Brexit: Negotiations

Lord Rooker Excerpts

Thursday 3rd October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The principle behind the consent is that we believe any alignment with EU law in Northern Ireland must depend on the consent of those affected by it, which is why we believe this is an important element. As I said in my response to the opening questions, obviously the exact mechanisms will need to involve a discussion between us, Ireland and representatives of the communities in Northern Ireland. We are absolutely clear—I hope this was made clear in my responses to an earlier question—that this must be done to the satisfaction of both communities in Northern Ireland. The details of this are something we will need to talk about with our Irish colleagues and across the Province of Northern Ireland over the coming days.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

My Lords, listening to the exchanges in the other place, I was struck that the really important question from Lady Hermon was not actually answered. I put to the noble Baroness this question, which in effect follows on from the one she was just asked but has not answered: can she explain the difference between a coalition Executive and a power-sharing Executive, in the context of Northern Ireland, with respect to this Statement?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am afraid the noble Lord will not be happy, but I cannot say more than I have said. Some of the details of the exact mechanisms will be open to discussion. I will not pre-empt negotiations or discussions and do not think it would help the process if I did. I am sorry I cannot say any more to the noble Lord.

Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013 Committee

Lord Rooker Excerpts

Thursday 6th June 2019 Lords Chamber

That it is desirable that a Select Committee be appointed to consider the links between inequality, public health and food sustainability, and that the Committee do report by 31 March 2020.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

Can I ask a question about this? I am constantly reading rumours from the other place that various candidates to be Prime Minister intend to prorogue Parliament to get Brexit through. If that is allowed to happen, is there any flexibility in changing the dates for these four Select Committees to report, or to allow them to sit during Prorogation?

Business of the House

Lord Rooker Excerpts

Thursday 4th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am surprised that the noble Countess did not intervene, given the length of that intervention from the noble Lord. He will recall that the Bill that he referred to was agreed by the usual channels, which is the normal way in which we proceed. I realise that because I was in the House of Commons I may have got used to its procedures, but I have been used to Bills being presented with the name of the sponsor. There is no sponsor on this Bill. The noble Baroness said that it was being presented for its First Reading, but the Bill appears to be an orphan. Who is the sponsor for this Bill?

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

I am.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

That is very alarming, because I thought that the noble Lord was a very good House of Commons man. When the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said that in the House of Commons there was no functioning Executive, that is because, according to Sir Oliver Letwin and some of his friends in the other place, they are now the Executive. His remarks in the Commons were extraordinary. He said that,

“when this House comes to legislate, as I hope it will and fear it must, it will be, so to speak, a Cabinet. We will be making real-life decisions about what happens to our fellow countrymen—not just legislating in the hope that many years later, subject to further jots and tittles, the law, as administered by the system of justice, will work better. We will be making a decision about the future of this country. How can we possibly make those decisions unless we are properly informed? The process of which we are now at the start will require the fundamental realignment of the relationship between the civil service, Government and Parliament. There is no way we can continue to act as though we were merely a body to which the Government were accountable; for a period, for this purpose, we will have to take on the government of our country”.—[Official Report, Commons, 14/2/19; col. 1110.]

This is what is being said at the other end of this building.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Rooker Excerpts

Tuesday 30th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Lords stop Brexit? No. Can we ask the Commons to think again and stop Brexit? Yes. First, we have to recognise the causes of Brexit. I have been back through the cuttings for the period before the referendum. Will Hutton in the Observer had it in a nutshell the week before. He listed loads of benefits of EU membership, but he went on to list a set of issues that the less well off and the left behind suffered from that left them wanting to leave the EU: lives are tough; bad jobs on poor wages; lousy housing; worsening public services. The list went on, while, he then said, the rich feather their nest. Most of the issues that are the causes of Brexit are not the EU’s fault. Many of the issues that are the causes of Brexit can be placed at the door of the 2010-15 coalition Government. But so what? It was a chance, for once, for the left behind to hit back.

