Civil Aviation Bill

Lord Rosser Excerpts

Wednesday 27th June 2012 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Rosser]

2: Clause 1, page 1, line 13, at end insert “but only where this will not conflict with its ability to carry out its functions in a manner set out in subsection (1)”

[Lord Rosser]

This amendment and Amendment 13 relate to the Civil Aviation Authority’s general duty and the Secretary of State’s general duty, as set out in Clauses 1 and 2 of the Bill. I will direct my comments to the Civil Aviation Authority’s general duty though the argument is the same in respect of the Secretary of State’s general duty.

Under Clause 1(1), the CAA must carry out its functions under Chapter 1 of the Bill,

“in a manner which it considers will further the interests of users of air transport services regarding the range, availability, continuity, cost and quality of airport operation services”.

Subsection (2) goes on to say that:

“The CAA must do so, where appropriate, by carrying out the functions in a manner which it considers will promote competition in the provision of airport operation services”.

This amendment adds to the end of that,

“but only where this will not conflict with its ability to carry out its functions in a manner set out in subsection (1)”.

In the absence of any definition of what “where appropriate” in subsection (2) is intended to mean or how it is to be interpreted in the context of the Bill, there appears to be an assumption in subsection (2) that promoting competition in the provision of airport operation services will further the interests of users of air transport services. Promoting competition does not necessarily further the interests of users of air transport services regarding range, availability, continuity, cost and quality because it can lead to a reduction in range, availability, continuity, cost and quality in a bid to either reduce costs or sustain profit margins, or achieve both objectives.

The amendment seeks to ensure that the requirement to promote competition,

“by carrying out the functions in a manner which it considers will promote competition in the provision of airport operation services”,

does not apply where the Civil Aviation Authority considers that to do so would conflict with its primary responsibility of furthering,

“the interests of users of air transport services”.

It would surely be unacceptable for the CAA to have to carry out its functions in a manner that it considers would promote competition when to do so would conflict with what is presumably its key responsibility to further the interests of air transport services, as set out in subsection (1), rather than the interests of the providers of airport operation services. That would defeat what appears to be a declared objective in the Bill for the Civil Aviation Authority as set out in subsection (1).

I hope the Minister will accept the amendment. However, if he does not intend to do so, I hope that he will indicate the current wording in the Bill which will prevent the CAA having to carry out its functions in a manner which it considers will promote competition in the provision of airport operation services if it felt that to do so would conflict with its duty to carry out its function in a manner which it considers will further the interests of users of air transport services. The answer may be that the Government simply believe that promoting competition cannot not be in the interests of users of air transport services, which would be a remarkable view. Alternatively, it may be that the Minister will say that the words “where appropriate” in subsection (2) give the Civil Aviation Authority the power to decide that it will not promote competition in the provision of airport operation services because to do so would conflict with its duty under subsection (1) to carry out its functions in a manner which it considers will further the interests of air transport services. If that is the case, the Minister should give a detailed explanation of what the words “where appropriate” mean in the context of the provisions of subsections (1) and (2) and how they should be interpreted and applied by the Civil Aviation Authority. I beg to move.

[Lord Soley]

I have sympathy with my noble friend. However, I do not have any answers to the problem. It is very difficult. A clause such as Clause 1 imposes certain duties on an organisation—in this case the CAA—which is a normal format in Bills that become law. However, what troubles me about such clauses—and it is not only in this one, although it happens here too—is that there is a lack of clarity, as my noble friend has pinpointed.

Subsection (3)(b) has the catch-all phrase that,

“the need to secure that all reasonable demands for airport operation services are met”.

There is one of these provisions in almost all the Bills of this type that I know. It is put in in case we have forgotten something that the CAA may want or ought to do. It covers just about everything from whether the coffee machine works to whether you have good services in other more fundamental ways.

I wonder at times whether we are being clear with the operator. Presumably the CAA is happy with the clause—I assume that it is; I have not heard anything to the contrary—but I wonder about the clarity of its operation if this becomes law, as it almost certainly will. Does the CAA have enough clarity to know what its duties are if someone challenges it? A catch-all phrase such as that in subsection (3)(b)—that the CAA has to meet the reasonable demands for airport operation services—means that it can say in certain circumstances that it does not think that a particular demand is reasonable. It could rely on the phrase if it received a legal challenge from someone or some organisation.

