Wales Bill
Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts(9 years, 6 months ago)
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“Part 1AVoter registrationPower of Secretary of State to make regulations for data sharing
(1) The Secretary of State shall by regulations impose a duty on government bodies requiring those bodies to provide specified information to registration officers in Wales for the purposes of electoral registration.
(2) Regulations under subsection (1) must include as government bodies the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency, the Department for Work and Pensions, HM Passport Office and the National Health Service.
(3) Regulations made under subsection (1) shall include the provision of data collected by specified government bodies by virtue of specified applications, which must include applications for new or renewed driving licences, Disability Living Allowance, Jobseeker’s Allowance, Employment and Support Allowance, new or renewed passports, and to register with a GP (as applicable to the specified government body).
(4) Registration officers shall use the specified information received in relation to a person—
(a) if the specified information received contains all of the information required, to register that person on the appropriate electoral register or registers; or(b) if the specified information does not contain all of the information required, to make further enquiries of that person to receive the information required to register that person on the appropriate electoral register or registers.(5) For the avoidance of doubt, nothing in this section shall give any government body the power to share any information about a person without that person’s consent.
(6) In this section—
“electoral register or registers” means the registers in section 9 of the Representation of the People Act 1983;
“specified applications” means any applications made by a person potentially eligible to be registered to vote as are specified in regulations made under subsection (1); and
“specified government bodies” means any government bodies specified in regulations made under subsection (1).”
Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)
My Lords, we very much appreciate the work of all those who have been involved in the Welsh Assembly in different ways. It has been a struggle sometimes, I am sure. Some have their reward when they reach this place and we appreciate what they have done in the other place as well.
I spoke at some length on these amendments in Committee, so I am not going to go over most of those arguments, but I would like to say now that people, especially young people, feel completely alienated from Parliament and from every authority that we exert here. They say: “They do not belong to us”; “They are a different crowd”; the “Westminster bubble” or “those people in Cardiff”. Somehow, we must build that bridge between, especially, young people and the political life of our country. This is the most important thing: to involve our young people especially and to involve them as early as we can in active engagement with the lives of their communities and their country.
How can that be done? Of course, it depends a lot on schools and colleges. This is where we need inspirational teachers able to bring great determination and a feeling of “We, too, want to be involved” to the young people they teach. First, we need that involvement of schools and colleges in preparing our young people for political life and a full life in their communities. Why do we bring up this amendment? At present, not many of our young people are involved or register to vote when they are able to do that. I am told that only 35% of 18 to 24 year-olds voted at the last election. Somehow, we need to bring the others into feeling, “We, too, want to be involved. This is our country, our Parliament, our Assembly.” To do that, we must get as many of those people as possible on the electoral register.
Amendment 13 is a very substantial amendment that I hope we will be able to discuss at some stage. Amendment 14 is a very small amendment and provides that each electoral registration officer should go to every school and college in his or her area at least once a year in a voter registration drive. This is not asking a lot. It is a very simple thing. We want young people to vote. Where do we register them but at the schools and colleges where they are? There is nothing in this that is at all suspicious or that noble Lords might feel is a threat. It is the simplest thing. That is why this amendment is so straightforward. We ask that it be included in this new Wales Bill. There is no reason whatever why that should be denied. The electoral registration officer would be under an obligation—it would not just give him an encouragement—to ensure that every single school and college had at least the opportunity once a year to register.
The amendment is very simple and has been approved by many. Even today, there is another letter from the leaders of the four parties in the Welsh Assembly: the Conservatives, Labour, Plaid Cymru and Liberal Democrats. They all signed it. They want this. Who are we or the Electoral Commission to deny the people of Wales what they themselves want? I am so delighted to see the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Coventry with us today. I think he will speak on behalf of the Archbishop of Wales, Barry Morgan. The Church is behind this. Every single organisation approached has given it their support—every single one. Not a single voice will deny this. So why on earth can we not see this amendment included—happily, without a great arm-twisting or anything like that—in this Wales Bill? I leave it there but remember: if we deny the people of Wales, the Parliament of Wales and the organisation of Wales a voice, then who knows what the consequences might be. I beg to move.
Lord Lexden (Con)
My Lords, these amendments deserve, and indeed enjoy, wide support. I added my name enthusiastically to them, just as I backed my noble friend’s previous amendments in Committee. Surely it is our duty to do everything we can to help raise the low level of electoral registration among our young people. In one part of our country in which I take a particularly deep interest, Northern Ireland, a striking success has been achieved. Under its schools initiative programme, officials working for the chief electoral officer visit the best part of 200 schools each autumn.
The Chief Electoral Officer for Northern Ireland, Mr Graham Shields, has described the initiative as,
“very successful in improving the rate of registration amongst our young people”.
As a passionate unionist, I believe strongly that success in one part of our country should be emulated in others. Indeed, what should any sensible person do, having seen positive evidence of success? The answer surely has to be, “Copy it”. Mr Shields himself has told us that he has,
“no doubt that our success will be similarly replicated in Wales”.
As my noble friend has reminded us, across the political spectrum in Wales the feeling is unanimous. “Give us the means to get more young people on the electoral register”, the parties in Wales say—and surely we must heed them.
