King’s Speech

Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts

Wednesday 8th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

My Lords, we search in vain for any mention of immigration reform in His Majesty’s Speech, even though, earlier on, one of five primary priorities for the Government was stopping the small boats. Yet there is no mention. The Government seem content, somehow, with what they are doing at present. Even though thousands of Home Office immigration decisions are overturned on appeal, there is no promise of reform. Suella Braverman even told the Tory conference last year:

“I would love to have a picture on a page of the Telegraph with a plane taking off to Rwanda. That’s my dream; it’s my obsession”.


The word was “obsession”. I question whether UK policies should be determined by a Minister’s obsessions and not by rational decision.

This is the same person who told us last week that homelessness was a chosen lifestyle, and that tents should be removed from the streets. Fellow human beings are treated as if they are an inferior brand of humanity. The proposal to use the Penally camp and Napier barracks as asylum accommodation goes in reverse of what reports said as far back as September 2020. They were not favourable. Preparing accommodation designed for other purposes to be used for asylum is very difficult at ordinary times, let alone during a pandemic, when the challenges are even greater. The barracks at both Napier and Penally had previously been used to house military personnel for short periods of one to two weeks, and required considerable renovation to make them suitable for relatively long-term asylum housing. It was therefore surprising that the Home Office gave them not the time required but only two weeks to make each site operational, with very little consultation. Similarly, the “Bibby Stockholm” barge, rented at £18 million a year to house 500 asylum seekers, has been empty for at least the last two months since legionnaires’ disease was discovered there.

Although Tories claim that curbing net inflow of migrants is a critical issue for voters and that immigration is something that they want to stop, new surveys prove that there is a much more positive response to immigration. People are far in advance of the Government. Refugees and asylum seekers are as much human beings as every one of us in this Chamber and they should be respected. Not one of us chooses our place of birth or the conditions in which we grow and the opportunities we enjoy or are denied. I am very proud of my Welsh background, but as one of the human family with many languages and cultures, I need to look at the world around. It might be to Ukraine, Afghanistan, Syria, Gaza or even our fellow nations of the UK. They are our family: brothers, sisters, children. To act otherwise is to deny the law of creation and humanity. It is our opportunity to make the most of these relationships and to strengthen them. Unfortunately, in recent years for imagined electoral gain, words and actions have divided and separated. Let us put a halt to this and aim to heal and unite. Mae pob un yn yr un teulu—every one of us is a part of the same human family.

European Court of Human Rights

Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts

Monday 5th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness; I entirely agree with the importance of dialogue.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

My Lords, is this not the time for people to come together instead of separating from each other, especially when we see what is happening in Ukraine and so on? This is our opportunity to unite people, not divide them. I hope the new Cabinet and the new Prime Minister will bear that in mind.

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

I entirely understand the sentiments expressed by the noble Lord.

European Convention on Human Rights

Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts

Monday 18th July 2022 Lords Chamber

Tabled by

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to withdraw the United Kingdom from the European Convention on Human Rights.

[Baroness Humphreys (LD)]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend, and with his permission, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.

Human Rights and Civil Liberties

Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts

Thursday 2nd July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

My Lords, this has been a fascinating debate with so many different spheres and approaches. I was certainly struck by the most impressive speech of the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, and by the fact that he admits to being an atheist and a recovering Catholic. I suggest that he might find the Welsh Methodists a little bit more attractive. His eloquence would sway the Welsh pulpit. I will talk to him about these things after the debate.

I do not wish to go back to the European convention but to Magna Carta 800 years ago. Since then, the battle for rights and liberties has continued in the United Kingdom. We had the Great Reform Act 1832, and, since then, a wide diversity of people have been enfranchised. It does not matter whether you are male or female, anyone over 18 now has the vote. It is wonderful. We believe that having the vote gives us a voice and an influence. In Scotland, the 16 year-olds came out in their thousands and that has brought to light a greater feeling for democracy and the involvement of young people. Of course, that is being carried on in the United Kingdom, where we have a campaign to try to bring the voting age down to 16.

Votes are important—yes, every vote—but are all votes equal? In some constituencies an MP can be elected with less than 30% of the vote. In my own constituency of Aberconwy, 58% of folk voted against the sitting MP but he won because 42% voted for him. Over in Anglesey, 68% voted against the sitting MP but that is all right because 32% voted for him. Is this democracy? In Wales we have 40 MPs but only four had more than 50% support in their constituencies. Throughout the United Kingdom the Conservatives polled 37% and the rest of us got 63%. That means that they have an overall majority of 12, which is what we have at the present time.