Andrew Rawnsley pointed out before 23 June that,

“the telling of bare-faced lies has been rarer”,

in British politics if only for “fear among its protagonists” about their reputation when found out. He pointed out that the referendum had,

“introduced a novelty to British politics: the persistence with a lie even when it is verifiably a lie”.

The £350 million on the side of the bus and the 77 million people from Turkey, which was just about to join the EU, were indeed whoppers from public liars. That is the fact. We should recognise the causes of Brexit. Do not tell the people that they got it wrong on 23 June. They did not like the status quo and neither do I. The issue should be fixed where it started—in Parliament. It began with a Prime Minister betting his nation for party peace. He lost. The Lords must put country before party.

The nation is split in a way that I have not known in 44 years at Westminster. Mrs May has not shown the slightest concern about the 48% voting remain, nor the 63% who did not vote leave. I was committed to voting remain, compared with my no vote in 1975. I do not want the country damaged to prove my points, but I fear it will be several more months before the penny drops on the overall damage to the future in terms of jobs, the economy and a bleak future for generations to come.

The danger that Northern Ireland has been placed in is clear. There are international treaties relating to all-Ireland issues, such as food safety, animal disease, electricity supply and integrated dairy production, that Brexit cannot take account of. The island of Ireland has 15% of the world’s infant milk formula market—a world player that will be saddled with a hard border.

Evidence to select committees has shown that in subject after subject the outcome of Brexit will be negative. The UK is still a member of the EU, but a recent witness with first-hand experience stated to the committee that I serve on that the UK is already considered no longer “a key political actor” but a mere “technical consultant”—that was in our energy security report—yet we led on the creation of the single market in goods and then the internal energy market. The UK has never operated the opportunities to restrict the absolute free movement of labour, as provided for under EU rules, because the CBI and the fat cats desired total free movement to ensure low labour costs.

However, it is never too late to avoid making a bad decision. The bad decision is not that of 23 June but the actual departure. The people should be allowed to make an informed choice to leave or not. That was not on offer at the referendum. The electorate in 2019 will be different from that in 2016. The role of the Lords as the unelected revising and scrutiny Chamber is sometimes to ask the Commons to think again. I did not serve for 27 years in the Commons to undermine it from the Lords. The Commons will always have the last word. However, the facts on Brexit are better known now. There are fewer unknowns and more knowns.

The powers of the Lords are extensive but not used as we are unelected. We all know what the conventions are and we must abide by them in spirit and word. Any attempt to deviate from the conventions will force me to vote with the Government for the Bill. I will not mess about with abstaining. I will defend the conventions because I am concerned about what might be done in two or three years’ time.

I want the Bill to go back to the Commons amended in a variety of areas, not least giving the people the choice to leave or remain based on the evidence of facts, not lies from a soapbox. The key is that the Bill is amended in the interests of the whole nation, not a political tribe. The leadership of my tribe does not have clean hands on this issue because it has been a case of tribe before country. The big political tribes are not as they were before 23 June 2016. Within each there is a flock that has more in common with each other than the tribe that they are a part of. I recently sat in this Chamber listening to one of the most powerful and thoughtful speeches that I have ever heard on industrial policy, thinking to myself the deadly thought that if the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, were the leader of a tribe, I could join it. He is not, so I remain where I am—for the moment.

Role of the Lord Speaker

Lord Rooker Excerpts

Thursday 30th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

My Lords, I agree with one point made by the noble Earl: that the issue of creep would stop Back-Benchers. But that is not what my noble friend Lord Grocott was talking about. I want to support exactly what he said—no more, no less. I do not want this House to replicate the other place anyway. It is a very modest change. For two years, between July 2005 and July 2007, while the noble Baroness, Lady Amos, was the Leader of the House, I was delegated as Deputy Leader and, as such, on occasion I had to help the House out. Because I am a squirrel, I have here two years’ worth of Order Papers, where I meticulously kept a record of every Question. I was not waiting until trouble arose. I looked at every Question as it went through the House, so that I knew there was fairness in there. Because I am a squirrel, I put them all in a box and they are all there so that I have a record. We were meticulous in making sure that all sides got into the debate. One has to consider that some of our Members are a bit slower in getting up than others. I will not mention any names because that is not fair, but occasionally I was tipped off in advance that such a Peer would like to speak and therefore I could commend the House to listen to the Peer.