The case is overwhelming, and I urge the Government either to adopt the amendments or to take action themselves to achieve the objective embodied in them. Franklin Roosevelt said,
“The real safeguard of democracy is … education”.
Where more obviously to advance education about democracy than in our nation’s schools, particularly now, when—here I look at my noble friend Lord Tyler—the extension of the right to vote to 16 year-olds is an idea whose time may be coming?
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her reassurance. I now know that we can go ahead with the discussions between the Electoral Commission and the Welsh Assembly. Together they will make sure that every one of the 22 EROs in Wales fulfils that empowerment—I would call it an obligation—to enter schools to make sure that the numbers registering are far better than they have been in the past. In saying that, I pay tribute to Bite the Ballot and other organisations that have woken us up to the importance, not only in Wales but throughout the UK, of re-engaging young people with politics and life generally in the community. I look forward to Third Reading, when we might even hear some more from the Minister. I hope that we have, with this amendment, at least made an important intervention. Some might remember that I have put forward a Private Member’s Bill, also in the same direction. In 1911, there was a stand-off between another Welshman and this House; that was David Lloyd George. I do not compare myself at all with him, but at least we have today had a new approach. I hope that it will be of benefit not only to Wales—and we are going to keep an eye on this one—but also to the whole United Kingdom. I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Wales Bill
Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts(9 years, 7 months ago)
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“Part 1AVoter registration Power of Secretary of State to make regulations for data sharing
(1) The Secretary of State shall by regulations impose a duty on government bodies requiring those bodies to provide specified information to registration officers in Wales for the purposes of electoral registration.
(2) Regulations under subsection (1) must include as government bodies the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency, the Department for Work and Pensions, HM Passport Office and the National Health Service.
(3) Regulations made under subsection (1) shall include the provision of data collected by specified government bodies by virtue of specified applications, which must include applications for new or renewed driving licences, Disability Living Allowance, Jobseeker’s Allowance, Employment and Support Allowance, new or renewed passports, and to register with a GP (as applicable to the specified government body).
(4) Registration officers shall use the specified information received in relation to a person—
(a) if the specified information received contains all of the information required, to register that person on the appropriate electoral register or registers; or(b) if the specified information does not contain all of the information required, to make further enquiries of that person to receive the information required to register that person on the appropriate electoral register or registers.(5) For the avoidance of doubt, nothing in this section shall give any government body the power to share any information about a person without that person’s consent.
(6) In this section—
“electoral register or registers” means the registers in section 9 of the Representation of the People Act 1983;
“specified applications” means any applications made by a person potentially eligible to be registered to vote as are specified in regulations made under section 1(1); and
“specified government bodies” means any government bodies specified in regulations made under section (1)(1).”
Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)
My Lords, I will also speak to Amendments 20 and 61.
I begin by recalling some friends, who moved to live near Llanuwchllyn in Merionethshire, as it was. At the bottom of a farm field was a swiftly running stream. Glen, the wife, had six children. People said, “You must fence off the stream to safeguard your children”. She said, “No, I will not fence it, I will teach them to swim; by teaching them to swim, they will be able to survive whatever the circumstances”. So it is, I think, with young people today. We cannot safeguard them in every possible way, although we would like to. We would like to save them from every harm, but they must go out into a world that is full of threats and dangers. In this world they must survive—they must swim in the tide of destruction and total despair. They need to feel part of society and committed to its well-being.
Although it is not in this Bill, there was a suggestion on the previous day of this debate that we should think of reducing the voting age from 18 to 16. There was widespread agreement in the Committee that by reducing the age to 16, young people could become more a part of their communities and committed to the well-being of these communities. However, if they are to vote, they must first be registered to vote. Without the most accessible of methods being used, there will be many thousands of them who will not be on those registers. That means that their voices will not be heard. That is why Amendments 19 and 20 are so important.
The Electoral Commission found that only 44% of young people voted in the 2010 election, and only just over 50% were registered. That percentage of registration—just over half—shows that the present registration system is not working and cannot be defended. With an election on the horizon in a matter of months, surely we should move speedily to ensure that as many youngsters as possible are able to vote when that election comes. A maximum registration grant has been offered to some local authorities by the Cabinet Office. There are 22 local authorities in Wales, but I have heard of only one—Ceredigion—that has dealt with this particular grant and the amount was only £1,700. We must find out how it is possible to maximise the number of people on the register.
I am proud to be honorary president of the Bite the Ballot organisation. It is travelling throughout the country, trying to register as many young people as it can. In February of this year, it registered more than 35,000 young people in a matter of days. When they reach the age of 18, they will take their places automatically on the register. We understand that in the Scottish referendum more than 100,000 young people between the ages of 16 and 20 registered. Bite the Ballot’s efforts cost, I am told, 25p per registration. The Electoral Commission’s charge is £25, not 25p, per registration. New ways have been found and trodden, and now we must adopt them ourselves.