I will be interested to see the Electoral Commission’s judgment not only on the voting but on the money that is being used to fight some of these constituencies. I am sure that at some point we will need to look at the funding of election campaigns. I am told that more than £1 million could have been spent in one or two constituencies. I find it hard to believe but I look forward to that report from the Electoral Commission.

Does the present electoral system give the Government the right—the mandate? When there are only two parties, one will get 51% and the other will get 49%. You have to accept it. But today, with so many parties, the situation is very different. This 37% to 63% is totally undemocratic and cannot be justified. The Government introduce legislation without a mandate. They abolish the railway plan, threaten the Human Rights Act, sell off homes and say that if immigrant nurses are not able to earn £35,000 after five years here, they should be deported—all without a mandate, on a minority vote.

I am honorary president of Bite the Ballot—me, an elderly person, president of this campaigning youth organisation. This year we were so delighted that half a million youngsters were registered to vote for the first time. I thank the team who worked so hard to ensure this. I can now go into schools and colleges and say, “My friends, I want to thank you so much for registering to vote but I have a story to tell you: only one-third of you will vote for a winning candidate. The rest of you might as well have stayed at home and not registered at all because under the present system your vote will not count”. If we are to get rights and liberties for the future, we have to get this right.

We can tell the youngsters, “You might have better luck next time”, but this time the vote of 63% is not carrying any real influence. I say to the Conservatives and people on the other Benches: please think this through. Can you really justify this? You say we had a referendum on AV. Yes, that would be one answer but it was a referendum on a system we do not advocate. Can you say that 37%—a minority—is justified in claiming a mandate to rule the 63%? It just is not. It is not democratic. This 37% have enabled, perfectly correctly under our first past the post system, one individual to enter 10 Downing Street as Prime Minister—power rests with the minority.

I had a letter appointing me to this place some years ago now and it came from 10 Downing Street. But he is there with only 37% and yet he, or whoever is working with him, is able to appoint the people in this House of Lords. Therefore not only is the House of Commons unrepresentative but this House of Lords is as well. I am delighted to be here and I will do my best under the present system of appointment but I would much prefer an elected Chamber where people would feel, “We have a validity. We have a right to be here”. Most of us are here just by a stroke of luck and yet we have rights because of that—but no mandate. Yes, let us rejoice in the human rights, the European convention and so on, and the civil liberties that we have achieved over the years but there is a great deal yet to be done until we are able to say that we are a democracy and the elected Parliament has the mandate to carry out these various pieces of legislation.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts

Monday 1st June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

My Lords, it is difficult for me to deny that the UK is in the middle of a constitutional crisis of earthquake dimensions. We deceive ourselves if we consider the present crisis to be a mere blip that will soon disappear, and that normal service will be resumed. It will not.

I join the many others—the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, has also joined them—who have called for the immediate establishment of a constitutional convention. Mere tinkering will be like putting a sticking plaster on an open wound, and short-term “solutions” will be no solution at all.

The Scottish referendum was a political tsunami that resulted in the incredible election result of 7 May: 56 nationalist MPs were elected. The whole political face of Scotland was transformed, and every policy of this Conservative Government was made to look foolhardy: for instance, retaining four nuclear submarines that are based on the Clyde. Fifty-six elected nationalist MPs, plus the Member for Orkney and Shetland, are against that policy. How on earth is it going to be implemented, with some 56 MPs against and perhaps two in favour?

As for the referendum on European Union membership, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England all might want to vote in different ways. Surely we need a referendum that takes note of the different ways in which the various countries of the United Kingdom want to vote.

There is not only the Scottish question: I can see Wales in turmoil if it is ever alone in partnership with England. It will be in turmoil because we do not want to be 40 constituencies as against more than 500; it just will not work. Whatever happens, this is very important and there will be many consequences. The situation is far too serious. Can this Conservative unionist Government learn to govern in a federal way, because surely it must be in that direction and in that of a constitutional convention that we need to move? The relationships within the United Kingdom must be handled with vision and sensitivity.

