Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Lord Rogan Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 11th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

My Lords, this is the first opportunity that I have had to address your Lordships’ House since the untimely death of my friend Lord Trimble. The noble Lord, Lord Godson, spoke at length, and rightly so, about the enormous contribution that David Trimble made to the community and to political life in his native Northern Ireland, not least in his critical role in implementing the Good Friday agreement.

I was Ulster Unionist Party chairman in the period up to and beyond the signing of the Belfast agreement. I witnessed at first hand the pivotal role that David played, not only in finalising that deal but in keeping the peace process on track at moments of great crisis. This included the aftermath of the Omagh bomb, on 15 August 1998, which claimed the lives of 29 innocent people and two unborn twins. Four days later, I accompanied David to the funeral mass, in Buncrana, County Donegal, for eight year-old Oran Doherty, and James Barker and Sean McLaughlin, both aged 12. There was some media furore at the time on the basis that David and I were members of the Orange Order, but we wanted to stand united with the wonderful people of Donegal in their time of unspeakable grief. I am sure that I speak for the whole House when I say that all of us stand with the people of Donegal today as they come together in tragic circumstances for the funerals of Jessica Gallagher and Martin McGill, in Creeslough. David Trimble was a great man, a family man, a wise man, a brave man and a fine parliamentarian. His death is a huge loss to Northern Ireland and, of course, to this House.

I turn to the Bill before us today. It will not surprise your Lordships to know that I continue to thoroughly resent the existence of the Northern Ireland protocol. His Majesty’s Government have spent almost three years blaming the European Union for its sheer awfulness. However, what Ministers frequently neglect to mention is that the protocol was agreed by Boris Johnson with the full support of his then Foreign Secretary, Liz Truss. Northern Ireland was sacrificed for political expediency by a Prime Minister in a hurry, with the backing of his eventual successor. The Bill before your Lordships today is merely a diversionary tactic—a sticking plaster to pretend that it was the other side’s fault. Not only that but Ministers have openly acknowledged, initially from the lips of the now Justice Secretary, Brandon Lewis, that the legislation itself contravenes international law.

I have spent my life celebrating and defending Northern Ireland’s position as an integral part of the United Kingdom. The Good Friday agreement was a huge moment for us, as it should have been for everyone who cherishes Northern Ireland’s place in the heart of the union. The Belfast agreement states very clearly that

“it would be wrong to make any change in the status of Northern Ireland, save with the consent of the majority of its people”.

It was on that basis that the Ulster Unionist Party campaigned vigorously and successfully for a yes vote in the subsequent referendum. This situation should never have been changed without their consent, but Boris Johnson, supported by senior Ministers, including Liz Truss, thought otherwise. In an essay first published by the Belfast News Letter in 2021 and reproduced following his untimely death in July, David Trimble wrote:

“I feel betrayed personally by the Northern Ireland Protocol, and it is also why the unionist population is so incensed at its imposition. The protocol rips the very heart out of the agreement, which I and they believed safeguarded Northern Ireland as part of the United Kingdom and ensured that democracy not violence, threat of violence or outside interference, would or could ever change that.”

We are where we are. My noble friend Lord Empey, who is unfortunately unable to be in his place today because of family commitments back in Belfast, has previously outlined some of the common-sense solutions that the Ulster Unionist Party has put forward to try to ease the burden faced by businesses and consumers in Northern Ireland because of this protocol. We want to be constructive, and we genuinely wish the UK and EU negotiating teams every success following the resumption of talks last week. But the people of Northern Ireland should never have been placed in this invidious position. No one voted for an Irish sea border.

Bribery Act 2010: Post-legislative Scrutiny (Select Committee Report)

Lord Rogan Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd February 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Rogan (UUP) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome the Select Committee’s report and commend its members for their sterling work in producing it, especially and including my noble friend Lord Empey.

One of the great privileges of serving in your Lordships’ House is the sheer volume of knowledge and expertise that we possess as a collective body. We are also not known for giving compliments lightly, particularly when it comes to our primary role of scrutinising legislation from the Government of the day. It is therefore noteworthy that the Select Committee report describes the Bribery Act 2010 as

“an excellent piece of legislation which creates offences which are clear and all-embracing”.