The United States enacted its national voter registration legislation in 1993—the “motor voter” initiative. Whenever a person, young or old, signed up for, say, a passport, a driving licence, national insurance or work and pensions, there would be on the form another box asking whether they wished to be included on the voter register. All they had to do was put a tick in that box. It was the simplest thing possible to get them on the register and enable them to vote. We can do it. It can be done. When people sign to donate, say, a kidney, they could place a tick on the forms. It is the easiest thing possible and would be without any great cost. People tell me that it will cost a lot of money, but how much do door-to-door canvassers cost? I suggest that we could even make a profit from this new method of signing up people on the register. In the new Northern Ireland schools initiative, 50% of young people signed up.
If we value the vote, it is our obligation to ensure that the utmost effort is made to make it possible for people to register. Schools and colleges could be visited and, with a person’s consent, the electoral registration officer could be provided with details of pupils to enable them to vote at 18. This would be a step in the right direction to enable a person’s voice to be heard as an elector. As I said earlier, they would be learning to swim and tackle the difficulties that they will face, especially in this world which, as we heard in Question Time today, is causing so much heartache. We can help our young people to face those problems. There is no complication. The Chief Electoral Officer for Northern Ireland says that thousands and thousands of youngsters were able to be signed up without any problem.
A week or two ago, the National Assembly of Wales supported such initiatives and the four party leaders—Carwyn Jones, the First Minister; Andrew RT Davies, who leads the Conservatives; Leanne Wood, leader of Plaid Cymru; and Kirsty Williams, the Liberal Democrat leader—signed up to them. They were united in their support, as was the Presiding Officer. The Assembly overwhelmingly voted in favour of this measure being introduced in this Wales Bill. What right have we, as a Parliament in Westminster, to refuse the request of the Assembly in Wales? It is happy with this new registration initiative and asks for our support. I suggest that it would be very churlish and unwise indeed, at a time when devolution is so much in the headlines, to say, “No, Westminster will not allow what Wales wants”. It therefore gives me the greatest pleasure to propose these amendments. I beg to move.
Baroness Gale (Lab)
My Lords, I support Amendments 19 and 20. It is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno. As he said, in 2010, only 56% of 17 to 24 year-olds were registered to vote, and only 44% of them voted at the general election. In Wales in 2011, 35% of young people voted in the Assembly elections, an even lower number than at the general election. So the current low levels of voter registration in Wales, especially among younger voters, combined with the lower turnout in Welsh elections indicate that, with the general election in seven months’ time and the Assembly elections in 2016, this is the right time to be taking the actions set out in Amendments 19 and 20, which explore ways of developing a system in which government bodies provide information directly to the EROs. The aim is to empower citizens to register to vote when filling in, for example, applications for a new or renewed driving licence. People can apply for a provisional driving licence from the age of 15 years and nine months. Other methods could be through passports and benefits, or when registering with a GP.
The noble Lord, Lord Roberts, mentioned the American “motor voter” Act, which seems to have been very successful in 1993. He also mentioned the initiative taken in Northern Ireland, which has been very successful in improving the rate of registration among young people. Virtually all the young people who remain at school or college to complete A-levels or the equivalent are added to the register and this represents approximately 50% of the total eligible population in that age group. The schools initiative is the most productive aspect of the Chief Electoral Officer’s community engagement programme, with 99% of targeted schools visited, and 11,000 16 to 17 year-olds.
Having just moved to a system of online, individual electoral registration, which, according to the Cabinet Office, appears to be flourishing, we believe that Wales has the technological capacity to make this type of data-sharing system flourish. The Labour Party will make a manifesto commitment at the general election to a policy of school and college registration, as my right honourable friend Sadiq Khan, the shadow Justice Minister, announced recently. He said:
“Too many young people don’t register to vote. If we can’t get young people registered, then it makes the task of getting them to vote even more daunting. We need to do more to turn our young people into habitual voters. Improving citizenship education and getting them registered will be crucial”.
Welsh EROs will be required by this amendment to take active steps to increase the number of people registered from underrepresented groups, including the specific step of organising at least one voter engagement session per year, per school or further education college in their area of responsibility. If action is taken as set out in Amendments 19 and 20, it would mean that young people, people with disabilities and ethnic minority groups—those who have been consistently underrepresented in Wales’s democratic processes and are least likely to be present on the electoral register—could take an active part in democratic life. They could be registered to vote and, through voter engagement sessions, encouraged to use their vote.
I suggest that there is no time to lose in making Wales’s voter registration processes as easy and straightforward as possible. Having just moved to a system of online, individual electoral registration, it is even more important. Sixteen year-olds, depending on when their birthday is, can be registered to vote, and if we move to giving 16 year-olds the vote, it would mean that 14 year-olds would, depending on when their birthday is, be on the register. We are talking about individual registration, so a lot of education will be needed.
As the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, said, the four Welsh party leaders signed a letter to the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Wales and the Welsh Office Ministers, expressing support for Amendments 19 and 20. In addition, the Presiding Officer of the Assembly, Dame Rosemary Butler, wishes to offer her full support for this approach. She recently announced her intention to start a national conversation with young people about voting rights, including votes at 16 and the voter registration process, before the end of this year. That is a strong endorsement.