It is a general point but sometimes we are casual with our legislation and put in catch-all clauses and subsections. We are saying to the operator that it can do what it likes within certain limits. It may be challenged in law, although that is unlikely, and this clause is there in case it is needed. It is a catch-all clause and my noble friend is right to raise this matter as a lack-of-clarity issue.

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[Lord Rosser]

I thank the Minister for his response and my noble friend Lord Soley and the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, for their contributions to the debate. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, rather misunderstood the wording of the amendment or what I said. I did not seek to remove from subsection (2) the words that related acting in a way that promoted competition. The purpose of my amendment was to make sure that there could not be a conflict between subsections (1) and (2) by making sure that if there was a conflict, subsection (1) would prevail. That was designed so that activities would be carried out in a way that would be beneficial to the users of air transport services.

In his response, the Minister has taken one of the lines that I had suggested he might take in the contribution I made—namely, that he has argued that the words “where appropriate” in subsection (2) already achieve the objective that I sought to achieve with my amendment. In other words, that if it is considered that there is a conflict between subsections (1) and (2), then—as I understand it from what the Minister has said—the Civil Aviation Authority, using the words “where appropriate”, would be able to argue that subsection (1) took priority, because that is the primary responsibility. If I have understood the Minister correctly—and what he said as to how this should be interpreted is now on the record—then I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 2 withdrawn.

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Moved by

[Lord Rosser]

8: Clause 1, page 2, line 19, leave out paragraph (b)

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, this is an opportunity to debate a rather more mundane amendment compared with the ones we have just been discussing. This amendment and Amendment 14 in the group delete the references in Clause 1(4)(b) and Clause 2(5)(b) to the principle in the general duties of the Civil Aviation Authority and the Secretary of State respectively that,

“regulatory activities should be targeted only at cases in which action is needed”.

Clause 1(4)(a) and Clause 2(5)(a) both state that,

“regulatory activities should be carried out in a way which is transparent, accountable, proportionate and consistent”.

It is not entirely clear why either Clause 1(4)(b) or Clause 2(5)(b) is needed. Under subsections (4)(a) and (5)(a), regulatory activities should be carried out in a way that is proportionate, but surely it would not be proportionate if those regulatory activities were targeted at cases in which action was not needed. To do so would surely not be proportionate and would therefore be outside the terms of subsections (4)(a) and (5)(a). If the Minister is not inclined to accept my point that the subsection that this amendment deletes is unnecessary, it would be helpful if he could indicate why and also give some examples of regulatory activities that would be proportionate even though they were being targeted at cases where action was not needed. I beg to move.

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[Earl Attlee]

Yes. However, we are talking about the principle of regulation that you do not do things that are unnecessary: you target your effort at a problem. If there is not a problem, you leave it alone.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, asked whether the subsections could leave the CAA open to JR. These are secondary, subordinate obligations to which the CAA must have regard. Provided the CAA turns its mind to these matters and considers them, it will, prima facie, have complied with the obligation.

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply and other noble Lords who have taken part in this brief debate.

The Minister said that he will look at Hansard to see what point I was making. To reiterate, the question I am raising is: what is the necessity for the two paragraphs that my amendment seeks to delete? Paragraph (b) states that,

“regulatory activities should be targeted only at cases in which action is needed”.

That comes after paragraph (a), which states that,

“regulatory activities should be carried out in a way which is transparent, accountable, proportionate and consistent”.

I appreciate that the Minister has said that he will look at the question and respond but, to reiterate the question that I asked, how can something be proportionate if it is a regulatory activity targeted at a case in which action is not needed? Surely, by definition, if regulatory action is not needed and you take regulatory action, that cannot be proportionate.

I am happy to leave it in the context that the Minister will look at the point I have raised and respond to me. I would be grateful for that. I am asking a genuine question. We are all interested in making sure that there is no unnecessary verbiage in legislation, which is the point I am making about the two paragraphs that the amendment proposes should be deleted. However, in the context that the Minister will look at the issue and write to me, I am happy to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 8 withdrawn.