the debate. Let me first cover the issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, on whether the security measures are proportionate, practical and necessary and about the options for change, since nothing has really happened in the last 20 years. I say to the noble Lord that the requirement for passengers’ vehicles and goods to be subject to security and screening measures is an appropriate and proportionate response to the nature of the threat. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, also raised the issue of balancing the inconvenience to travellers and business against security and costs. The current measures are necessary to ensure the safety and security of the travelling public and to provide an effective deterrent, together with other safety and security measures, to those who may seek to undertake an attack against passengers or infrastructure. The terrorist threat levelled at all modes of transport infrastructure remains under regular review. We review that on a regular basis and have discussions with our French colleagues.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, raised the risk-based approach as applied to Channel Tunnel services. It is best if I write to him. He raised a number of issues, including trains to Amsterdam and the security measures that there will be, and co-operation between the police and immigration officers.
Lord Rosser
It is perfectly acceptable for the Minister to write to me on the questions that I have raised.
Lord Popat
I will certainly be happy to write to the noble Lord on a number of his concerns, including, in the light of the police commissioner’s comment, what the Government are doing about fingerprinting. We should take that seriously, although it is an issue for the Home Office rather than for the Department for Transport. I will ask officials to take this matter to the Home Office, which will give an appropriate response.
HS2 is an exciting project for the whole Government and the whole country. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, referred to freight traffic tracks and I will address that. Freight traffic is an expanding business and we want to make sure that we have the right capacity to help to have increased freight traffic.
Railways: High Speed 3
Debate between Lord Rosser and Lord Popat
Lord Popat
My Lords, we need to unlock the economic potential of our northern cities. The cities of the north are individually strong, but collectively not strong enough. Therefore, the floating idea of the Chancellor to have an HS3 was welcomed, but we have a lot of work to do on that.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
My Lords, last week in this House my noble friend Lord Faulkner of Worcester stated that it was,
“generally understood that the Chancellor’s announcement about HS3 came as a complete surprise to the Department for Transport”.—[Official Report, 21/7/14; col. 926.]
The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, did not deny that, and today is a second opportunity for a government Minister to do so. Is the commitment from the Government a commitment to build HS3? Is it, 10 months from an election, simply an announcement to look at the case for HS3, from a Chancellor from a northern constituency who was speaking at the Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester and worried about whether the Conservatives would hold on to such seats as Calder Valley and Colne Valley? If it is a commitment to build HS3, what benefits were revealed by the cost-benefit analysis, and who did it?
Lord Popat
My Lords, that was a long question—in fact, many questions. The Chancellor has set out a vision for how to unlock economic potential in northern cities. Something remarkable has happened to our northern cities in the last 30 years. They have done very well. It is time that we take them to another level. One way to do so is to have the infrastructure investment. We are having HS2, which has been widely discussed in this House. HS3 is a floating idea. We wait for a further report from David Higgins to justify a business case for HS3. But we need to rebalance the economy, we need to support our northern cities and HS3 will probably become a welcome idea.
Road Safety (Financial Penalty Deposit) (Appropriate Amount) (Amendment) Order 2014
Debate between Lord Rosser and Lord Popat(10 years, 10 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Lord Popat
My Lords, under this legislation it is an offence to keep a heavy goods vehicle on the road without having paid. Impounding is one way of enforcing this. The chances are that a very small number of vehicles will be impounded because most drivers carry credit cards, or quite often they will ring the owners of the haulage vehicle to see if they can make a payment over the telephone. Over time, we will know if there are any shortcomings in the system and we will do something to improve it. The noble Lord is quite right that impounding vehicles for a long time is not practical, especially when the police have to look after the vehicles. I can assure the noble Lord that I will certainly write to him on this subject.
Lord Rosser
I will follow on from that because I am still not clear who decides whether the matter goes to court, as opposed to being dealt with a fixed penalty notice or a deposit. The Minister mentioned the DVSA but I was not sure whether it made the decision of whether to go to court or it decided on the fixed penalty notice or the deposit. I am still not clear how that decision is made. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, referred earlier to people who were repeat offenders. There may also be a case where you were able to prove that a lorry had been going around without making payment for some considerable time, which is presumably rather more serious than if it has been doing it for only a day or two. Who decides, and on what basis, whether the matter goes to court?
Lord Popat
My Lords, it is no different from the existing system in the UK. We issue a fixed penalty notice. If the fixed penalty notice is not paid, then the driver is prosecuted. It will be up to the DVSA and the police to prosecute someone who has not paid their fixed penalty.
Lord Rosser
I am simply asking what the situation is—I am not trying to make a point. Will there be no instances, even if somebody has had fixed penalty notices before, where somebody says, “No fixed penalty notice this time, we are going straight to court”? Is the only reason you will end up in court that you have not paid the fixed penalty notice?
Lord Rosser
Is that an appropriate way of dealing with somebody who regularly offends and regularly does not make payments? Is there nothing that can happen before they end up in court and face a fine, potentially?