Baroness Randerson
The noble Lord has anticipated my next sentence. In the light of the letter that has been received, I will, of course, liaise with Members of the National Assembly, because it is very important to ensure that their views are taken into account. In the light of these points, I urge my noble friend to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
I am most grateful to my noble friend for her full reply. I understand her reluctance, but I do not accept it and I hope that on Report we will have a very different statement from her. Perhaps I may tackle one or two matters. First, over the next four or five years, we are going to face a referendum on whether we remain in Europe. If that referendum takes place on the register as it is, then half our young people will not be eligible to take part. There will be a general election next May, and unless we move immediately—there is no time to lose—our young people will not have a voice in that election. There is no time to waste. I know that there are “t”s to cross and “i”s to dot, but there is certainly no time for anybody—including the Electoral Commission—just to hope that this will go away. It will not go away.
Secondly—this is the most important point of all—what is the relationship between the Houses of Parliament here in London and the Assembly in Cardiff? Yesterday I asked the Electoral Commission itself who has the last word: is it the civil servants or the Electoral Commission or is it the parliamentarians representing us at every level? The answer, of course, is that it is the parliamentarians. I say to my good friend here that something must be done immediately to come to an understanding. If the Assembly in Cardiff has voted 41 to a handful in favour of this, if all four leaders of the parties there have voted and written in favour of this, then unless we do something, we could well create resentment in Wales that will cause us to have another referendum, this time not in Scotland but in Wales itself. Therefore, I urge the Minister—I know she will; I know her well enough—to move in immediately and perhaps by Report give us a glimmer of light, if not a big flashlight, on this matter. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Wales Bill
Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts(9 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)
My Lords, that was an extraordinary speech, if I may say so. We Gogs certainly have an identity, and we have an identity when we know that the south-east of Wales is spending the borrowing powers that it is acquiring on two tunnels on the M4 and putting a great deal of development into south Wales that we do not see in the north, where we have our own communication problems. To talk in terms of everyone being concerned about their little valley may do very well in south Wales, but I can tell you that in north Wales we feel very differently about it and we welcome the fact that we have regional AMs in the Welsh Assembly who can express a wider view than that of the little valley that they come from.
Although I am not overly enthusiastic about the list system, I will not see it dismissed in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, has done. Nor am I convinced by his idea that we should have proportionality of gender but not of political viewpoint. That would mean that the possibility of a dominant party would swiftly arise. My noble friend said that it would be the Labour Party. I would not go that far, because there are forces at work in some of the Welsh valleys today that are not essentially socialist in their approach. I am against the idea of having first past the post in Wales when it does not exist in Scotland or in Northern Ireland and when we have been fighting hard for it not to exist in England as well.
The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, made the important point that the increasing amount of legislation coming to the Welsh Assembly means that we must have more Members to deal with it. I think that the consensus in Wales at the moment is that there are not enough people to scrutinise the legislation that is going through.
The noble Lord talked about scrutiny. The fact is that this is about not just primary legislation going through but primary legislation without the advantage of a second Chamber. Your Lordships will recall that I suggested earlier that we should surely be working towards a federal, single-tier Parliament for the whole of the United Kingdom, with committees for Wales, Scotland, England and Northern Ireland that could scrutinise the legislation that comes through. As I said, if we have English votes for English laws that have to go through the scrutiny of this House, that will be a considerable advantage compared to single parties putting through legislation without adequate scrutiny. On primary legislation in Wales, there is a lot to be done, but what is not to be done is what the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, suggests in his amendment. I wholly support everything that my noble friend Lady Humphreys so ably said.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)
My Lords, I would welcome further explanation from the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, regarding his amendment. When he suggests that two Members should be elected from 40 constituencies, should the elector have one vote or two in that election?
Lord Anderson of Swansea
Basically, whether it should be one or two votes is a matter that should be left to the Assembly. My position is that all these arrangements should be left, so far as possible, to the Assembly. It has mature politicians and it is for them to make those decisions.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
My Lords, perhaps I might reply to my great colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, by saying that if you have only one vote as against two, the whole composition of the Assembly, including the one that is to make the further arrangements, will be totally distorted.
Baroness Gale (Lab)
My Lords, once again we have had a very interesting debate on how big the Assembly should be and how many seats it should have. I think that this debate has been going on since 1999, when the first Assembly sat. We know that many changes have been made in the Assembly that give it greater responsibilities, with increased powers to make decisions in Wales for Welsh people.
Many calls have been made about the number of Assembly Members. A number of reports have been published saying that 60 Members are insufficient to deal with holding the Executive to account. Increasing the number of Assembly Members has been endorsed by the Electoral Reform Society Cymru and by the Richard commission in 2004. In addition, we know that the current Presiding Officer, Dame Rosemary Butler, has endorsed this. The Richard commission said that there should be 80 seats. Silk 2 argued for the same and stated:
“The size of the … Assembly should be increased”.
In October 2013, the Electoral Reform Society and the Changing Union project published their report Size Matters and argued that there should be 100 Members, based on examination of legislatures across Europe and the competences for which the Assembly is now responsible.
As other noble Lords have said, there are only 42 Back-Benchers, which means that the ability to scrutinise legislation is severely curtailed owing to the capacity issues experienced by those Back-Benchers. We have noted that other noble Lords said earlier in the debate that the Assembly is small in relation to the Scottish Parliament, the Northern Ireland Assembly and other legislatures across the world. As the legislation becomes more complex, there is a necessity for our politicians in Wales to develop areas of specialist expertise. That is difficult for most Back-Bench AMs, as they are members of more than one committee and it is difficult to build up expertise. In debating this Bill, we will be discussing tax legislation—a new and complicated area where it will be essential that adequate scrutiny takes place. If the recommendations of the areas to be devolved from Silk 2 are taken up, there will obviously be still further pressure on Assembly Members.