It is not easy to perform the role. When I sat there, I had the Labour Peers behind me and, if I remember rightly, the Cross-Benchers were to the immediate right; the configuration has changed slightly. You need your head on a swivel wire because you cannot hear who is shouting, and that is part of the problem.

It is not right that a Minister should be the person to choose the Member to question a Minister. There is a point of principle there. In fact, in performing the role, I was a bit rigid in being scrupulously fair on occasion. I recall one day when I cut off the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, just about to go into full flight. I can tell noble Lords that later that day I was on my knees at the side of her desk, begging forgiveness. When the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, became Leader, I was instructed to cease the role.

While I was in the role, I once checked on speakers at Question Time—I would like to think that the noble Baroness the Leader of the House has already done this—and discovered that 50% of the supplementary questions were asked by 10% of the Members. This is because it is a bear pit with verbal bullies—pure bullies. They are on all sides of the House and of all genders. This is grossly unfair to the vast majority of the House. Some noble Lords have never asked a supplementary. They are here because they are world-class experts on a subject, but they cannot bring themselves to get involved in the bear pit. If the Lord Speaker had the role, all the noble Baroness would have to do is stand—not shout to try to be heard over everybody else—and hope to be called by the Lord Speaker. At least it would be a fairer system.

We should hear from the Members themselves who do not participate at Question Time. There is a job to be done there—to ask them why they do not. They are here in their hundreds but they never participate at Question Time. Bearing in mind that at the moment a sub-committee is looking at cutting down the size of this House, I would hate for it to come up with the idea, “This person never speaks at Question Time. Get them out”. The reason for that is the bullying tactics of the system. I am not accusing anybody and I have no criticism of anybody—the Leader, the Deputy Leader, the Chief Whip or anybody. The fact is that it is the system that is wrong. I found it really difficult when I became a Back-Bencher in 2008, because I had arrived here in 2001 as a Minister. I thought, “What the hell am I going to do? How do I get in at Question Time?”. I found it incredibly difficult to start to participate, and I am quite restrained these days because there is a serious problem.

It is a very modest technical challenge that does not alter anything for anybody but would give an impression of this House to the public that we are a bit more professional and look as though we know what we are doing. At present, at Question Time—I watch it on television occasionally—it looks as though we do not know what we are doing. That diminishes the House and we cannot defend it outside.

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Rooker Excerpts

Monday 20th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister, who I believe is the best person to lead the Government, has been dealt a very bad hand by her predecessor. He gambled for his party, he staked the country and he lost. The Prime Minister is clearly operating on the basis that the bully Brexiteers are never going to be able to claim that she was a soft and secret remoaner. Therefore, I reckon that when it dawns on her that the route is not a good one for the country, she will be in an impregnable position to take some hard decisions and face the bullies down. We will then see what mettle she is made of. We are not there yet, but in the meantime she has no more right than I to claim that the ballot was anything other than to leave the EU. The voters put a cross on a ballot paper. It was a decision, not a reason.

The White Paper does not fill me with much confidence, either. Paragraph 8.12 states:

“In many cases EU rules are based on global requirements”.


So why are we leaving, as these will not change? Paragraph 9.3 states that,

“the UK’s fastest growing … markets between 2005 and 2014 included South Korea … China … Brazil … and Mexico”.

The EU did not stop us and hold us back, so why are we leaving?