To be fair, Ministers did have quite a bit of time to give proper consideration to its provisions, since the Bribery Act received Royal Assent 121 years after the first attempt to put the common law offence of bribery on to a statutory footing. However, coming eight years after the Act became law, the Select Committee report makes it clear that the wait was worth it and that the legislation can now rightly claim to stand as an example to the rest of the world on how to combat bribery.

Of course, there is always room for improvement in an ever-changing world. The report offers some helpful suggestions on how the Act’s measures might be made even more effective. I echo the comments and suggestions made by the noble Lords, Lord German and Lord Empey, regarding SMEs.

Over some 40 years as an owner and director of several Ulster SMEs, I have been fortunate to experience many different countries and diverse cultures in my commercial working life. I welcome in particular the Select Committee’s recommendation that Her Majesty’s Government provide UK companies with support on corruption issues in countries to which they either currently or expect to export, and on the business norms and culture in countries where they currently operate. The report adds that such support should be provided by properly trained officials and that smaller embassies should have at least one official who is an expert in local customs or cultures who can contact officials of foreign government departments on behalf of companies facing problems in this field. In its formal response to the Select Committee’s report in May 2019, the Ministry of Justice, to its credit, endorsed these helpful suggestions.

The ministry’s response also stated:

“The DFID-funded Business Integrity Initiative … is currently undertaking pilot work in Kenya, Mexico and Pakistan”—


countries in which I have done business—

“… to identify appropriate ways to support UK companies operating in these markets and … provide new guidance and tools for staff in post.”

It further stated that

“as evidence from the … pilot emerges, DIT will consider how to include business integrity work in its future activity”.

I would be grateful if the Minister could update the Committee on the progress of this pilot. What lessons have been learned and what measures have since been introduced as a result of the knowledge gained?

Those of us who supported Brexit were promised that it would allow the UK business community to access new markets in all parts of the world that were previously either fully out of reach or difficult to get into. I hope that those commitments still ring true. If Brexit is to be the success that we all hope it will be, no matter which stance noble Lords took in relation to the referendum, it is critical that UK businesses are given proper, professional advice and guidance about those markets with which they may not be sufficiently familiar. The Select Committee in its excellent report has clearly identified this need. Once again, I commend it for its work.

Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill

Lord Rogan Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 10th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Rogan) (UUP)]

We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 57. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this or anything else in this group to a Division should make that clear in the debate. I should inform the House that, if Amendment 57 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment 58.

Amendment 57

Moved by

--- Later in debate ---

Clause 1 agreed.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Rogan) (UUP)]

We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 63. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this or anything else in this group to a Division should make that clear in the debate. I should inform the Committee that if Amendment 63 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments 64 to 69.

Clause 2: Authorities to be capable of authorising criminal conduct

Amendment 63

Moved by

--- Later in debate ---

Amendment 75B not moved.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Rogan) (UUP)]

We now come to the group consisting of Amendment 75C. I remind noble Lords that anybody wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this amendment to a Division should make that clear in the debate.

Amendment 75C

Moved by

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con) [V]]

My Lords, with this last group, the horse is heading for the stable. If I talk for too long, I shall probably be talking to myself alone. I shall therefore cut to the chase but would, before my remarks on the amendment, add my thanks to the ministerial team for its tolerance and patience. I am also grateful to it for the email I received today inviting me to engage in further detail about how the Bill will operate.

The amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, who has just spoken, imposed duties on the Investigatory Powers Commissioner when he becomes aware of unlawful or improper conduct. My amendment imposes different requirements on him—in this case, what he must include in his published reports, particularly the annual report. The amendment touches on some of the issues that underlie Amendment 79, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, but comes at them rather differently.