Wales Bill
Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts(9 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)
My Lords, it is quite thrilling to hear the unanimity of those who have spoken, and our support for the Bill. We should show our appreciation of those who went before us and who fought on these issues, such as the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, and the late Lord Richard Livsey, who were here for the last major debate on Welsh government. Perhaps we can send Gwilym Prys-Davies—he is still alive, you know—our regards at this time. There are others one cannot name.
I was going to spend a long time arguing that we should increase the number of Assembly Members from 60 to 80. I do not need to do that; the case has already been made. What we have to do now—and here I shall come into conflict with one of my colleagues—is to decide how we are going to reach that figure of 80. In Scotland, of course, we have the single transferable vote for local government. I have fought for this all my life. I do not know whether I would win the argument in this House, but certainly I might try it. At the moment, we have 40 constituencies, each electing one Member by first past the post. The remaining 20 are in five regions and, in order to get some proportionality, we have the sharing of the vote there, which seems to work quite fairly—as fairly as anything we could devise at present. One suggestion was that there should be two-Member constituencies. Let me give one or two examples.
The noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, of course, represented Merthyr Tydfil, which used to be a two-Member constituency. The Tories never stood a chance there. It was always Liberal, and elected Keir Hardie. It never gave the minor party any chance at all. It had gone, of course, by 1929. The only one I can cite at the moment is Blackburn. In 1929 Blackburn was a two-Member constituency. Both socialists were elected and they polled 37,000 and 35,000 votes, but the Liberal and the Conservative polled 35,000 and 34,500 votes. It was winner takes all. To have that sort of arrangement would not be democratic or representative at all. We get it in local government sometimes. We get two-member wards and three-member wards and it is usually the same party that takes all the seats. I do not think that that is going to be acceptable to this House or to the people of Wales.
Lord Wigley
When I spoke earlier noble Lords may recall that I, too, had a preference for STV as a system, but I put forward the idea of two Members to each constituency—in the context not of an 80-Member Assembly but of a larger Assembly where there would still be a list, a presence that would bring proportionality or at least something approaching it.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
I very much look forward to having the debate when we come to that amendment in Committee. I am sure that noble Lords see the argument that simply having two-member wards or two-Member constituencies would deny us fair representation.
We come then to the question which has been debated here, which says that a candidate cannot stand for a constituency seat as well as for a list seat. Delighted I am—that is a good Welsh way of saying it—that we are going to make it legal for a Member to stand for a regional seat, a list seat, as well as for a constituency seat. I do not quite agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, said, that we simply do that so that those who are defeated at one level are successful at another level. Candidates are generally chosen for their profile and how they are able to contribute to the work of the Assembly if elected. What is wrong with trying to enable your most outstanding candidates to be elected on a first past the post system or a regional list system? We want the best people in the Assembly, and that is made easier by this recognition of dual candidacy.
In Wales, most of us vote for five different authorities: Europe, Westminster, Cardiff, the unitary authority and our community council. Are we voting too often? I am not going to deny anybody, but could we not merge the votes for, say, the community council and Europe, so that we do not go to the polls five times when we could have just the same democratic influence by going less often? I would even approve of elected local health authorities. I do not suggest that they be elected on another day, but that they could be linked so that we can make the most of these election days.
I now turn to finance and how the funding of elections and of constituency campaigns needs to be looked at in Wales. On the membership of parties, I do not have figures for Wales alone, but only those for the United Kingdom. In 1990 the Conservative Party claimed a million members. In 2011 it had 130,000 members. Membership has crashed, and not only there. In 1990 Labour claimed 311,000 members and this year it claimed 193,000 members. The Liberal Democrats had 77,000 members and now we have 49,000 members.
Diminishing membership means that fewer people are able to have more influence than before. The mass membership has gone. I remember being invited to speak to a women’s afternoon meeting—it was not Liberal, it was Conservative—and 300 people were going to be there. We do not have that now. You would have had fundraising with Christmas fairs, whist drives and regular party branch meetings, which brought in the money. Who pays now for the expenses of our candidates at elections? Where does their party funding come from?
The coalition agreement has a statement in it which refers to,
“reforming party funding in order to remove big money from politics”.
We need a thorough review of party funds. I have here the names of the top donors for one quarter of 2014. I will not read those names but one contributed £1.5 million to the Conservative Party—in one quarter. Two others contributed £500,000 each to the Scottish National Party while the unions, of course, contributed very generously to the Labour Party. Now, he who pays the piper pipes the tune, so we should look at this. Especially in a Welsh Assembly, who pays and where is the influence?