I appreciate the devolution developments, and I would also like to say how much I appreciate the developments introduced by Mr Tony Blair, when we had referendums for Scotland and Wales which resulted, of course, in the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. The Government can introduce legislation in the other place even though they have a majority of only 12. We must remember that only 37% of the electorate who voted supported them, and only 24% of the electorate as a whole. One proposal is to redraw constituency boundaries, as if that would solve anything, but they still received only 37% of the vote and a quarter of the total electorate. Does that give the Government a real and legitimate authority?

I read Andrew Rawnsley’s article in yesterday’s Observer, which should make us all think very seriously about how the distortion of the will of the electorate is so blatant in the UK. Perhaps I can speak of Wales, and indeed it would be difficult not to do so. We have 40 constituencies in Wales. In the past, of course, there were just two parties and therefore two candidates in each constituency. You were with the Whigs and the Tories or the Liberals and the Conservatives. When there are only two candidates, there is a clear decision: it is one or the other. It is 50.1% as against 49.9%, but there is a clear decision. However, as we have seen the development of other parties, the results have changed so that we have minority representation. In 1997, of the 40 constituencies in Wales, 30 returned MPs with more than 50% of the vote, with some scoring 80%. On 7 May this year, of Wales’s 40 constituencies, only four returned MPs with more than 50% of the vote. This shows that in 36 constituencies, candidates were elected with minority support. Can we question their legitimacy when there is minority representation? This needs urgent attention. Even those who have previously opposed a more representative system—we have heard some of them in the debate—must surely think again. Can this sort of minority representation really be justified?

Before I conclude, I should also like to say that we must look carefully at the financing of elections and campaigning in the United Kingdom. When I read Andrew Rawnsley yesterday, I learnt that there had been £15 million for the Conservative Party, while my poor party had £3 million. It is becoming an American system where money buys seats. This is something that needs immediate attention, and that is why I am wholeheartedly in favour of a constitutional convention. It should be set up immediately so that its recommendations can be in place by the time we have another general election.

Prisons: Suicide

Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts

Monday 25th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

On the latter issue I will have to write to the noble Lord. On any one day in the Prison Service it is estimated that there are about 1,500 prisoners who are under care and supervision out of concern for the danger of self-harm or worse. I will have to write to the noble Lord about the actual number with mental health issues.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

My Lords—

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

It must be this side’s turn eventually. I declare an interest as chair of the Independent Advisory Panel on Deaths in Custody. Given the importance of properly investigating the deaths, particularly of young people but of anyone who dies unexpectedly in prison, is the Minister satisfied with the level of resources available to the Prisons and Probation Ombudsman to carry out their function and, secondly, does he not agree that it is time that the Prisons and Probation Ombudsman was made statutorily independent of the Ministry of Justice and the Prison Service?

Justice: Sentencing of Young Offenders

Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts

Monday 11th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

As always, the Government listen extremely carefully to this House. In this case, the House was wise, and the Government were wise to listen to it.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

My Lords, do those who have offended and have been penalised in one way or another have greater difficulty in finding jobs when their sentence ends? We know that 23% of young people between 16 and 25 are out of work. How much more difficult is it for those who have offended?

[Lord McNally]

I would have thought that it would be difficult. If you get a criminal record, it becomes a problem in employment. That is why part of the thrust of the Government’s policy on young people offending is to try to keep them out of the criminal justice system and to give those with responsibility in this area greater flexibility in their treatment. As my noble friend has said, it is also a question of making sure that young people are kept in the education system. Where full-time education is not the most appropriate route, apprenticeships and other forms of training should be there.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts

Wednesday 14th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Chichester]

My Lords, I, too, support the amendment. Quite a number of people find it quite hard to find their own voice and need the support of a friend. As a priest I know how many of the clergy spend a lot of time accompanying people and enabling them to speak for themselves: not providing a voice for the voiceless but enabling the voiceless to find a voice. It seems that a lot of people are simply not able to put their own case individually over the telephone and need to have friends and supporters with them. It seems essential that this alternative means, the face-to-face interview, is available for those people so that they can have friends and advocates with them.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

My Lords, I join in supporting the amendment. In recent debates we have spoken about Jobcentre Plus and how, when young people are looking for work, face-to-face interviews are far more effective than sitting before a computer or dealing over the telephone. This also holds true for those who need advice. I understand that all those under the age of 18 will be able to have face-to-face interviews. This should be extended because people are asking for advice at the most vulnerable time in their lives, with turbulent economic situations, job losses and so on. They need advice, and as the right reverend Prelate stated, and as I know as a minister of the Methodist church, the telephone has its uses, a helpline has its uses, but you sometimes need to sit face to face with a person—to have a personal relationship within which they find far greater comfort and guidance than they would otherwise. I am happy to give my support to the amendment.