During earlier stages of Committee, many amendments were discussed that sought to rebalance the powers proposed in the Bill to ensure that the IPC is notified of any CCAs, that victims could bring complaints to the Investigatory Powers Tribunal, and that prosecutors are left with discretion to bring cases when it is in the public interest to do so. Despite those debates, there are a couple of gaps in what we have discussed so far.

First, our discussions to date place the onus on the victim to alert the regulatory bodies of any mistakes or wrongdoing. Even within the UK, some victims may not be aware of the avenues open to them for redress. However, when the misconduct takes place overseas—an issue I raised in earlier debates—the chances of a victim being able to bring a case must surely be vanishingly small and unlikely. Apart from anything else, the victim would have no way of knowing that the conduct complained about was authorised under this CHIS Bill. Further, they would not know that they needed to bring their case to one of the CHIS-authorising bodies in the UK and that the victim’s own regulatory system would have no role to play. Secondly, in our discussions so far, there has been little emphasis on the value of post-authorisation evaluation of the impact and effectiveness of the CHIS CCA system.

My amendment therefore imposes a duty on the IPC to include in his or her report an impact assessment on, first, the number of CCAs requested and granted; secondly, the operational benefits that have resulted; and, thirdly and finally, an assessment of the damage or harm, particularly to individuals, that occurred as a result of those CCAs that were granted.

Noble Lords’ email boxes will testify that this Bill is an area of considerable public interest and concern, and perhaps I may give the House a brief personal example. About 10 or so years ago, I had an extremely efficient and competent PA who worked with me at my office in the City. She was the daughter of an Iranian diplomat, and her whole family had been forced to flee that country when the Shah was dethroned. Happily for her, she met a man she fell in love with, got married and had a family. I, sadly, lost a very good PA, but that is not really the point. We have kept in occasional touch, and the CHIS Bill has touched a very raw nerve. She explained to me in some detail that it is very similar to legislation introduced in Iran, with the best of intentions, that was gradually corrupted and perverted. I am not—repeat, not—suggesting that we face an Iran-like situation, but I argue that, to reassure my ex-PA and others like her that the original purposes of the legislation still hold good and that it is proving effective, a degree of public transparency and sunshine would be very helpful.

My noble friend may argue that the Intelligence and Security Committee will provide the necessary reassurance. Well, yes and no. I do not for a moment doubt that the ISC is made up of a fine body of Members of your Lordships’ House and the other place and that they will do their very best, but even they can be warned off and frustrated in their inquiries. For example, in its inquiry into the Belhaj and al-Saadi families—who, your Lordships will recall, were rendered by MI6 agents to the Gaddafi regime—the ISC was refused access to key witnesses, so its investigation was largely stymied.

To conclude, in one of our debates on Tuesday, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, said that transparency influences conduct, and I agree. Amendment 75C proposes that the Investigatory Powers Commissioner should be required to provide a measured level of public reassurance available to a wider audience than just the ISC in the reports produced, and I beg to move.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Rogan) (UUP)]

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, not for the first time in consideration of this Bill in Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Ashley Abbots, comes to your Lordships’ House with an excellent amendment, a very good idea and an even better speech, which I cannot improve on. Transparency does influence conduct, and the information that he suggests ought to be included in reports speaks to common sense. We ought to know on a regular basis the number and nature of criminal conduct authorisations issued under the new legislation, the operational benefits that have been obtained from those authorisations and, crucially, the kind of damage to property and people—the incidental harm—that has come about as a result of those criminal conduct authorisations.

I do not want to labour the point—it has been a long Committee—but I want to have one final attempt at putting a question to the Minister to which I do not think I have yet heard the answer. This is my last opportunity to put this in Committee before we go forward to Report.

Why is it necessary to go further than the status quo in the scheme for this legislation? Why cannot undercover operatives, whether they are highly trained police or MI5 officers, or whether they are—and perhaps they are in greater number—members of the civilian community, including the criminal community, just be subject to the current law, which is that when they are authorised to do this work, including with criminal conduct, they will know that their conduct will be second-guessed after the fact? They currently have the ultimate incentive —and we have the ultimate safeguard—to behave proportionately and as well as possible, which is that they might, just possibly, if they over-step the mark, be subject to legal sanction after the event. That is the law that applies to uniformed police officers and people driving police cars and ambulances at high speed, with a very strong public interest defence. It is probably a presumption against prosecution, but it is that tiny risk of being judged after the fact that makes most people behave well according to the criminal law. Why should that be replaced with a total, advance and blanket immunity from prosecution and civil liability? Why quite go so far and therefore cause some of the greatest concerns that have been excited by this legislation?