The turnout in Welsh Assembly elections has never been 50%. In 1999 it was 46.4%, in 2003 38%, in 2007 43%, and in 2011 41%. The decreasing turnout over the past 50 years at all elections is a dangerous signal indeed because it means that with small branch and party memberships, and those people who are generous in their party contributions, an unhealthy influence is possible. I have presented a Voter Registration Bill, which I hope will be debated in the coming Session. In February 1974, 70% of 18 to 24 year-olds voted in the general election but, of the 5.6 million young people in the UK at present, only half are registered to vote and of that number only 24% are certain to vote. Why is that? It is because millions of citizens, especially young people, see politics as boring, out of touch, elitist, corrupt, complicated and unrepresentative. Such a small number of people are holding the reins of power now but it does not have to be that way. Our democracy can, and should, be something that everyone understands and has a stake in.
The Bill which I have presented is aimed especially at teenagers, encouraging them to register to vote and encouraging electoral registration staff to work with schools to ensure that every possible student is registered to vote. Northern Ireland already leads on this, where it is a schools initiative. As I will propose in the Bill, Wales needs this new way of registration to encourage all our young people, as well as everybody else who is eligible to vote, to cast their votes. The Welsh Assembly must belong to the people, not to a small number of them. It must be seen to be responsive to the people, not to small political parties or wealthy individuals. We have an awful lot to discuss on the coming Bill and I look forward very much to bringing these suggestions forward.
Wales: Cost of Living
Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts(10 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)
My Lords, I, too, appreciate the opportunity to speak in this debate, and thank the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, for providing it.
We have heard many statistics, and I shall not add to them, only to say that of the four countries of the UK, Wales is the poorest. We have 73% of the average wage of the rest of the United Kingdom; for instance, when the average income in London was £27,000, in Wales it was £17,000. This has been the case over the centuries; it is not something new. I particularly enjoyed the book written by the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, Something Must Be Done, about the valleys of south Wales during the depression before the Second World War. We were struggling in poverty in those terrible years. It is a historical insight into the poverty of south Wales that goes on from generation to generation.
There has been a chance to turn this round. We have objective 1 funding for the valleys and west Wales, which brought some hope. I am not sure it was always spent in the best way, but at least it was some European income for Wales. Anybody who says that we should withdraw from Europe and that Wales would be better off is doing Wales a tremendous disservice. We have heard before that the money we pay into Europe could be directed to the poorest. It did not happen in the past and it would not happen now. I am sure the noble Baroness will agree that the link with Europe is absolutely essential.
Not only do we need to keep the link with Europe, we need to keep the link with our partners across the border in England. Wales has 166 miles of border with England; Scotland has 96. Our border is a very busy one, and the links between north Wales and Merseyside prove that. There was a time when Lerpwl—Liverpool—was regarded as the capital of north Wales. There were so many Welsh people in Liverpool that the streets were named after them. The biggest chapels with the largest congregations were not those in Wales but the ones in Liverpool. You go to Liverpool and what are the names of the stores? TJ Hughes, Owen Owen and Lewis’s were founded by Welsh families. That link has been there for many, many years.
In Wales, we depend on hospitals such as Broadgreen, the David Lewis Northern Hospital, the Royal Liverpool University Hospital and Clatterbridge. When there was talk of removing the link between Wales and the Walton Neurological Centre, there was an outcry in north Wales because that is where we were, over the years, sending patients in need of that sort of treatment.
We have depended on Liverpool and the north-west, but so have they depended on us. Where would the workforce of the Wirral be without Airbus, which is over the border in Wales? There would be 7,000 jobs lost there if we decided to dig Offa’s Dyke again. Where would my town of Llandudno be without the hundreds of thousands of visitors who pour in from the rest of the UK? We need one another; it is a mirage to say that we do not. My noble friend Lady Humphreys was a teacher in Liverpool, as were many thousands of other Welsh women and men. We sent our teachers there; we belong to one another.
Not only must we keep links with Europe and with our friends across the border but we must take care of our communities, which are now deprived of essential facilities. Try to find a post office in some of our villages: you cannot buy a postage stamp there, or a loaf. The school has closed; the teacher lives miles away; the ministers and doctors are no longer in our villages. Try getting petrol between Betws-y-Coed and Tremadoc. Unless you have to go through Penrhyndeudraeth you are lost. We have got to keep these communities alive because the 73% of people on low incomes have to spend such a large proportion of their income or pension going to places that are now farther away. The links, and the need to keep our communities, are essential.
Wales: Financial Powers
Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts(10 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Randerson
The noble Lord has asked two essential questions. My colleague the Secretary of State for Wales has worked extremely hard to ensure that this report has had a positive response from the UK Government. I remind the noble Lord that there was an agreement in October 2012 between the Welsh Government and the UK Government on the future of the Barnett formula. The agreement was that there would be a review process at each spending review, and that if there was future convergence—if that started again—then it would be dealt with by the two Governments working together.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
My Lords, can the Minister tell me whether the question for a referendum will be devised by the Westminster Parliament or by the Welsh Assembly in Cardiff? Secondly, does she have any idea of a timetable for the referendum and the implementation of whatever it might decide?
Baroness Randerson
I thank my noble friend for those questions. We will provide for the referendum by primary legislation here in Parliament but it will be the responsibility of the Assembly to trigger the referendum, and it is right that the timing should lie in their hands. In relation to the actual question, there will be discussions between the UK Government and the Welsh Government but it will be for the Electoral Commission to study any suggested question and to provide advice, in the way that occurred at the previous referendum in Wales.