We have to take Brexit far more seriously than we have done the EU in recent years. Therein lies part of the problem. I do not think that there has ever been a genuine attempt by the UK over the years to lead, or play a central role in, the EU. The EU Commission has not been up to the task of leadership, either. It has been rare for member states to send premier league politicians to be commissioners. In the UK in recent times we have descended to sending to the commission politicians without any elected experience, such was the value we gave the EU project. We reap as we sow.

As a former Minister, my personal experience of Michel Barnier is limited, but it is such that I reckon he will run rings round the Cabinet Brexiteers. To my knowledge, the Prime Minister has not yet assembled a UK team comprising the best experienced negotiators on trade and international relations. If she relies on members of the Cabinet, we are sunk. While I am on the Cabinet, I will take no lessons in patriotism from members of the Government who were branded public liars for the fake arguments and false facts that they used last year. That is all on the record.

Central to successful negotiations in peacetime is that those who go to the table should come away with something—not all—that they want. The difference in these Brexit negotiations is that it is in the direct and specific interests of EU member states, the EU Commission and the EU Parliament that any success for the UK is tantamount to encouraging other member states to try something on. Therefore, why should the EU allow any outcome for the UK to be better than the status quo? As such, it is definitely an asymmetrical negotiation. From my experience of Lords EU Sub-Committee B, which to date has done three short inquiries on Brexit, the idea that no deal and leaving on WTO terms is better than a bad deal is an absolute non-starter. In fact, it is far more honest to say that a bad deal is far better than no deal on what the evidence we have to date.

Of course, we have the Bill—I must mention the Bill. We need to trigger Article 50. It is now the only means of finding out the real costs of leaving the EU to put before the British people. Nothing will happen until we have agreed the finances of leaving the EU and, contrary to what has been said, we will not get down to it until after the German elections. The EU Parliament and member states have already said that they want six months at least for ratification. It means that we have a 12-month gap from this October to next October to agree the deal. I do not think that it can be done.

Am I satisfied that Whitehall is working on contingency arrangements in the same way it worked on a possible Brexit? No, I am not. I shall certainly be supporting some of the amendments next week in order to carry out the function of this House, which is occasionally to ask the Commons to think again before it has the final word. My four final words are: I agree with Tony.

House of Lords: Size

Lord Rooker Excerpts

Monday 5th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

My Lords, I too thank the Leader of the House and the Chief Whip for allowing this debate in government prime time, and the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for kicking it off. I have heard all the speeches and the one I really want to applaud is that of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean—if only because he touched on a theme which I want to mention, which has so far not been used to much effect. I accept that the Lords is far too big; so, I have to say, is the Commons, notwithstanding the fact that its membership is to be reduced. However, we need to be clear on our functions and powers.

I always start the Peers in Schools sessions, as I will on Friday in south Bromsgrove, by saying that the Lords is in effect a very large sub-committee of the Commons. We are not equal Houses of Parliament because the Commons can force legislation upon the Lords, but the Lords cannot force legislation upon the Commons. We are the thinking Chamber that thinks for itself and, from time to time, we request the Commons to think again on some issues. The Government’s defeats here are only a request to the Commons to think again. They have the final say; we simply ask them to have another look. We of course need to check on the material sent to us from the Commons because they do not check much of it themselves. I agree that the Lords should be about two-thirds the size of the Commons. This should not be rigid but it should be less than the Commons. By the way, I would not start legislation in the Lords and that way, all Bills would be subject to the Parliament Acts.

I come to what the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, said and I will make a couple of small points. The Peers in Schools programme needs extending to peers in Whitehall and peers in the Commons. We need to confront the ignorance about our function and powers. From my experience in Whitehall—two departments while in the Commons and four in your Lordships’ House—civil servants are fearful of the Lords. They do not understand the Lords because they are ignorant about it, which causes problems within the departments. Not enough civil servants, even the senior ones, have worked in Lords Ministers’ private offices. There is massive ignorance in those departments about the Lords so they become fearful of us, which need not be the case.