I hope that the Minister will not mind me putting that fundamental, simple question one more time. I look forward to her answer, and indeed to our further work at the next stage of the Bill’s passage.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Rogan Excerpts

Wednesday 8th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

My Lords—

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

My Lords—

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

I am so sorry.

[Lord Rogan]

It is quite all right. My Lords, I have spoken in your Lordships’ House about the urgent need to restore devolved government in Northern Ireland. I will not restate those arguments but the latest reports I have received from the talks in Belfast suggest that we are no closer to finding a resolution today than we were yesterday. Again, I will urge all the parties in Northern Ireland, particularly the DUP and Sinn Féin/IRA, to do all they can to reach agreement in advance of Monday’s deadline.

I will concentrate my remarks on what the gracious Speech described as the “utmost importance” of the,

“integrity and prosperity of the United Kingdom,”—[Official Report, 19/12/19; col. 7.]

or, to give our great nation its full title, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

It is a simple fact that the union is under greater threat now than at any time during the IRA’s 30-year campaign of violence. Your Lordships will need no reminding that the Troubles were an indescribably barbarous period in our history. More than 3,600 people lost their lives, with countless more suffering horrendous injuries. People often ask what purpose was served by such death and destruction. From a Sinn Féin/IRA perspective, my answer would be that no purpose was served whatever. The Belfast agreement, which I was proud to be part of, enshrined the principle of consent that keeps Northern Ireland an integral part of the United Kingdom unless its people decide otherwise in a democratic vote. Meanwhile the purpose of the pro-union people in enduring the IRA’s hideous terrorist campaign, rather than giving in, was to protect that precious consent principle.

I have always regarded my unionism as something positive. The unionist community is often portrayed as possessing a siege mentality but this is a false impression. In general, unionists are forward-thinking and, in a post-Troubles society, there have been significant efforts to reach out and sell the benefits and attractions of unionism to those of alternative political outlooks and none. For example, the 12 July parades now have a genuine festival feel about them, and quite rightly so. However, where unionists can perhaps be accused of becoming more insular is when they feel that the British Government of the day would rather see the back of Northern Ireland. The most obvious recent example of this was in 1985 when Margaret Thatcher co-signed the Anglo-Irish agreement, giving the Dublin Government a say in the internal affairs of one part of the United Kingdom against its will. In 1998, the then Baroness Thatcher said that she regretted signing this agreement. Thankfully, a Labour Prime Minister helped to put something much better in its place on Good Friday of that same year.

Fast-forwarding to today and the actions of the latest Conservative Prime Minister to roll off the conveyer belt, Boris Johnson’s decision to renege on his public commitment not to annex Northern Ireland by placing a border in the Irish Sea after Brexit has had a profound impact on the psyche of the loyal pro-union people. Mr Johnson, I am afraid, has a long and complicated relationship with the truth across many aspects of life, but saying something and doing precisely the opposite has much deeper consequences when you hold the office of Prime Minister. Despite his supposed commitment to the constitutional integrity of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland’s place within it, as laid out in the gracious Speech, a significant proportion of unionists simply refuse to believe him and are deeply worried about what comes next.

There is also another group. As the recent Westminster elections highlighted, there is a growing number of people in Northern Ireland who do not see themselves as either unionist or nationalist. Thankfully, a succession of surveys makes it clear that a healthy majority would still vote in favour of Northern Ireland staying within the United Kingdom should a border poll be called. However, this position will be hard to maintain if the Prime Minister continues to behave like someone who, at best, does not seem particularly keen to fight to save the union or, at worst, is relaxed about retreating into a mindset of English nationalism.