Empowerment and Responsibility: Financial Powers to Strengthen Wales
Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Roberts of Llandudno
My Lords, I appreciate very much the opportunity to speak again on these matters; as we have heard, this is one of a series of debates we are holding. The Silk commission is the natural progression of what has been happening in Wales over the past century. It is a natural development, not an explosion, in Wales; perhaps it is because we are a more reasonable people that we act in such a way. You could go back to the century before last—although perhaps I should not in a time-limited debate. However, you can go back to ET John, a century ago, with his first Bill for a Welsh parliament, and then on to all the developments that we have had in education, such as the University of Wales, and with health boards and the setting up of the county councils. There have been myriad developments over the past century and the previous one as well. The former Secretary of State for Wales, Jim Griffiths—whom we admire whichever party we are from—did a tremendous amount. Others have had a hand in developments such as the setting up of the Council for Wales and Monmouthshire, with Huw T Edwards as its chairman, and the setting up of the first Welsh Office, in its embryonic sense; before Jim Griffiths of course, the Home Secretary shared the responsibility of being in charge of Wales.
However, these are different days. We have our own, very vibrant, television channel, which has done so much to safeguard the Welsh language, and the Welsh school movement. It is gradual but certain development, and last year of course we had the referendum that gave us more authority in 20 defined areas. We are on our way. We are not going as fast as some would like us to go but I think we are going as fast as it is possibly wise to go. Some might not agree with me, but we are on our way to having more responsibility and authority over our own affairs.
There is a great deal of unfinished business. I brought up three things with financial implications in a debate a wee while ago, which we have to look at again. What is the future of the television services in Wales? When will the DCMS and the BBC lose their grip and the Welsh Assembly Government take responsibility and have financial responsibility? We have problems there, and there are strong financial implications.
Then we have Welsh Water. I and others remember the great outburst when the Welsh valley, Tryweryn, was drowned and Liverpool took our water without any payment or anything. How are we now going to have authority over the water supplies, the rivers and the reservoirs, of Wales? There are great financial implications there.
I have worried about cross-border issues many times in the Chamber. The Welsh border with England is about 160 miles long. The Scottish border with England is only 96 miles. The problems of border responsibility are much greater for Wales than they are between Scotland and England.
The health service is another issue. It is much easier for us in north Wales to go to Liverpool or Manchester than to go to Cardiff or Swansea. Whatever happens, we have to keep these links with the north-west of England in a healthy state.
Then there is transport in Wales. The Welsh border is woven with railways and roads from the north to the south. You could never dig Offa’s Dyke again because the transport system would go berserk. The border issues mean that, whatever decision we take, in Wales we must always keep that link, in a healthy and positive way, with those on the other side of it.
We need the wisdom of Solomon or the magic of Merlin to be able to resolve some of the border issues, but they all affect Welsh revenue. How much revenue we are going to have, how we are going to dispense it and what taxation systems we bring in under the auspices of the Welsh Government are all involved.
I make one plea. I do not see independence for Wales as our final destination. I see a more federal establishment where, as now, the devolved issues in Wales—education, health and so on—remain entirely under the authority of the Welsh Assembly Government. Things such as defence would remain the responsibility of the Parliament of the United Kingdom: the four nations represented here at Westminster.
Where are we going with our devolution? I worry about the result of the Scottish referendum in a year or so. If Scotland, with 59 Members of Parliament, withdrew from the UK Parliament, you would have here what amounted—to some people’s delight, but not to mine—to a permanent Conservative majority. If that happened, the people of Wales would be very, very unhappy. At the moment, we have only seven Conservative Members for Wales—more than the Liberals, we admit—with a majority of Labour Members. The people of Wales would find life pretty intolerable under a permanent Conservative Government. I plead with the people of Scotland to vote no in their referendum for Wales’s sake.
We will have to tackle these issues, and not always by ourselves. Some things we in Wales can do, but for other things we are dependent on what happens in Europe, in the world and in financial circles. So we advance with care and with a wide vision, saying and realising that we are not absolute masters of our own destiny.
Welsh Government: Tax-varying Powers
Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Roberts of Llandudno
My Lords, first, I very much welcome an old friend to her position as Minister for Welsh affairs in this House. With all the changes that we are seeing in relationships within the UK—some constitutional and others possibly economic—is it not time for the Government to establish a working group of all four nations to discuss the problems that might arise and to prepare for them, without having to rush in when the time comes without thinking them through thoroughly?
Baroness Randerson
I thank the noble Lord for his comments. However, now is not the time to take a comprehensive look at devolution in the round for all the nations simply because measures are in place in each of the three nations in terms of the development and progress of devolution. We therefore have to wait for those current developments to settle down before we look at devolution as a whole outcome.
Wales: Devolution
Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Roberts of Llandudno
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Randerson for introducing this debate. Secondly, how refreshing to hear from the Labour Benches a call from the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, to change the Barnett formula. The Labour Government were there for 13 years, and they did nothing at all about this revision, so I hope that his voice will carry in the chambers of the Labour party.