I fully accept that I was ignorant before about this place. When I was in the other place as a Minister, I paid not the slightest attention to my noble friends Lord Donoughue and Lady Hollis when they said at departmental meetings. “I’ve got a Starred Question” or “I have to stay all night”. I never paid any attention to what they said but I soon found out when I came here what they were on about. However, I will never forget the day when I, as a humble Minister of State, went with my noble friend Lord Grocott, who was the government Chief Whip, to attend the senior Cabinet committee in charge of legislation. We were merely explaining the rules and processes here in the Lords but the chair wagged their finger at us and said that we had gone native, based purely on ignorance about what we were trying to explain. So far, that person has not arrived in your Lordships’ House.

Ministers also need the odd information session. This is especially the case—I say this of one in retrospect and the other with experience—for senior Ministers who have never operated at junior level. That was the case in 1997, when I did not pick it up, but in 2010 I certainly did. We are not a threat, but there was something missing in the corporate memory of those Ministers and those teams at that point in time when they had never operated in respect of the Lords. We are here to help.

We are also here to stop an Executive takeover of Parliament—not enough is made of that. I can tell you this: every move that is made across the road is bit by bit seeking to get Executive control of Parliament, and we should stop that. We should insist on the rule of parliamentary law. Sometimes we have to stiffen the backbone of MPs. The example that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, gave was about tax credits. That was a classic example. It should have been a Bill. We all know that if it had been a Bill the Commons and the Government could have had their way because they get the last word, and they were getting around the parliamentary rules. We can carry out our function and exercise our powers a lot better with fewer Peers, and we should get on with it.

Strathclyde Review

Lord Rooker Excerpts

Thursday 17th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank my noble friend and her committee for the work that they have done on this review and more generally. I assure her that I am working very hard with the leader of the House of Commons to have a rigorous approach with our Cabinet colleagues when they bring forward legislation to us.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Government on the decision. I have one simple request, as this seems to me a golden opportunity. Can the Government say what they are going to do, using this as a lever, to explain to journalists and commentators the role of this House? It is the supreme ignorance among journalists and commentators—which I agree exists also among the other House, and which I shared before I came here—about our role that led to the kind of ignorant interview that the public heard on Radio 4 this morning. Can we use this as an opportunity to explain to the media, as many of us do with the Peers in Schools programme, the exact role of this House? This seems a golden opportunity for the Government, on an all-party basis, to do something about that.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments, and I entirely agree that we have a lot of work to do to improve the public’s understanding of the excellent and important work of this House. I am very keen to try to play my part in that, but we need Members across the House to do it. I know that the Lord Speaker is also very keen to make sure that we do what we can to help the public understand the important role that we play.

Gambling

Lord Rooker Excerpts

Thursday 20th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Any rise in crime figures is of course concerning, and Ministers and the Gambling Commission will look at those figures closely. One of the three licensing objectives that all operators must comply with is to prevent gambling being a source of crime. On the right reverend Prelate’s specific question about the link between fixed-odds betting terminals and the rise in crime, I hesitate at the moment to draw a causal link between them in the absence of evidence on the specific means of betting. However, this is exactly the sort of evidence that should be provided to the forthcoming triennial review.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

We should resist the pressures from the gambling lobby, because this is an incredibly serious issue. However, I want to deviate from the Question slightly to ask the Minister: what counselling help is available for someone who gambles a country for a political party and loses?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The Gambling Commission will take a close interest in things like that, I am sure.

Adult Education: Part-time Attendance

Lord Rooker Excerpts

Wednesday 9th March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am happy to say that we have expanded the number of courses where you can get second degree student support so that now people wanting to take subjects allied to medicine, biological and veterinary sciences, agriculture and related sciences, and physical and mathematical sciences can access that support.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

With respect to further education —I declare an interest as someone who did three nights a week on day release at one point—would it not be a good idea that, instead of stuffing this place with chancellors of universities of higher education, we put some people with direct knowledge of further education in here?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am afraid to tell the noble Lord that basically, there is nothing that I can do about it but I have sympathy.