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

My Lords, perhaps I may intervene briefly once again in these debates, in complete support of the points that have been made, not least by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson and my noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury but to a degree by everyone who has spoken.

As it happens, I have other recent brief experience of this in my capacity as a trustee, along with the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, of the National Benevolent Fund for the Aged, which is concerned with isolated elderly people. We have recently been lobbying Ministers about the apparent assumption that everyone can deal with things on the telephone or through the internet. That is essentially—dare I say it?—a middle-class presumption that does not necessarily apply to the areas that we are talking about now. To their credit, the Ministers whom we have lobbied are, I think I am right in saying, having a round-table discussion tomorrow on how the problem might be dealt with, and I recommend that the Ministry of Justice joins in.

Anyone who has been an MP will have been confronted in their surgery by people who just need to talk to someone, with a sense of the body language, to sort out one to one what may be important in their case, what is not relevant to an appeal and so on. I notice the noble Lord nodding. You can spend an hour listening to people who want to tell you their life story and it is only face to face that you can disentangle the points on which they might have a case. This is important to a lot of people who cannot really fend for themselves. I confess that even I, with a pretty high-quality, advanced education, still prefer, if possible, to go and see someone rather than talk to them on the phone because the body language and the feel of the conversation are important. Therefore, I do not think that we should underestimate these things.

In a curious way, the Government have acknowledged that in the briefing that I have here. It says that, although it is a telephone gateway, there has to be a careful assessment of whether the advice can be provided face to face or over the telephone. Indeed, they have already decided not to include in the single telephone gateway debt, in so far as it remains in scope, discrimination and special educational needs, as well as, I think, community care. What is it that makes these things so different from other forms of advice? There will be many community care cases, and there are also welfare benefit needs, as well as a need for advice on a lot of other aspects of people’s lives. Why is this to be exempted but not the other things? In a way, therefore, I think that the case has been conceded. The costs cannot be large and the need is great, and I think that we are entitled to ask the Government to reconsider this proposal.

Young People: Politics

Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts

Wednesday 14th September 2011 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proposals they have to encourage more young people to engage with democratic institutions.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, the Government want to encourage everyone, young or old, to engage in the democratic process. We all have a role to play. On voter registration, for example, the Government are exploring how online services might be deployed, and across government we are looking at ways of promoting consultations and information on youth-friendly media.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

I thank the Minister for that reply. Does he agree that it is essential that young people feel that their community belongs to them, so that they have a sense of ownership and a voice in shaping that community? In order to achieve this engagement in their communities—and I declare an interest as patron of the youth for democracy campaign, Bite the Ballot—could they not take leadership courses and engage in voter registration there? Young people could have far greater influence than older people on the youth element.

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I will take back to the Cabinet Office the suggestion of specifically recruiting young people to encourage other young people to register. The Cabinet Office has been consulting with youth groups to develop detailed operational policy for individual electoral registration, including ways in which to tackle under-registration. Additionally, the independent Electoral Commission runs public awareness campaigns to encourage voter registration ahead of all major election events.

Prisons: HM Young Offender Institution Feltham

Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts

Wednesday 29th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I am not sure whether that has been fully established, but I will write to my noble friend on the specifics of whether the 1995 recommendations have been fully implemented. Sometimes with these reports, there is a gap between full implementation and actual practicality and resources. However, I know that, in terms of assessing prisoners for cell sharing, and indeed in dealing with prisoners during their time in custody, there has been much improved sharing of information among the various agencies. In the host prison, from the governor downwards, there is now as full as possible an assessment of the prisoner’s susceptibilities that would make it better or not for them to be cell sharers.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

My Lords, following the suicide of failed asylum seekers, what assessment is there of the possibility of such suicides taking place?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, there is constant assessment of suicide risk for anyone who is held in custody. Certainly as far as I understand them, these assessments are very thorough in trying to avoid suicide. On the specific point, which goes slightly wide of the Question, I will look at the issue and write to my noble friend.