I also suggest that in Wales it is not revolution; it is evolution. We tackle things thoroughly. We might not always be as incautious as others want us to be. Some 120 years ago Cymru Rydd, Wales of Tomorrow, had people such as Lloyd George and Tom Ellis at the helm. They dreamt their dream, and that dream was home rule for Wales. That did not come immediately, and even today it has not come to the extent that some of them would have liked. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and my noble friend Lord Thomas were there on the night when the referendum result came in from Carmarthen in 1997. There I was in the BBC studio in Bangor and we were losing, until all of a sudden the voice from Carmarthen said that we were to have our Assembly. The dream of those people 120 years previously had been realised.
There has been gradual development over the years. The distinguished Huw T Edwards, the first chairman of the Council for Wales and Monmouthshire, who was originally from Penmaenmawr but latterly of Flintshire, contributed so much. What a debt we owe to the first Secretary of State for Wales, Jim Griffiths. Things have happened gradually, but they have been made to happen by people who knew where they were going. There were times when the waters were rather still, but then we had Welsh disestablishment.
Over the years we have had legislation dealing with courts, development, language, education and broadcasting—all of these came in time. We owe those who fought for them—and I am sorry that I was not always on their side—a great deal for their efforts over a century to ensure that Wales remains an independent country with its own culture and its own contribution to make. I would love to mention them all. I heard a sermon on Sunday that spoke of “a mighty cloud of witnesses”. In the history of Wales we have had just such a mighty cloud, and some of them are in this Chamber today. We owe them and others a tremendous debt.
We must always search for the best and the most acceptable way forward. As I said, I well remember the first referendum, held on 1 March 1979. Four voted against for every one who voted for. Even though we had headquarters ready in Cardiff, we did not need to occupy them until the results came in 1997. I pay tribute to the Labour Government at that time who, early on in their programme, kept their promise of a referendum on devolution in Wales. A few months ago we had another referendum that approved full Assembly powers for the 20 devolved areas appertaining to the Welsh Government, and so the evolution continues. The Silk commission, deciding on future responsibility, is the next step forward—indeed, not just a step but a milestone on the road. The full answer will not come at once, but we will move ahead if we have tolerance and retain our dreams and aspirations.
I shall mention three areas that will have to be kept in our sights as we move forward, because they have financial as well as cultural implications. Last year there was an agreement between the BBC, S4C and the DCMS about the funding for television broadcasting in Wales. The time might come when the Welsh Assembly says, “We ourselves want to be responsible for broadcasting in Wales”. We have to keep the door open so that no financial agreements can strangle any move on the part of the Assembly Government to move in that direction.
The second area is water. I am sorry that my great friend Richard Livsey, Lord Livsey of Talgarth, is not with us. He dreamt a dream about water supplies in Wales. I remember debates in 2006 in the Welsh Government about how we wanted more authority over water in Wales. We have plenty of water in Wales at present but England does not need it today, although it might tomorrow. We have to decide who is going to regulate, distribute and charge for water in Wales. No new agreement must restrict the ability to discuss with our neighbours on every side of the border what we are going to do and how we are going to act in any situation.
The Silk commission notes cross-border agreements, which is the third area. This might be essential for us, especially in north and mid-Wales. Over the years I have dealt a lot with hospitals and medical centres on both sides of the border. We appreciate Alder Hey Hospital in Liverpool, which treats children’s ailments; the Walton Centre, again in Liverpool, which deals with neurological complaints; the Christie Hospital in Manchester; and the orthopaedic hospital in Oswestry—and all of them are on the other side of the border. There are financial implications, and nothing that we do must hinder the co-operation that has been a lifesaver for so many decades. There is much more to be said.
Governments change. People even change their minds. They think in different ways. We mature in different ways. We must always be ready to follow our dreams and think what the sensible way is to move ahead at that particular time. I thank my noble friend Lady Randerson for introducing this debate. I hope—indeed, I am sure—that it will not be the last that we hear of the Silk report in this Chamber.
Devolution: Wales
Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts(12 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Roberts of Llandudno
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to resolve issues arising from the devolution of powers to the National Assembly for Wales.
The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)
My Lords, the National Assembly for Wales is now able to pass laws in all 20 devolved subjects. The Commission on Devolution in Wales—the Silk commission—is looking at how the Welsh Government can be made more accountable for what they spend and at any modifications to the present constitutional arrangements that would enable the Welsh devolution settlement to work more effectively.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
I thank the Minister for his reply. With an increasing number of powers being devolved to the Assemblies in Wales and Northern Ireland and the Parliament in Scotland, what means are there to inform us of what decisions are taken at that level in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland? Moreover, with increasing devolution, what role does the Minister see for this House when it is composed of Members from Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, there are regular exchanges at official and ministerial level where information is given as to legislation passing through this Parliament which has relevance for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and there are close links the other way. With regard to parliamentary and assembly exchanges, the Calman commission, on which I sat, thought that it would be advantageous if there was a greater flow of information between parliaments and assemblies, but recognised that that would be a matter for the parliaments and assemblies and not for government. On the role of your Lordships' House in relation to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, it clearly has a role in examining matters which in the case of Wales are non-devolved. We have done so since 1999 and I can imagine that we will continue to give it the scrutiny that we would expect of a revising Chamber.